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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Influence of antiscia
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:01 pm    Post subject: Influence of antiscia Reply with quote

Hi all,
I'm looking at an horary for a friend who asked me if I thought he would procure gainful employment overseas in the next 6 months. He's a qualified accountant. The chart data is:

Dec 17th 2006; 13.40 GMT, Birkenhead, England. 53N24, 03W02'.
AS: 12 Taurus 32'; Moon:19 Scorpio 49.

When I first looked at this chart I drew the conclusion that he wouldn't find employment of a gainful nature overseas. Saturn - ruler of the 9th and 10th - is retrograde and in detriment in Leo in the 5th house, an indication that employment opportunities would be scarce and unsatisfactory. Added to this the fallen Moon in the 7th is about to square Saturn, which suggests an opportunity approaching but that his current state of dissatisfaction might only be worsened by it.
So I sat there, frustrated that I couldn't give my friend any glimmer of hope. I like to believe that no matter how hopeless a situation looks, one should at least try to find some good in even the most "negative" of horaries.
I did notice that Saturn receives his significator, Venus, into his dignity, which at least suggests that he might be welcomed by any prospective overseas employer, but the reception isn't mutual or even mixed. At least the receiving condition ameliorates Saturn's baleful influence to some degree but that doesn't offer much.
Then I noticed two things: first, the Part of Sudden Advancement at 24 Sag' 29' is conjunct the Sun and exactly trine Saturn, and secondly that the antiscion of Venus (his sig') is at 22 Sag' 03 and that Saturn is applying by retrograde motion to a trine of it.
What I need advice on is whether these two placements - particularly the latter - can offer my friend any hope, or are they simply insufficient to counteract the applying square of the Moon to Saturn?
Any comments would be welcome!

cheers..
Pete
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1392

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn´t draw your chart yet, and I don´t know if I will have the time, but would like to make a comment

Quote:
I like to believe that no matter how hopeless a situation looks, one should at least try to find some good in even the most "negative" of horaries.


I don´t think this is the correct frame of mind. This can be true in natal astrology but doesn´t hold in horary. Your job as an horary astrologer is to be truthful to the chart. If your friend can´t take the whole true, don´t give him an answer, pretend that you forget about it.

I have been looking at my past mistakes in horary, and a lot of them was because I was afraid to give an answer that was either bad or contrary to what I *believed* was reality. Nowadays I have this frame of mind: fist I think that whatever querent wants will NOT happen, than I say to the chart "prove me wrong" :-P

Second comment: Trines to antiscia are not valid aspects... people use "contransticia" but in reality this is not really an aspect, it is a bad chosen name, and doesn´t allow us to use sextile, squares or trines.
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yuzuru is right about how you can't use an aspect to an antiscia; only when they are conjunct a planet do they have any meaning, and then usually mostly to reinforce the main significators.

The real problem here is Saturn, peregrine, in detriment and retrograde. I can't think of any situation where that can be overcome if it's one of your significators. This makes reading a chart very easy however. If Saturn is deepy involved, then the answer is no.
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1392

Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have the asc ruler in the 9 house, both by division and whole sign. Withe the ruler of IC in the 7th house, I am pretty sure he will go overseas, he probably already decided it.

The moving will have a lot of problems... although venus is in triplicity she is cadent, and moon is in exile, squaring saturn, so pretty much impeded as there is no reception.

There will be a contact with the antiscia of mercury, so I do believe that he can after all get a job in accountant, but probably with a lesser pay than he expect.
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 566

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So I sat there, frustrated that I couldn't give my friend any glimmer of hope. I like to believe that no matter how hopeless a situation looks, one should at least try to find some good in even the most "negative" of horaries

Tell him like it is, Pete! You never spared me any punches each time you rendered a swift, definitive, resounding "NO" to every single horary I ever did in 2003 and 2004....
Wherefore you wish to plant the gentle seeds of hope in your client's worried and sad heart???
Wink
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don´t think this is the correct frame of mind. This can be true in natal astrology but doesn´t hold in horary. Your job as an horary astrologer is to be truthful to the chart. If your friend can´t take the whole true, don´t give him an answer, pretend that you forget about it.

Oof! I don't think I can just pretend to forget about it Yuzuru! Wouldn't that go against the very ideal of being "truthful"? Besides, all I'm asking is whether the applying trine of Saturn to the antiscion degree of Venus might mitigate somewhat against the obvious difficulties posed by the Moon's application by square to Saturn. It's the "whole truth" that I'm actually searching for.
Quote:
Second comment: Trines to antiscia are not valid aspects...use "contransticia" but in reality this is not really an aspect, it is a bad chosen name, and doesn´t allow us to use sextile, squares or trines.

Firmicus in his "Mathesis, Book II" says this about antiscia:

For when they send an antiscion in such a way that they are in aspect through the antiscion, in trine, square, sextile, or opposition, they portend just as if they were thus located in the normal arrangement.


So at least one classical author asserts that antiscia can receive an aspect other than conjunction (which isn't actually an aspect in the true sense of the word).
Hence my question about it.

cheers,
Pete
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Yuzuru is right about how you can't use an aspect to an antiscia; only when they are conjunct a planet do they have any meaning, and then usually mostly to reinforce the main significators.

Hi Mark,
I can only refer you to my response to Yuzuru, where I quoted from Firmicus. This quote came from Deb's article on the antiscia here:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/antiscia.html
I too always believed that contact to an antiscion degree could only come from the conjunction or opposition but this quote from Firmicus seems to contradict this idea.

Quote:
The real problem here is Saturn, peregrine, in detriment and retrograde. I can't think of any situation where that can be overcome if it's one of your significators. This makes reading a chart very easy however. If Saturn is deepy involved, then the answer is no.

I agree that the awful cosmic state of Saturn precludes any real possibility of gainful, satisfactory employment, but the Moon applies to Saturn, so that implies an "opportunity". Whether my friend has the will or inclination to make the most of it however, given that the Moon is in fall and also seriously weakened, is another matter.
Saturn does receive Venus into its dignity however, so no matter how "difficult" this Saturn is, it is duty bound to "welcome" Venus and be hospitable. The reception mitigates some of Saturn's malice - at least towards Venus. That's why I wondered if Saturn's applying trine to Venus' antiscion degree might offer some hope, especially since Venus will also conjoin the MC in 8 degrees.
While I realise that sometimes we astrologers can be guilty of trying too hard to read the minutia in a horary, I think there are times when we can get an answer wrong because we missed something like this.

cheers,
Pete
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Tell him like it is, Pete! You never spared me any punches each time you rendered a swift, definitive, resounding "NO" to every single horary I ever did in 2003 and 2004....
Wherefore you wish to plant the gentle seeds of hope in your client's worried and sad heart???
Wink

Hi T Smile
while I was always ruthless in rendering a "swift, definitive, resounding NO" to all those horaries you posed, I did so because I knew for sure that the horary was indeed saying "NO", and could offer you no "gentle seeds of hope". The judgement was always correct, was it not? And are you not a better person for it? That's the beauty of horary, I guess! Wink Had I offered you the gentle seeds of hope where I could find none - and I DID look - I may have sent you crashing down a very dark path and you wouldn't be where you are today.
Right? Smile

cheers, T!

Pete
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1215
Location: Delhi

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 2:51 am    Post subject: Firmicus Reply with quote

Reading that article gives me an impression that firmicus tends to regard antiscia only as contact points and the effects relate to the planet that is aspecting.

So the aspect of a retrograde, saturn in detriment to the antiscia of venus would not be a good thing.Firmicus even tends to ignore the quality of aspect to the antiscia- even trines are bad if the planet is a malefic.

I haven't read much of traditional astrology, but this interpretation was from what was quoted in that text.
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Firmicus Reply with quote

Quote:
the aspect of a retrograde, saturn in detriment to the antiscia of venus would not be a good thing.Firmicus even tends to ignore the quality of aspect to the antiscia- even trines are bad if the planet is a malefic.
I haven't read much of traditional astrology, but this interpretation was from what was quoted in that text.

Thanks Pankajdubay. I see from the example chart quoted that Firmicus did indeed consider an aspect thrown from a badly placed malefic to an antiscion point to be damaging, so I'll keep that in mind when I offer my judgement.

I just wish that people wouldn't keep asking me career-related horaries where this detrimented, retrograde Saturn rules the MC!

cheers,

Pete
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1215
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Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

or a relationship horary, when it rules the 7th Smile
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1392

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Steven
Can the moon give her disposition even without reception ?
Yuzuru
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Fri Dec 29, 2006 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steven,

A very good analysis there. You must be using a different set of Term rulers than Ptolemy's that I use in SolarFire. I get the MC of 16° Capricorn 37’ as being in the Terms of Jupiter. What system do you use?

So if your positive outcome hinges on the Moon’s being conjunct with Jupiter, what does that say about the nature of what’s he’s going to get? Jupiter is the natural significator of wealth and rules the 8th and 12th houses here. It also is the natural significator of travel, but it’s positioned in the 7th house, as is the Moon. Though there is some connection to work overseas here, it could just as easily mean that instead of the desired job abroad, that the querent finds lucrative work where he is from business relationships. That would be based on Jupiter being money from clients as the ruler of the 8th positioned in the 7th.

I also wouldn’t write off Saturn’s obstructive role here as just indicating a simple delay of things happening. That could easily signify some major unpleasant obstacle or setbacks.
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steven,

I have two thoughts here. What do you think of the idea that since it is the Sun that welcomes Saturn into his house, that this signifies that Saturn is free to do whatever he wants, and that is always negative when he's so debilitated? A few months ago there was a lengthy discussion here about receptions involving malefics, and Deb and Ben Dykes contributed quite a bit on this, especially Ben whose source is Bonatti’s Liber Astronomiae which Ben has translated. Ben cited several examples from Bonatti where he says that it’s worse when a planet receives a malefic like Saturn and somewhat better if the malefic receives the other planet. Ben made the analogy of a scene from a movie where Saladin invited two prisoners into his tent and offered one of them to have a drink, while not offering a drink to the other. But both took a drink. The one who was invited to drink was given wine, while the one who was not invited (received) drank poison. Bonatti’s examples involved questions of illness where the ASC lord is received by the lord of the 8th and the patient lives, while when the ASC lord receives the lord of the 8th the patient dies. In this current chart, the Sun receives Saturn into his house, so that looks to me as if the Sun is damaged by this, or at least nothing positive comes of it. Since Saturn has been in bad shape for the last few years, I’ve seen this situation come up in a lot of charts and the outcome has been that nothing positive comes out of it, even if the querent’s significator is in the house of the quesited, or if Saturn is in the sign or in the house of the querent. I’ve read countless times what Lilly says about aspects involving malefics, debilitated or otherwise, and he makes the same distinction, adding that you also have to pay attention to the condition of the planet that is involved with the malefic. In Peter’s chart we have the Sun in fair shape with dignity by triplicity but not being received by Saturn, the opposite of what both Bonatti and Lilly say is the preferable way. I’ve always noticed too that Lilly does not ever say that if your chart meets his conditions that you’ll get perfection, just that if you don’t meet them you won’t. That’s a big difference. If I had to bet, I’d bet with the negative strength of Saturn in detriment, peregrine and retrograde.

Also I tend to look at whether two planets are naturally friends or not and between the Sun and Saturn we have a one-sided friendship where Saturn is friends with the Sun while the Sun is not friends with Saturn.

The other point is something that Deb has made on several occasions relative to which house system a person uses, or in this case what system of terms a person uses. She’s said that the answers will come to us using the tools that we use, so in some sense, within reason of course, these differences of house systems or which Terms we use are not very important. I might not be expressing her ideas as clearly as she would but my point is that since this is Peter’s chart and since he’s using Ptolemy’s terms, that kind of makes a difference on how strong the sway that Venus has over the mid-heaven. With just dignity by term it does not match the standard of reception which is as you said, dignity by sign or exaltation, or triplicity and one of the two minor dignities. I really am just bringing this point up to discuss; I’m not sure about this either way.
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1392

Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steven, everytime you "babble" I have to study your babbling for months...
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