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Mystery Chart No. 6
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Tom
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:02 pm    Post subject: Mystery Chart No. 6 Reply with quote

Happy New Year to All on Skyscript:

This native is, perhaps, not as well known as some of our others, but brings something of interest to the table given one of our previous mystery charts.

And, I am belatedly fulfilling a promise made earlier. The is the chart of a woman:

Female
Aug 7, 1955
7:35 PM MST
Phoenix, AZ

112 W 04
33 N 27

ASC 20 Aquarius 03
MC 4 Sagittarius 29

What interests me most about this chart is the psychology of the native, but feel free to comment on whatever you find in the chart.

Enjoy,

Tom


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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
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Location: Finland

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This woman is born seven days later than one of my colleagues and she has the same rising sign, the charts are very similar, so I think I'll not say much so that I will not end up reading the other chart, whose owner I know!

But in this chart, temperament is mostly choleric, and the Almuten of Chart both by the original Ibn Ezra method, and considering only the almuten ruler of the Sun, Moon, prenatal syzygy, Ascendant and PoF, is Saturn in Scorpio, the 10th whole sign house, squaring all those Leo planets. Probably this woman is quite ambitious. I would also say that because there's so many combust planets, she's quite an idealistic, not always seeing things as they are. The realistic and practical side, represented by Saturn, and the idealistic side, represented by the Leo planets are at odds. But Saturn is cadent, so he probably loses the game. Though Mars, Mercury and the Sun are below the horizon, they're so close to the Descendant that I would consider them angular, so the idealistic side is stronger.
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Deb
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Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Tom

I edited your first post to include a graphic of the chart. I’m hoping to have a better look at this tomorrow but in drawing up the chart it was very hard to miss the prominence of Mars on the descendant, together with the Moon in Aries. On account of that I would say that there is a theme of aggression or competition, or conflict, in this woman’s life.

As I’m short of time today, I just wanted to look at the 4th house and its ruler, for an indication of her background. Nothing is placed in the 4th house but its ruler Mercury is in a partile conjunction with Mars and squares Saturn, whilst it is combust the Sun in the 6th house. So I would definitely say that she’s had a hard childhood and difficult parental issues. I have some thoughts about the career but I’ll save those until tomorrow as I have to dash now and mainly wanted to get the chart up into the thread.

Regards,
Deb
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, maybe I am a bit lost afterall Smile What interests me about this chart is that, on the surface of things at least, the Moon is a lot more favourable than the Sun. The Moon is applying to the trine of Venus and Jupiter (MC-ruler), whilst the Sun is poorly placed in the 6th house, conjunct Mercury and Mars and square Saturn.

Because Jupiter is conjunct Venus and receiving the trine of the Moon, I can’t help wondering if her career is connected to domestic issues or feminine activities. Yesterday I was going to suggest that this woman may be known through film, glamour modelling or something sexual or linked to feminine allure (such as jewellery, perfumes, etc), but there is something very ‘hard’ about this chart that has given me second thoughts about that. Also, so much planetary activity takes place under the horizon that I don’t think this is the kind of woman who would actively seek out fame or feel comfortable with it. So then I thought about the comment Dorotheus makes, that an emphasis on an afflicted Venus with Jupiter can bring notoriety rather than fame through the disgrace of relationships (such as prostitution), so I’m going more in that direction now…

But I have a couple of other options that I find hard to dismiss. The first is based upon the fact that the Moon trines Venus/Jupiter, but the benefics are buried in the 6th house and Venus rules the 8th house, so I’m also thinking of the kind of profession that involves crisis or surgery – actually gynaecology would be perfect, but has any female gynaecologist ever become famous? I don’t think so, so common sense is ruling that one out.

The other is that essentially I’d characterise this woman as a fighter. She strikes me as outspoken (Merc conjunct Mars on an angle) and hard hitting (Pluto in 7th, Mars angular sq Saturn), so I think she would be inclined to champion some kind of cause. But on the other hand, Mercury and Mars are both combust and squared by the asc-ruler Saturn, so I don’t see the easy and effective communication of her ideas either (!) I agree with Papretis that she is very choleric, but Saturn is also very dominant and we have a lot of fixidity with Saturn in Scorpio, the ascendant in Aquarius, and the stellium in Leo.

So we have someone who is very fixed in their opinions, with the potential to be very determined. There is a lot of emotional energy and drive (AKA anger), but I think she inclines towards privacy and isolation rather than publicity. With sag on the MC and Saturn the only elevated planet (also ruling the 12th), it would be perfect if she turned out to be a mountaineer or female explorer!

On a more negative level, I don’t think she had a supportative upbringing and her relationships seem to be characterised by conflict and power struggles. She strikes me as having issues with authority figures and so is probably known for rebelling or arguing against something. In some way her career seems linked to her sexuality (or she may use this to pursue a cause or further her own ends).

Sorry if this seems pretty clueless – I’m hoping it will all make a lot more sense to me when we get the feedback!

I'm looking forward to seeing other opinions,

Deb
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Sun Music



Joined: 09 Jan 2007
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Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree: this chart feels "hard".

For the sake of contrast, I'm going to propose a darker, more melodramatic interpretation, building on many of the points that both Papretis and Deb have so expertly identified thus far. So here is the high concept for my Gothic (South) Western Soap Opera …

A hard woman, tough life, a lot of physical strength, self-reliant, someone with strong ideals, perhaps fanatical under duress.

She is seeking physical freedom, the sense of exaltation of conquering the body through tests of endurance, as we can see from the tremendous amount of planetary energy being pushed through Leo. Yet all this wonderful potential is crammed into the 6th House. Inwardly, she would feel like a trapped animal at times.

Deb suggests a number of issues the native has with authority figures / parents. In her youth, the native was a tomboy, rebellious and always up to mischief. She might have endured harsh punishment (for over-stepping the Saturnian boundaries of a rigid family environment). Perhaps she was also the victim of sexual abuse? If so, she would be very confused about her own boundaries, such a trauma periodically expressed as raw, "blind" anger. Self-awareness is not one of her strong points.

As an adolescent she struggles with her idealism. She cannot reconcile the (religious?) precepts of her family and these dirty family secrets, of which she played a part. She flips from hope to despair and back to hope. She wants to tell the story. But how? Can she find a way out? Boys and booze? Perhaps she is shamed by the local community for her antics?

Her sexuality and later motherhood (as a bodily expression of her self worth) is very important to her. In other words, if she can't escape "home" - the labyrinth of rooms she finds herself in - she uses her body to express her power there in an intense way. Children would not only bring her hope (making a fresh start) but also confirm her worth as a human being. We could invert Lilly’s notes on the 6th House and say she is her own physician - she treats herself through her body.

The partnerships she forms seem dysfunctional with the latent possibility of explosive / abusive situations. It's possible at some stage that she is put in a position to fight for her children the only way she knows how, with anything she can lay her hands on. Saturn in Scorpio would simply intensify this. It starts to get weird now …

Back to you at the news desk …

[edited with slight revisions! ]
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###



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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

“Hard” and “a fighter” have been on my mind with this one. She doesn’t feel like much of a ‘lady’.

Strong Fixed influence: Asc., Asc. ruler, Sun and the others with it in Leo. Saturn in Scorpio should be very descriptive of her through the Asc., and it’s tightly square the Sun with a close antiscion relationship. Saturn signifies her, the Sun on the Desc. signifies others in union or combat. She was meant for battles. But Fixed signs can go a long time before expressing or making a move, so it looks like things could build up and then periodically explode. The Aries Moon could be the Cardinal button that sets things off, but its condition as waning Moon does seem to soften that. Its trines to Venus and Jupiter might seem to indicate peace, but Leo isn’t an easy-going and tranquil sign for them. Leo can be quite self-centered, brutish and cruel. I’m not sure what to do with the Moon and its contacts. The Sun-Mars-Mercury conjunction in Leo also doesn’t offer much tranquility. I see the Sun here as 7th house rather than 6th, so there’s some strong angular action for those three planets.

But maybe much of the feistiness comes from others and she needs to deal with it. If the Ascendant is as important for describing the native as is usually claimed, Fixed thought-oriented Aquarius and secretive and stealthy Saturn in Scorpio in the cadent 9th don’t seem to give her much outwardly-directed initiating dynamism. Her Saturn as Asc. ruler square the Sun in 7th and Sun as 7th ruler seems to be hinting at her trying to stop others and inhibit, influence or control them – a reaction to, rather [than]* initiation against, others. The chart gives the feeling that she acts as a doorstop for others. The Moon does add some initiating Cardinal push, though.

There's an annoying voice in my head that wants to call her a man-hating feminist.


*missing word added later


Last edited by ### on Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been holding back but I can't help myself this morning. First I owe, profoundly, every person who contributes to these threads. Limiting my observations to what has been said on this thread I can only tell you how fascinating and illuminating it is to see astrologer after astrologer find so many correct things in the chart, and yet maybe, I'm no mind reader, it isn't exactly what the astrologer had in mind, but they are correct nonetheless. In other words, they have a great handle on the chart, in fact it might be an exquisite grasp on the chart, but they don't know it, yet. This probably makes no sense to the reader, but I'll try to illustrate, without giving anything away by using one of Kirk's comments, although I could do the same with any of the previous posts.

Kirk wrote:


Quote:
She doesn’t feel like much of a ‘lady’.


She's not, but what does that mean? There are many ways a woman can act in such a way that she isn't much like a lady. The trick then, if this can be done, and I don' t think I can do it consistently, is to try to take this observation and flesh it out. What kind of women are not lady-like? Well bruising truck driver types immediately come to mind, but this woman is, in fact quite feminine and very pretty, so we might wish to look at a possible physical description to make such a distinction. Lilly is some help,with his description of Aquarius:.

Quote:
"It presents a squat, thick, Corporature, or one of a strong well composed Body, not tall; a long visage, sanguine Complexion; if Saturn, who is Lord of this house, be in Capricorn, or Aquarius, the party is black in Hair, and in Complexion sanguine with distorted teeth; otherwise I have observed the party is of clear, white or fair complexion, and of Sandy colored hair or very flaxen, and a very pure skin.


What I get from this for a person with Saturn in Leo is one of lighter complexion, and sanguine build and that is reasonably accurate in this case. In the 21st century hair color is easily (and with some - often) changed, and distorted teeth are corrected with orthodontia. But we have here a fair, pretty feminine woman with a nice figure (that's a gift, but Lilly said "well composed body") who is not a lady. Still we have to be careful since nice looking women with great figures are becoming professional wrestlers and boxers. This native is not one of them. So ask ourselves, "what does a good-looking woman who is not a lady act like?"

I could have done this with other observations: Sun, Music and Papretis mentioned idealism. Deb mentioned a few things like a domestic career (yes, but she is not a domestic), and something "hard" about the chart. A couple people mentioned her as a "fighter." Those are accurate, but perhaps not in exactly the way the astrologer intended. When she's revealed, this will become obvious.

Thank you all for participating, and I encourage others to do the same.

Tom
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amelia



Joined: 17 Jun 2004
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aaaaaaaaaaaaaah - just wrote a long post and when I submitted it disappeared. No time now will try again tomorrow.
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###



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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the record: by ‘lady’ I meant a woman who follows the traditional socially preferred standards of feminine graciousness, dignity and style. Key to it is a strong element of self-effacement. Contrary to it would be a more masculine assertiveness and a sharper edge.

After being dazzled by all the Fixed sign influence I’m feeling more movement in the chart now. Asc. ruler Saturn is in the 9th house. Cadent houses – the ‘falling’ houses – carry matters away from one state toward another. The usual 9th house meanings of travel, religion, higher education and publication all have the sense of something moving, especially ideas and concepts. With the Asc. ruler there she has probably been drawn to those areas in some way, probably as a way of changing something about her life or herself. But with a peregrine wandering Saturn in Fixed Scorpio, and maybe with an additional influence of Saturn as ex conditione, it looks like she could have had a slow start, but something kicked in and got her going – as in something coming from a powerful square from a strong Sun and/or Mars. Whole-Sign houses put Saturn in the active angular 10th. Following Bernadette Brady’s idea that we grow into or toward our Whole-Sign chart, maybe there’s another indication of the potential to get Saturn (and her Ascendant, herself) up-and-running.

These mystery charts are among the forum’s best offerings. It’s a great chance to think and blend, guess and ramble. It’s an even greater chance to learn how to drop the fretting about being wrong. That’s when the real progress can be made.
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
For the record: by ‘lady’ I meant a woman who follows the traditional socially preferred standards of feminine graciousness, dignity and style. Key to it is a strong element of self-effacement. Contrary to it would be a more masculine assertiveness and a sharper edge.


And you're right.

Tom
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amelia,

Next time, write out yor post on a word processor and then cut and paste. If you lose it on Skyscript you still have a copy. I do that with longer posts, so the Web doesn't rear up and bite me.

Tom
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amelia



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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Tom. It is what I usually do but that time I was taking the short cut - wanted to post quickly before the answer went up as this was the first time I had got around to looking at one of the mystery charts before the details of the person was revealed!!

Anyway I agreed with the others who said the chart had significant hard elements- in fact I am glad this is a traditional forum so I can say that I don’t think it looks a very nice chart to live with!

I tend to agree with Papretis and Kirk that the conjunction ( or at the very least Mars to the Sun) should be read as if it is on the Descendant. And in my experience people with planets and especially the sun on the descendant operate through their partnerships/relationships. They tend to really be at the mercy of the other. That may be great in a good relationship but in bad ones, well….. Now a partnership could in theory be a business one so this doesn’t by itself rule out fame in one’s own right.

But in this case we have ruler of 10th, Jupiter back in the stellium and in the 6th, added to which the moon is the ruler of the 6th suggesting that the person may be more comfortable in a subsidiary position. The moon is also trine venus in the 6th. So given that she was born in 1955 this led me to the conclusion that she would have tended to go down a more traditional female role route rather than be part of a business partnership. And due to the Mars on the descendant and Saturn square the Sun in the middle of the conjunction, I think she would make a great wife of a military leader..... but then she wouldn’t be known in her own right. And the comments about her not being a lady suggest otherwise. So that leads me to the conclusion that Deb’s comment about prostitution seems a possibility, at least on the basis of the 6th/7th stellium alone.

However what conflicts with this is all the Leo. I would expect all these planets in Leo to indicate someone who likes to be the centre of attention- a bit of a primadonna. And this doesn’t fit with the compromise needed in partnerships. So she would want people to build their whole existence round her and if we add the moderns then Pluto would add even more dark intensity to this. Throw the element of being at the other person’s beck and call that the descendant stellium brings and especially the Mars and I would say her relationships behaviour would be passive aggressive. And that this would be intensified even further by the Saturn square her sun – denying her the attention she seeks or showing it in a restrictive or cruel way. Although it is a bit of a cliché I agree with the others who have mentioned father issues.

If it wasn’t for the fact that all the Leo suggests too much self absorption for the person to do something for the community, the aquarian ascendant and the rest would tend me down the route of someone who was a leader of advocacy organization related to domestic violence. But maybe I am being too hard on the Leos…….
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3D



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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi to all,

this is an interesting chart Very Happy . A bit like black and white, with very clear themes. First the bright side Laughing (being of French-Germanic origin, I’m not very proficient in English writing, so excuse me for using bullet points).

• Grand trine MC, Moon and Venus: should make the appearance good-looking, mild, charming and feminine (has already been confirmed by Tom).
• The stellium of the Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars and Jupiter, squeezed in between Uranus and Pluto. This stellium forms many midpoint trees (180°) involving those planets. I see a lot of flirtatious sex appeal and drive (sometimes quickly aroused; Uranus!) in those trees. Mainly healthy, perhaps with the exception of Mars between Venus and Pluto which is a bit violent and has been observed with raped or abused women – but also with the perpetrators.
• Mercury and Mars at the DC, both have just set within 5 Minutes before birth. –According to Bob Makransky: “ME/DC - Judicious – You possess a down-home simplicity and objectivity (remoteness), and you are willing to take other people’s feelings and viewpoints into account. You are believable and reasonable, and hence inspire the trust of others”. And Mars/DC: “Steadfast – You are mild of manner, but iron-willed (headstrong). You are good-natured and obliging in the nonessentials, and have a knack for being forceful and unyielding without being overreaching or giving needless offence”. I have often observed that people with a ME/MA conjunction have a strong and loud voice – and they use it, too! Laughing
Using the fixed stars (a VERY ancient technique), ALKES plays a role here. It is just setting, forming a paran aspect with Mercury and Mars. Brady says that this means she is carrying something ‘precious’ for others; representing an archetype. So I think that she is something like an idol for others. People can project something into her or what she is saying.

I think her strength lies in personal relations with other people. The 2nd quadrant is very strong. She can be very communicative and convincing in personal relationships or in small groups.
Other midpoints suggest that she is successful: AC=JU/PL, MA=JU/PL.

Coming to the darker side Sad . Mainly the position of Saturn: most elevated, with midpoints MC=SA/NN, SA=MC/NE, and the square of Saturn to the stellium in Leo, with a very precise square to the Sun. Saturn is also the only planet in a prominent Gauquelin-Sector which would dominate her appearance towards others (besides Mars and Mercury at the angles).
I see problems and inhibitions with the public area here. She doesn’t like to be in the limelight. She has a great sense of duty and responsibility. Perhaps separation/alineation from her father. The feeling of having missed some duty (Sun-Saturn) and trying to make good.
The Moon is also inflicted by standing in the midpoint of Saturn/Pluto. Emotionally hard, or experiencing tragedies.

Other star parans suggest that she is very intense with the potential to be obsessed with a subject or a person (Sun-Antares). And also, that she is emotionally independent (Moon-Alpheratz). A Paran Mercury-Alphard would say that she is a holder of secrets, but in a problematic sense (secret service etc.).

Finally, to the signs/elements: Fire Fixed is dominant with a shot of air: this indicates a will-person, an initiator.

Looking forward to the revelation and more mystery charts! Very Happy
René
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3D



Joined: 19 Jun 2005
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

P.S.
I refrained from any suggestion what kind of profession she chose or any other choices that are completely up to her...............
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Tom
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Gang,

Unless I hear squeals of protest I will reveal the name of the mystery person this weekend. I will do this the way I've done it in the past, on a seperate thread so that others may wish to participate may do so without knowing who the person is. But it is hint time as the many fine astrolgoers who have participated are hitting the same themes over and over, and that's fine because there are only so many themes in a life, and if we're right, then we will hit them over and over.

Regarding her not being a lady and untraditional while still being feminine. No she is not a prostitute, but she is or was exceptionally promiscuous. This is not what she is known for, however. This came out after her fame or notoritety. Her pursuit of men was more aggressive than almost any normal man's pursuit of a woman. Some people are persistant, she was a lot more than that.

Phrases like "center of attention," which come naturally when discussing Leo, imply, but do not necessarily mean the center of attention from a group. One could seek attention from others one at a time and wish to be the center of the other's world to the exclusion of all else. I might be persuaded that if all that Leo were near the midheaven she would have sought public attention, instead she sought it with others, appropriate with Mars on the DSC.

There may have been sexual abuse as a child. I'll discuss this and the qualifier when she is revealed. The question that occurs to me when I see Saturn in a position as it is in this chart, is this: Does that Saturn profoundly affect everything or nearly everything in that stellium and how, specifically? I'll state right now, I do not have a definitive answer.

Thanks again for all the input. I have a different sort of chart planned for the next mystery, and yes, that's a tease.

Tom

PS Yes, Amelia, isn't it nice that we can look at a chart and discuss its difficuties without having to adopt some form of political correctness, which is little more than a command, "think my way or else." It is liberating rather an oppressive. And isn't it ironic that the traditional way, which has an undeserved reputation for dogmatism, is more liberating than the modern way of predetermination by particular prejudice?
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