Everyone,

I?d like some help with this chart. A friend of mine is about to deploy to Iraq tomorrow. As I was talking to him, it all hit home for both of us. He?s nervous, partly with preparations, and party with the thought of what he?s facing. In fact as we?re talking, he?s pacing around to make sure he has everything ready.

The chart is January 2, 8:45 PM, EST (+5 GMT), in Falls Church, VA. 28? Leo 59? rises.

I asked this question myself, so he?s shown by the 11th house. I don?t talk to him about astrology, and I?m not sure he?d ask me given the chances of what the chart might say. I asked hoping to give a guy I like some peace when he?s going through something that I?ve been through myself.

The first thing that I noticed was that as the 11th house ruler, the Moon is very strong in it?s own sign and own house. I?m not too concerned about the late ASC. As shown by the Moon, he?s pacing around a lot, in constant motion.

Since this is a turned chart, I?m looking to see if there?s any contact with the rulers of the radical or turned 6th and 8th houses and there isn?t any. That?s good.

The only thing I?m worried about is the opposition of the Sun to the Moon, his significator. The Sun rules the radical 12th and is in his turned 7th house, the house of the enemy. The Moon will also oppose Mercury, which rules the radical 2nd house, his turned 4th house. Though I don?t see these are very threatening, I?m not sure how to interpret them.

Mostly I thought of the full Moon as being a time of stress and confrontation but with him being so strong and so well place, I don?t see anything of consequence coming from it.

Though I have my questions about these specifics, I think I have the big answer down for this chart, and I told him not to worry, that he?s going to be OK, it will be tough for him but he?s going to come home OK.

You know a lot of times with charts, including my own, the situations that we deal with are really not as important in the end as we?d like to think. I?ve asked plenty of relationship questions and ?Will I get the job?? questions before and I know at the time it all seemed so important. I know I?ve helped people through some charts where the answer was no and it was tough.

But with this chart I?ve never felt so useful before. My friend is a brave guy but he?s scared, very scared. I told him to have faith, to trust in God and that he?ll be OK. I don?t think I?ve ever felt like I helped someone as much. I know that I?m just the messenger for the answer and even that has its own reward.

Hi Mark,

The only thing I?m worried about is the opposition of the Sun to the Moon, his significator. The Sun rules the radical 12th and is in his turned 7th house, the house of the enemy.

Do you think it possible the radical 12th can be read as the enemy's 8th? If so then the enemy's lord of death is in its 1st house (rad 5) conjunct its L6 (Mercury, Gemini interception in radical 10th). In addition to your friend's sig being strong in his house of life, his enemy's house of life is very weak by comparison - testimony that your friend will prevail? A good thought.

Peace out,
Alex

I think the main thing is that his signifactor is strong and those of his enemies are weak.

1.Secret enemies -12th colluding with open enemies 7th:
Mercury intercepted 12th lord is combust and, Venus -the 12th lord in 7th is under sun's beam.

2.Open enemies-His 7th lord saturn is down-(detriment) but recalcitrant-(retrograde-.)

3.The problem is with his counsellors or ambassdors represented by the 5th lord Mars ,they maybe more impressed by his secret enemies- venus in capricorn and not by him -Moon in fall sign of Mars. This may represent the fact that the predomiantly shia government in Iraq may be carrying out an Iranian agenda, which is definitely ani-USA.

The warfare to cope with is insurgency and guerilla warfare hence the predominace of 12th house influences.

The problem thet I have with derived houses is that the house system division changes the sign on the cusp and hence the signifactors. I have used Regiomantanus.

PD

Thanks,

The problem with turned charts is when to stop turning them, or when do you just use the radical house? Frawley gives an example of woman whose daughter is sick and he says to check the radical 6th and radical 8th and the turned houses as well.

Either way you slice it though, there is just no contact between my friend?s significator the Moon and much of anything. His open enemies are Saturn as he rules the radical and turned 7th houses. Saturn may be mean and nasty now, and angular but there?s no contact between them.

I did notice that the real contact and hence the real danger come from the radical 12th house ruler, the Sun which in turn is disposited by Saturn. I also though that showed that the open enemy uses hidden mean of attack. But in that opposition between the Moon and the Sun, the Moon is stronger. Here?s where it gets tricky. If that is the main threat, what do I tell him? The Moon reaches the Sun in 6? 51? but is moving fast, so that contact could happen in about five or six weeks, which would be the first part or middle of February. (weeks because Cancer is moveable, and the 11th house is succedent = the middle time interval). I?d like to be able to give a more specific warning other than just to be careful in the first part of February because anyone should be careful all the time over there. The Sun is in the turned 7th house, so danger could be in a direct confrontation with the enemy, but it?s also in the radical 5th house, so the danger could be hidden at sort of celebration. After that I?m pretty much stuck.

Mark, you know I am nowhere near your level, but I did have a thought. Your friend's significator is the moon, a very emotional placement, and you mention his fear. Could this just be representing a form of self undoing that may be harmful to him in battle and reduce his vitality(sun)?
Good luck to him in any event.

MD,

This kind of ties in with your question the other day about whether the description of someone in a horary is same as the description of them in a natal chart. You know I haven?t read anyone else?s opinions on this so this is just my own thoughts and common sense, but I?d day that a horary describes the person as they for in respect to the specific question. I?ve suspected that if a horary show a stranger in the chart then it may give some physical description. Lilly talks about how to recognize a thief in a chart. The main point is that a horary will show you what you need to know, and you don?t need to know what your friends look like. With that in mind, here?s what Lilly says about the Moon when she?s strong.

She signifyeth one of composed Manners, a soft, tender creature, a Lover of all honest and ingenuous Sciences, a Searcher of, and Delighter in Novelties, naturally propense to frit and shift his Habitation, unstedfast, wholly caring for the present Times, Timorous, Prodigal, and easily Frighted, however loving Peace, and to live free from the cares of this Life, if a Mechannick, the man learnes many Occupations, and frequently wil be tampering with many wayes to trade in.

I took from this the two main things that I saw about him and that was that he was afraid and that he was pacing back and forth all the time. I think you?d have to see what I saw. He was all over the place, checking all his gear, mind racing over all kinds of subjects, starting one thing and then switching to another. One of the main definitions of the Moon is this rapid movement, as Lilly says, ?naturally propense to frit and shift his Habitation.? There?s also the other association of someone who?s moving overseas for an extended period, but I saw the two main meanings as fear and pacing. But this only applies to him in this chart.

To your specific question as to whether this fear will cause him problems. I don?t think so because the Moon is strong.

I?m still more and more worried about that 12th house ruler Sun opposite him in his turned 7th house, disposited by Saturn. I can?t figure out if that is an injury or not.

I hope I don?t come across too cold in that I can talk about the astrology underneath the situation. My thoughts are all with my friend. All day I kept thinking about where he was. He?s took a bus to Norfolk where they ship out. Once on the ship communication is limited so I won?t hear from him for days or weeks.

this is probably too late, but has he done a will and power of attorney/medical directive? I work for the DC legal office. Has he left yet? If not, he should definately come in and have that done. We always try to accomodate deploying troops

I?m still more and more worried about that 12th house ruler Sun opposite him in his turned 7th house, disposited by Saturn. I can?t figure out if that is an injury or not.

This aspect needs to be dealtwith in practical terms. What possible advise can he take from you and actually implement it in the battle field.
He cannot say -"No" to going to Iraq, he cannot say no to going on patrol on a particular day , date or time.
He is professionally trained to avoid and neutralize danger and follow combat rules, he didnot particularly ask for astrological help. I think that because there is not much that can be done to prevent this chance of injury, this thing should just be left as it is.

Ask him the details when he comes back.

Best wishes for your friend

PD

Well if I can broaden the discussion some from this particular chart to astrology in general, I do believe that astrology can be used to make a real difference in what we do. If the whole point of astrology is to help us then that supposes that if we are wise enough we can avoid certain things and to make better choices.

I always work better dealing with real examples then in abstract theory so my mind is drawn back to my solar return for 2005. Unfortunately, I did not look at my solar return for 2005 until 2006. It clearly shows a disaster coming about through contact with a Martial person, and when I saw the chart this past year I instantly knew who that person was. If I had known that in 2005, it seems like it would have been quite simple to avoid that contact.

Some in the astrological community believe in fate, and would answer that by stating that most likely my attempt to avoid that fate would just end with me fulfilling it. This is how Oedipus ended up fulfilling his fate by trying to avoid it.

My solar return chart for 2006 is still active until my birthday later this year and there are some warnings in that as well. It?s still an open question whether I can learn from it.

As far as this chart goes, I'm not suggesting that I tell my friend to go AWOL on a certain day, but perhaps to be more vigilant during a set time and in circumstance that might be described in this chart.

As far as this chart goes, I'm not suggesting that I tell my friend to go AWOL on a certain day, but perhaps to be more vigilant during a set time and in circumstance that might be described in this chart.

An American serviceman in Iraq has to be vigilant at all times. How could he possibly be more vigilant at certain times? What does he need to do? This might seem rude of me, but isn?t this really mostly about yourself and your concern? After all, you?re the one who asked ? he didn?t ask for astrological advice. He just needs to go through what life offers him. He?s living his life and you?re in astrological anguish. Sometimes we just need to set this stuff aside.

Hi Steven (Mark, and all)

This is an interesting question ? whether to use the 1st or 11th house. Health and safety tend to get lumped together, and in horary, concerns for the physical safety of people who are missing, and for the health of people who are sick, are both generally first house matters, just as (you rightly point out) the concerns for those going to war are generally 1st-7th house matters.

Overall I think Lilly stresses the point that the first house is used for the subject of the query in issues relating to health /life or death, or safety, where there is no easily identifiable relationship between the person asking the question and the subject of the enquiry that we are concerned about. The questions relating to the safety of missing ships are well known examples - even though we could argue that these are 9th house matters, the focus on whether the ship is safe makes this primarily a matter about life and vitality, so we consider the ?life-potential? of the ship from the indications of ?life-potential? as shown by the ascendant and 1st house. On the other hand, Lilly does say that where the querent has a relationship to the subject of the enquiry, this relationship should be used to derive signification, and in most of his charts he seems to demonstrate this practice. (For example, p.154, and where he uses the 3rd house to judge whether a missing brother is alive or dead on p.197).

I?m not familiar with the sickness example you gave of the man asking about the health of his friend, so I?m not sure if this is a hypothetical example or a real one. But there is a further complication in that what we consider a ?sickness horary? may have been a decumbiture chart, and the rules that Lilly gives on p.243 show that the delivery of the patient?s urine or concern would have been enough to take signification of the patient from the first house. I have my doubts whether that would still be the case if the urine was secretly delivered by an enemy, or if a horary chart was drawn on the matter from someone with adverse concerns to those of the patient. This is where, I think, the issue of the querent?s relationship to the subject of the enquiry, and their place in the question, becomes vital.

That said, in principal I agree with a lot of what you have said. I think a lot of charts are asked out of a sense of identification and empathy with the concerns of someone else and in those cases the radical chart is often the most direct route to explore the symbolism. In fact even where I ?turn? charts, I never ignore the radical symbolism because in most cases I find that to be the most powerful and obvious. One area where I am becoming increasingly tempted to derive signification straight from the first house is where there is concern whether a missing pet is dead or alive, but so far I have found the 6th ruler symbolism to be too important to confidently dismiss it.

So at the moment, if there is an identifiable relationship, I?ll generally go by that, but never to the extent that the radical signification is ignored. At the same time I can respect the argument of those who prefer to draw signification straight from the ascendant as you have, and for the reasons you have. There is yet another complicating factor in ?friendship? charts as we have found in the forum on many occasions ? sometimes the notion of what constitutes a friend (as opposed to a colleague, acquaintance, loved one, etc) can be quite vague and confusing! Lilly adds the inconvenience of using both the 3rd house or 11th house for friends, depending upon whether they are from within the family circle or social realms.

Enough of that. I thought your judgement on the chart was really interesting and useful to follow - so thank you for setting it all out so clearly! Ultimately, because Mark is both the querent and astrologer here, I think it?s down to him to understand exactly what he is asking and why, and how the chart provides the answer. But one thing I think has been too readily overlooked is the late ascendant which was quickly dismissed in the first post.

Mark, you wrote:

I don?t talk to him about astrology, and I?m not sure he?d ask me given the chances of what the chart might say. I asked hoping to give a guy I like some peace when he?s going through something that I?ve been through myself.

We don?t know that your friend would welcome this, (though the intention is obviously well meant), and even if the purpose is for your peace of mind, the fact that the leaving for Iraq is a done deal that occurs in the morning (too late now) brings the need for caution before trying to get involved in the situation through this chart. The late ascendant seems to bear witness to the concerns already raised and it?s not something that I would brush aside without question. Sometimes we have to wrestle with charts, and sometimes the wrestle is to leave them be. If the astrology can?t really help now, isn?t it better to put the whole thing aside so that you can honestly wish your friend well without the prospect of imparting any anxiety you might have or develop? I think that PD has a point in suggesting that this chart could do more harm than good if the timing isn?t shown to be appropriate.

Best wishes to you and your friend,
Deb

Steven,

I'm just about to head out to do some errands but just a quick thought here.

Though what you said is sound, before I asked any question I first ask myself if I am sure of all the houses for the main significators. I felt clear that the person I was inquiring about was the 11th house. I don't like to turn houses either but that is how I saw it at the time.

The bigger question is astrology an exact science or an art? If it's not an exact science, can you do whatever you feel with a chart? Of course not. Right now my gut is telling me that since I asked the question with the technique well in mind of using the 11th house, the chart should reflect that situation. That was strongly confirmed to me by my friend showing up as the Moon. He really was going back and forth, not still for a moment, and emotionally going back and forth between fear, laughing, calm, and nervousness. In fact it was his own fear and nervousness that prompted me to do the chart.

I think what you say may apply for other charts that I do in the future though. I think I've also seen where Lilly will assign a ship and its crew to the first house when someone else is asking about their safety.