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Can the moon as co-significator "intervene"?

 
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Moondance7



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 115

Posted: Sun Dec 03, 2006 12:32 am    Post subject: Can the moon as co-significator "intervene"? Reply with quote

This issue is really confusing me, so I have come to traditionalists for an answer. The question was "Will I find love and happiness in 2007?" Lord 1 is Saturn, Lord 5 is quesited, Love and Happiness. Does the moon as co-significator intervene between Venus perfecting a trine to Saturn? And does it make any difference that the trine will perfect in real time when Saturn is starting to go retrograde (although no actual movement takes place?) The reason I am asking is because another more skillful horary reader, said the moon interferes with the applying trine from venus and said no relationship eventuates.Thanks. Here's the chart:

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kerenhappuch



Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 396
Location: UK

Posted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Moondance,

I have a real problem with this question. Have you noticed it's yes/no? What if the answer is "NO", you will not find "love and happiness" in 2007? How would the querent feel? And even if it is "YES", how does this answer help anyone? I think there's probably a question within this question, whether it's about an old relationship, new relationship, friendships, family, whatever. You mention "relationship" in your post. If you're asking about finding a romantic relationship, we need to find contact between Lord 1 and Lord 7.

Whatever question you're really asking, I think it would be more productive to ask that question.

Keren
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Moondance7



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 115

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The question was asked clearly- I guess I was just reading it wrong. I was looking for contact between L1 and L5- because I was thinking romance and happiness. Then someone else read it and said "happiness without romance" because the trine from venus was intervened by the moon. That didn't make sense because this forum says the moon is the co-sigificator of the querent and I could not for the life of me see contact with a co-significator causing a negative answer.

2006 was a traumatic year romantically for me-actually the most traumatic I ever experienced in that department. I really got chewed up and spit out,so to speak. So, I decided to ask this question specifically about 2007 to see if this year would be better for me and then got all muddled trying to interpret it. Would you be kind enough to look at it again with this background and guide me through a sensible determination? Could you also look at the "real-time" consequences of Saturn (my significator) beginning retrograde motion and how that affects the trine with venus? Thanks, K. I appreciate it. Smile
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a little concerned also about the question being too vague. Iíve had these little moments when you just wonder something in desperation so I know how it is.

But to stick to horary, you have to first identify the significators, and the Moon would most likely be given over the mystery person who youíre looking over. This is because the Moon rules the 7th house, and any new relationship would be seen with the 7th house. Youíre Saturn in detriment in the 8th, the house of anxiety and depression. The Moon is only 1 Ĺį away from a trine with Saturn. The problem here is that Saturn is a malefic in detriment and nothing good can come out of that. Read what Lilly says about Saturn.

One question for you is do you think that the Moon mean that youíll meet someone new, but it wonít amount to much? Itís your chart, I can only help so much.

I am very interested in who Mars is. Mars just separated from Saturn. They are still in a partile square. When Mars (and Saturn for that matter) makes a partile square with a planet that is considered to be a great affliction. Being so close this looks to me like youíre still involved or at least thinking about someone else. Being so close means thatís itís not over yet. Lilly talks about aspects that have separated but are still close. He said that itís like people who have broken off their engagement but are still wrangling about it.

I wouldnít be too concerned about Venus. Mars looks like heís about to approach and make contact with Jupiter but he gets beaten to it by Mercury. Iím not sure if that pertains really to your situation but we are all seeing this turn about, come from behind win in all of our charts.
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Moondance7



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 115

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark, thanks for your message, but I am in a terrible fog over these responses, and feeling quite discouraged about the chart for now. I thought with the trines, there would be something positive, but it doesn't seem like it from you and K.' readings.

I'm amazed that a sigificator is read as a malific. I thought that the debilitated state of Saturn just mean that I was "weak" and not in a position to do anything active in regards to initiating a new relationship,and would just have to wait. Or, that it's imminent retro motion might mean that I might change my mind about a new relationship. But it appears from your answer that it's just a dead-end significator, allowing nothing positive.

I have been working hard all 2006 to rid myself of an old attachment, but it has been an emotional attachment only, no relationship or contact- maybe that's Mars, but believe me, there is no real relationship issue there at all. Apparently, the venus trine and the moon trine portend nothing good at all, and I have never heard of this before. I cannot read Lilly's English, so is there anyone else who has written on this subject? Thanks
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kerenhappuch



Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 396
Location: UK

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Mark was just drawing attention to the miserable state of Saturn. This just shows you are in a weak state at the moment, especially being in the 8th of "fear and anguish of mind". I think this imagery fits perfectly, from your description of your situation. I think we can explore this imagery as showing your unhappy state at the moment, and the imminent retrogradation as compounding this. Basically, you still have a way to go before you're completely free of these old problems, as shown by the retrogradation back into detriment, as opposed to forward motion into Virgo.

The Moon does apply to trine Saturn, but the Moon is in Aries, the sign of Saturn's fall. So, the Moon is not a fan of Saturn and so will not bring anything good or helpful. We can interpret this as you coming into contact with a person with the capacity to hurt you, and easily, as shown by the trine. Whoever this person may be, stay away!

So, the advice would be, stay strong, stick to your guns, focus on yourself, building up your own inner strength. Boring and lonely I know but there are phases in life that are just rubbish and we have to endure them.
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piglet



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 20

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See, from where I stand I would say you have a positive, 'yes' kind of response, but my first instinct is to say, Yes, you will find it, but not in the guise you'd expect. I can't see the applying trine between Venus, the Moon, and Saturn as anything but good; you are Saturn and are obviously feeling in a very bad way, being in detriment and in the House 8 of sorrows. The Moon, who rules the 7th, applies to you from the 3rd house, and the ruler of the 5th of love and pleasure, applies from the 12th of secrets. Perhaps you will find some kind of love and support from (a neighbour? someone in your neighbourhood?) but because Venus is hiding in the 12th, it may not be so apparent to you that this person is there!

I'm only a beginner and so don't understand everything, but this was the first thing that popped out at me when I looked at your chart. Very Happy
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piglet



Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 20

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, but I just missed kerenhappuch's reply ... Confused
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AlexMc



Joined: 01 Sep 2006
Posts: 55
Location: USA

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Moondance7,

you wrote
Quote:
The reason I am asking is because another more skillful horary reader, said the moon interferes with the applying trine from venus and said no relationship eventuates.


It is my understanding that the Moon is translating the light of Venus to Saturn, not interfering. Debís article The Moon as Transmitter of Influences is excellent, covers translation and is an easier read than Lilly! - http://www.skyscript.co.uk/moon2.html

Some people use the almuten as significator. If so, then sig for you is Mars 26Scorpio in 11th applying conjunction to Jupiter (almuten 7th house) in Sagittarius in 11th (across sign barrier = obstacle).

If this almuten approach has merit (for this chart) then in five Ďsomethingí time units you will meet someone Ė I will try to get back to this later when I have more time. Firstly, does the Mars Scorpio in 11th describe you or is the Saturn Leo a better description? Profiling is not one of my strengths so maybe a more learned forum member can assist you with a description of the Mars vs the Saturn

Regards,
Alex
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 523
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moondance7,

Sorry if it seemed like I was called you malefic. That's not what I meant. The problem with reading what Lilly says about any planet is to know what to apply in given situation. For here, I think that the bottom line is just like you said, that you're very weak in the situation. At the minimum I'd say that Saturn show the loneliness that you've already spoken about. I wouldn't fret as to whether all those other nasty things that Lilly says Saturn pertain to you here. The key thing is solitariness, sadness, etc.

I know reading Lilly's 17th century English is hard but it does pay off. Even if he speaks differently from us, his use of words is very precise and powerful. But I sympathize too; I've often wished for Lilly to be translated into English as well.

Lilly gives several rules for dealing with a debilitated malefic like Saturn, and basically it's almost impossible but the one thing that you would have to have is Saturn welcoming some other planet into his own sign or exaltation. So we'd have to have a planet in aspect with Saturn in Leo that itself is in either Capricorn, Sagittarius or Libra. The other hard part to get is that other planet could not be weak there. So that would limit it to say Jupiter in Sagittarius or Venus in Libra being in aspect with Saturn. This is on page 184 of book II. I've read it many times and the odd thing too is that Lilly does not actually say that you can get a positive outcome from a debilitated malefic; he just says that unless you have the above conditions "it prenotes the destruction of the thing quesited." Iíve wondered if Lilly means it exactly the way that I think he does, that even when you meet the above conditions, it just means that the answer is not a clear no, which is a lot different from a yes.

It sounds really hard for you and believe me I've been there before. When you do a chart when you're really down in the dumps often what you get back is less a prediction than a description. You're down and you get a chart that says that you're down. Don't think of is as being like some sort of curse that you're doomed. You do have some things that you can do for yourself and one thing is to make that relationship with Mars better somehow. Though it's not exactly partile because it's just a tad over 1į apart, itís still close enough to be damaging to you. Iím not saying that you stop all contact with this person unless thatís what you want. But maybe there is some way to take whatís good while still protecting yourself. A lot of time the answers are not given in a chart, they are only hinted at by the way the chart describes the problem. So if Mars is hurting you as it seems to be hear, there is no one answer that the chart says.

Itís a moot point whether the Moon prohibits Saturn and Venus from coming together. For one thing, the Moon is translating light from Venus to Saturn so that links them together. The other main point is that Saturn being in such rough shape cannot either give or receive much. I did a chart back in June where I was Saturn in detriment. The question was about whether someone I had met as a friend through work would turn out to be a real friend or just someone I know. I had an applying contact but still nothing came about as weíd expect from Saturn in detriment. I did another chart a few weeks ago where I asked a friend to give me the name of someone I wanted to contact. My friend was Saturn in Leo in the first and we had an applying aspect from the Moon, translating I think. My friend tried (heís in the ASC, heís on my side) to contact this person several times but apparently the phone number is wrong, so nothing came of what I wanted.

Back to your question, when you have an applying aspect with Saturn in Leo, there may be good intentions, and there may be some contact even but not what you want. It doesnít help that Venus is peregrine and in the 12th house either.

I am not sure if this helps but when we get a bad chart that is accurate, it may be hard to live through, but when we get a good chart we can be more sure that that good thing will happen. In other words, if astrology works then we have to accept the bad with the good.
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Moondance7



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 115

Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks,everyone for your thoughtful replies. They pack a lot of information I wasn't aware of, and give much food for thought.

Actually Mark, I asked this horary because I have been feeling much more optimistic and less Saturnian lately, but it appears that is not yet reflected in the chart because Saturn in Leo is still transiting my natal 12th house.

I do long for the day, however when I can ask a personal question and have it answered by the universe in an unambiguously happy fashion! Thanks again, all.
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