skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Does horary need to be spiritual?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Horary & Electional Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:42 am    Post subject: Does horary need to be spiritual? Reply with quote

A while back Moondance7 made the following comment in one of the horary threads and I suggested that this matter should be raised as a topic in its own right.

Quote:
I am new to this board but have noted a definite "spiritual" leaning. For instance, there have been many comments about "base" questions, as if there is a list of concerns considered spiritually OK, and others that aren't.
My opinion is that all concerns of humanity are legitimate fodder for exploration if one is so inclined. That is a choice made by the individual, and no astrologer need feel obligated to respond if they find the subject distasteful.

I feel that astrology is a physical phenomenon that we presently have little understanding of, and there is room in the astrological community for all points of view, or should be.


So the question is – ‘is asking a horary question an intrinsically spiritual act or does horary operate just as well regardless of the sense of moral obligation?’

Let me state my personal vew. I’m not sure that the issue of spirituality is quite as pertinent in other branches of astrology as it is in horary. But I do conceive of horary as fundamentally spiritual in purpose – the use of it being to gain understanding of a larger will than our own, which we benefit ourselves by aligning with. If we try to force that larger will to do our bidding, we will run into problems. That viewpoint seems to be expressed by every great astrologer of the past who taught the methods that we rely upon. There was always a sense of a horary question being something like a prayer - not to be rushed into without an earnest attempt to elevate the personal mind so that it can unite with the higher mind. Under such circumstances it relates to the principle “ask, and you shall be given” – which is not to suggest that anyone can endlessly ask for anything wanted, and always expect to receive. The sincerity of the request is pivotal, and with the development of sincerity, the less inclined we become to continually ask for ourselves. (By sincerity I mean being conscious of what is being asked, why it is being asked, and that it is a legitimate concern that doesn’t impinge on the rights of others.)

A fuller exploration of my views are given in the articles: Questioning our Horaries and Providence & the Power of the 'Self' in Horary . I am aware that some people will see these views as controversial, so this is the opportunity to respond.

One phrase that is often quoted comes from Lilly “"The more holy thou art, and more neer to God, the purer judgement thou shalt give".

Garry Phillipson has raised this quote with a number of well known astrologers in his interviews, asking for their opinions on whether this is a reliable principle and receiving varying responses. So let’s use that quote as the prompt for discussion in this thread. I know that Garry would also be interested to hear from other astrologers on this point, and if there are any interesting comments presented here he has said that he may be able to use them in his forthcoming thesis.

Anyone care to comment?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
SusieN



Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 220
Location: Cape Town, South Africa

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Deb

Interesting question, which in my very humble opinion is answered easily when put into a larger context, which is that "life ought to be spiritual". What I mean by that, is that when ethics, and a level of consciousness that goes beyond mere survival and self-interest, are the cornerstone of ones existence, then the tool that is used to gain answers with, in this case horary astrology, will be automatically elevated to that level too.

But still, if we lose our keys and try to find them through a horary chart, that is as valid a question as any other....

I don't know if I am making myself clear enough... I guess what I am saying is that the intention behind the question carries all the weight in this matter.

Clear as mud? Smile

Best,
Susie
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Claiming the right to know is one approach; asking to be shown is another. The first is a forceful and willful taking; the second is a more passive hopeful receiving.

The spiritual aspect of horary, and of all astrology, is in the humility of stepping aside in acknowledgement of something greater than oneself. In that act of acquiescence the small voice gives way to the greater voice, and “the purer judgement thou shalt give".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 464

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello,

My 2-cents...

Quote:
Is asking a horary question an intrinsically spiritual act or does horary operate just as well regardless of the sense of moral obligation?


We have the big three to consider here. The body of knowledge itself, the techniques and the application.

In epistemology, the science of how we know what we think we know, we have revealed knowledge (totally spiritual), inspired knowledge (probably partially spiritual), experiental knowledge (learning from others directly, learning from others and oneself indirectly, ...). Some of the knowledge of astrology is definitely inspired if not revealed. So, the body of knowledge itself is spiritual (at least partially).

I think the techniques in astrology are a mixture of mechanical and spiritual acts. We need our techniques to ball park an event (past and future) both in nature and timing but techniques no matter how good can only predict generalities. The particulars can only come with inspired/revealed knowledge (see the first aphorism of Ptolemy's centiloquy). A good mechanical astrologer would predict that so and so would have a Martial profession and be succesful in it and also predict the timing but an inspired astrologer could pinpoint the particular Martial profession...the more holier thou art...the purer judgement thou shalt give...So, practicing of astrology is partially spiritual. Some astrologers believe that you don't have to be intuitive in order to be a good astrologer (which I agree - but you do need to do a LOT!). If you keep studying and keep on improving yourself sincerely, you could somehow make particular predictions (esp. in horary) because all those experience had been strored in your unconscious mind, and it is the unconscious mind that speaks particulars and sounds like intuitive...this is very much like expressway driving where the conscious mind is totally oblivious of the driving and the unconscious mind takes over. To be able to predict particulars do require a degree of spirituality...

The application of astrology can be spiritual or totally physical/mechanical. To find that lost ring is totally mechanical. Let us admit it that when we use astrology (or anything for that matter whether spiritual or not), to cater for our lower desires is very physical. The body of knowledge might be spiritual, the techniques also probably spiritual but the purpose (when it's directed at fulfilling our lower desires) can be totally mechanical. Can astrology be used to cater to our higher needs/purpose? Of course it can (in its own limited way). This is like magick - there's lower magick (incantations, essential oils, elementals, etc. used to fulfill our everyday mundane desires) and high magick (those spiritual exercises to transcend our soul into higher understanding, to achieve awakening, enlightenment, ...).

What about the act of asking question itself? Is it spiritual? I guess if it is directed towards greater understanding of oneself and the surroundings, it can be as spiritual as the journey of a hero who seeks the oracle to prepare himself for the heroic task that awaits him.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Moondance7



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 115

Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Despite the fact I will probably stand alone in my opinion (which frankly has never bothered me), I see no spiritual aspect required in astrology. I personally do not think there is such a thing as a Higher Mind, or any other euphemism for "God".

As a matter of personal choice, there are always basic moral/ethical standards to be observed, but in my case they are not derived from any religious source, but from what seems productive and sensible from the perspective of the human race. I consider myself a very moral person and am constantly dismayed and disgusted by the attitudes of people who think they have a lock on what is right or wrong from a religio/spiritual perspective. They frequently are apalling people.

Faith is by definition an irrational act. There never has been, nor IMO, ever will be, an intellectual proof of the existence of God, although many spend years of their lives ernestly "proving" that their concept of God is correct and intellectually based.

At many times in history, God has been "proven" to exist by intellectuals firmly under the sway of cultural/religious convictions which to them appear unquestionable, and I think is the case with traditional astrologers. After all, if Lilly et al lived in the era of the divine right of kings, why do we look to him for rationality on this point?

I find this to be a very learned site, full of information that is slowly but surely helping me understand horary, so I just gloss over the spiritual content as I would someone positing the spontaneous generation of maggots in meat(which medievalists also used to believe,BTW). To me, astrology is a physical phenomenon, poorly understood, and probably to be understood better in future by the growth of quantum physics as a science.

Within the study of astrology itself, things such as the moon's nodes and past lives are very interesting to me, because although I know they are not describing a past life, they are describing something, and often ring true about the person's personality.I would imagine that anyone with a truly "spiritual" outlook would be humble enough to recognize the rights of others to believe as and what they please. I do not seek to convert others on this site, and likewise refuse to be cowed by the majority opinion, no matter what the number of wisely nodding heads. Thank you for this interesting thread. Lala Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Despite the fact I will probably stand alone in my opinion (which frankly has never bothered me)


Just as well if you’re studying astrology Smile

Quote:
As a matter of personal choice, there are always basic moral/ethical standards to be observed, but in my case they are not derived from any religious source, but from what seems productive and sensible from the perspective of the human race.


I’m sure a lot of astrologers can relate to that.

Quote:
Faith is by definition an irrational act. There never has been, nor IMO, ever will be, an intellectual proof of the existence of God, although many spend years of their lives ernestly "proving" that their concept of God is correct and intellectually based.


I’m not comfortable making references to particular religions or God either, but I’ll assume that you also relate this to the concept of higher mind and the spiritual aspect generally, because earlier you stated that you saw no spiritual requirement in astrology and discount the possibility of a Higher Mind. I just wonder how you square the recognition of faith as being irrational, with the fact that a belief in astrology is no less rational. I mean, why is it rational that the planet Venus ‘rules’ two segments of the ecliptic (or that any of the planets should have any ‘essential dignities’ along the ecliptic?’) I think that belief in astrology (as it is used in horary) by itself entails an act of faith, because intelligence alone would never allow it.

Quote:
To me, astrology is a physical phenomenon, poorly understood, and probably to be understood better in future by the growth of quantum physics as a science.


I also accept that astrology has a natural basis and that what you have written here is likely in some of its branches. Yet there are numerous symbolic concepts extended from that (used in judicial branches such as horary) which will never be justified by increasing scientific knowledge (IMO). For example, I doubt that quantum physics will ever reveal an intelligent rationale for why Capricorn should symbolise knees and Pisces feet. And how is quantum physics going to cope with the fact that if Capricorn does symbolise feet according to natural, physical principles, different astrologers use different methods to determine the boundaries of Capricorn anyway?

It is hard to explore the techniques of horary without coming across a heavy emphasis of symbolic reasoning, so if I accept that a symbol has a power of expression, then I have to assume some source for that power. Let’s say I argue that a symbol has power because it has been subject to a lengthy and focussed attention of human mind; that would still suggest a spiritual source to me, because it would show that the collective has a source of power into which an individual can tap. That would show a collective will, and wouldn’t that suggest the presence of a universal will or ‘higher mind’?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
voyagergirl



Joined: 19 Jun 2005
Posts: 333
Location: Michigan, USA

Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:23 pm    Post subject: Spiritual aspect of horary Reply with quote

My reason for using horary is that it is a very practical tool for learning about one's life. And because of that, many horary questions tend to be about very mundane topics, such as "where did I leave my keys?," "will I get the job," "will he ask me to marry him?"

While I agree that horary astrology should not be used for an unethical purpose, my interpretation of that is that one should not use horary astrology to plot some evil doing. As Barbara Watters once said, "There is no good time to rob a bank."

However, unlike Moondance, I do believe in God, and faith by definition, can't be rationally understood. However, I understand that even Einstein stated that there must be a higher power, because the universe couldn't have been created through a random act alone -- or words to that effect.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Moondance7



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 115

Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting response and questions, Deb. I guess I feel that astrology was based on observation initially by people who essentially lived in another world than modern people.Their powers of observation of the natural world, I feel, would surpass ours.

A lot of nonsense has crept in over the ages, but observation formed the original basis. For instance, Taurus is the sign astrologers associate with banking, yet in actual fact, Aquarius is much more often the sign of bankers/banks. Perhaps in the earlier more natural world, "wealth" was based on husbandry, then agriculture.

In regards to symbolic language, I agree this describes much of astrology, but feel this has more to do with the structure and inclination of the human brain rather than higher mind. The human brain may see beginnings and endings everywhere, but only because the human being has a demonstrable beginning and ending. Maybe beginnings and endings are not a "real" concept at all. All we can do is the best with the tools we have.

Even in "ordinary" languages we must often stretch to comprehend the world view of the speaker. For instance, the native English speaker can scarcely imagine a language without words for "yes" and "no", yet Irish has none. In the world that generated this language, people perceived the universe as in a state of continual spontaneous creation, and every thing might be affirmed or denied, but the concept of affirmation or negation could not float freely without being anchored in a thing. In other words,"Is it raining?" "It is(raining)", not "Is it raining?" "yes".

I have no idea what a "trine" really means, but as I said, I know it means something. I must assess on other people's observations and my own, what it means. I see humans as perceiving reality first through their organic framework, then through experiential/cultural frameworks. If you saw the video"What the Bleep?" about quantum physics and the nature of reality, it was said that the Arawak Indians at first could not see Christopher Columbus's ships because ships as a concept did not exist in their world. Only when a shaman, supposedly used to viewing the unseen, saw the ships, did others see them.

I feel we have no way of positing a higher mind because we do not understand mind. It may very well exist, as God may exist, but it cannot be reliably inferred, at least to my satisfaction, from known facts or observation. Remember, if we understood everything about any object, say, a safety pin, we would know all about the universe. Mostly, we just know that a safety pin can prick our fingers and is useful for holding some things together.

I like the Dalai Lama's statement to the effect that if Tibetan Bhuddism and quantum physics ever disagree, then Tibetan Bhuddism will change. I think you can say that about astrology and quantum physics, too. I do not see astrology as irrational, but rather mostly incomprehensible in a full sense of the word, and only dealing in probabilities, given the nature of the universe as we glimpse it. I find too many reasons for human nature to create God/higher mind as a needed coping mechanism to trust them as concepts of reality. The pin, at least, can prick my finger.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sue



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 945
Location: Australia

Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not particularly keen on the word spiritual in this context but I too use it for want of a better word. It gets confused with the word religious to the point where they are often used interchangeably. For this reason, the word spiritual can be used pejoratively and can lead to a diminished meaning rather than a deepened and enriched sense of what horary is. You do not have to believe in God to have a sense of spirituality.

However, while I do see horary as having a spiritual element, I see spirituality in a slightly different way. To me, it means that all divination arises from a deep understanding of the laws of correspondences. That is the belief that the heavens and the earth, both above and below, are linked so that the flow of energy between the two is reflected in each other. A couple of years ago, Garry instigated an interesting thread on the Emerald Tablet.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=517&highlight=emerald+tablet

The maxim of this tablet, most likely dated to the 12th century is the phrase, ‘That which is above is like that which is below and that which is below is like that which is above.’ This two way relationship has been recognised as far back as the Babylonians. So, when we talk about giving over to a will greater than our own, I understand what is being said but I prefer to see it as understanding the principles that make me part of this two way communication and therefore able to make sense of the messages it brings. I am not separate from the higher will and asking it to give me messages but rather part of it and able to understand it because of the understanding that the microcosm is reflected in the macrocosm and vice versa. Without this two-way communication there can be no horary. And I believe that this two-way communication is essential whether we are asking a question about the meaning of life or asking where we've left our keys. In that sense, I do not believe that any horary question can ever be purely mechanical.

In Cicero’s De Divinatione he puts into his brother’s mouth an argument that Cicero then identifies as being one of Stoic origin. 'My own opinion is that, if the kinds of divination we have inherited from our forefathers and now practise are trustworthy, then there are gods and, conversely, if there are gods then there are men who have the power of divination.’ Later, Quintus (Cicero’s brother) says that between the Divine Soul and the human soul, both of which are divine and eternal, there is a sympathy and a connection which permit of communication from one to another. The Babylonians saw the liver used in hepatoscopy as the mirror of heaven. It was often believed that as the sacrificial animal was killed the will of the heavens would be imprinted onto the liver so that the correspondences could be read by the haruspex. This is similar to how I see divination, be it drawing up a horary chart or using hepatoscopy (although I don’t do a lot of that these days).

So in that sense, 'spirituality' is equally important in all forms of astrology. However, I do see that there is perhaps more need for an awareness of this in something like horary. And I believe that you can have a strong sense of moral obligation without spirituality but I do not believe you could have spirituality without a strong moral obligation.

So, in a sense, Lilly’s quote ‘The more holy thou art, and more neer to God, the purer judgement thou shalt give’ is saying a similar thing. While it might appear to be purely religious in its content, I believe that what Lilly is attempting to convey is that the heavens and earth are connected in a way that we must understand and appreciate to truly practise good horary.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Moondance7



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 115

Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sue, I understand and agree with most of what you are saying, but still balk at ascribing a rarified "higher" status to the rest of the universe, or the "heavens". If you're a part of it, why is it "higher" than you? Your construct, by the way, is almost completely quantum physics,IMO. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Sue



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 945
Location: Australia

Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Sue, I understand and agree with most of what you are saying, but still balk at ascribing a rarified "higher" status to the rest of the universe, or the "heavens".

This is why I did not talk of a 'higher' status for the heavens. It is the point of what I have said. As above, so below, etc. This denotes equality of above and below, not power over that which is below. The classic example that often comes up in these sorts of discussions is of the River Nile and the Milky Way. The Egyptians saw the Nile as reflecting the Milky Way. They did not give more meaning to the Milky Way. On the contrary, the Nile was their lifeblood and they had great reverence for it. Most Egyptian temples were aligned in accordance with the banks of the Nile in the same way that the Pyramids are thought by many to have been intentionally aligned with certain stars. This sort of alignment can be seen in all ancient cultures including those of South America.

This isn't to say that there were not relationships between ancient people and the gods that were hierarchical in some sense. Sacrifices were part of seeking the favour of the gods. But magic was a crucial element in the lives of ancient cultures. Unlike divination, magic was a deliberate attempt to manipulate the universe. If they believed that they were subordinate to a higher power it is unlikely that they would have a belief in magic.

Quote:
If you're a part of it, why is it "higher" than you?


It isn't higher than us. It is a two way relationship of equality.

Quote:
Your construct, by the way, is almost completely quantum physics,IMO.

Where do you think they got their theories from? Have you ever read 'The Tao of Physics' by Fritjof Capra? It is a bit dated now (written in the 70s I think) but it is a very interesting read. The 'Theory of Everything' and 'String Theory' have a very strong basis in ancient cosmological and philosophical theory. However, they still lack the deeper sense of the divine. There has been quite a bit written on the similarities between ancient and modern theories of our universe.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Moondance7



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 115

Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I'm comfortable with those ideas. I think the ability of "magic" to affect the universe has already been proven in laboratory experiments. There's not a direct link, but this is close to why I tend to think asking the same question more than once is not such a boo-boo as some state. The universe DOES change, people and circumstances DO change, so you're really not asking the same question at all. Anyway, good discussion.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tara



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 454

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because horary judgments are so specific and concrete, we are creating powerful karma whenever we venture to advise people using this kind of astrology. We are not hedging our bets and laying out options as we tend to do when talking to people about their transits and progressions. We have a lot less "wiggle room."

Speaking as a long time professional astrologer of the modern persuasion and a recent enthusiastic convert to traditional/horary astrology, I feel that the karma stakes are considerably higher when I make a horary judgment because I am so much more definite in what I tell people. I've always taken the responsibility of being an astrologer very seriously. The immediacy of horary judgments makes me that much more aware of the need to be altruistic in my motivation. And to me altruism is a tacit acknowledgement of a higher good or power.

So yes, I do think that asking horary questions is an intrinsically spiritual act and that our moral obligation in giving judgments cannot be over emphasized.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
granny_skot



Joined: 20 May 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: California, USA

Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that I would phrase it a bit differently. I think a better description of what I think horary's intrinsic nature is, would be

"the more you are willing to suspend your own personal judgements, preconceptions, what have you, when engaged in asking a horary question, and the more you are willing to let the Universe respond to you, The more likely you are to not only receive highly accurate feedback from the universe, but also the more likely you are to SEE it."

A case in point a friend showed me a chart the other day, where she had asked is a particular person she is interested in Married. She eagerly showed me how he obviously isn't because The moon is way over ... in the chart... I looked at the chart and said, well and the sun sitting right between Mars and venus (the significators of she and he) is what? She was so bound up in what she wanted the chart to say, that she looked right at it several times and still didn't see the sun. Whether it is spiritual or the collective unconscious or whatever, to do horary, there must be some order to the universe. My Aethiest friend who practices astrology thinks it is just the individual connecting into the collective unconscious, not tied to deity or spirits, etc. Her readings are rather good, so I dont know that I can argue with her, other than my experience has been more ... well spiritual has odd connoctations for me so I dont want to use that word, connected perhaps? connected to the universe is the feeling it gives me, regardless of what ever it is.

Granny
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GarryP
Moderator


Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 213
Location: UK

Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder what you all think of this? John Frawley says:

Quote:
“it is an inescapable consequence of the very premises of horary [astrology] that the judgment given will be the right one, whether it be ‘correct’ or not.” “If the q[uestion] can fall only at its appropriate time, it must fall also at its appropriate place - i.e. onto the head of the appropriate astrologer in whatever state of good or bad form he is in at that moment. As Al-Ghazali says… every raindrop has its own angel appointed to guide it to its destined place (i.e. the essence of the life of that thing, whether a raindrop or a question or a human, can unfold only as it is destined to unfold).”


The first quotation is from The Astrologer's Apprentice No.17, p.45. The second is from a clarification of the passage from John, quoted with permission. Both appear in an article of mine in the latest Correlation (Vol 23(2)).

So in other words, is it part of astrology's function to provide inaccurate or downright misleading information at certain times? (I'm reminded of the misdirection in the witches' final prophecy in Macbeth.)

It seems clear that this idea could, if taken in the wrong way, have a negative impact on the practice of astrology - leading to an 'anything goes' attitude amongst astrologers. But this is a separate issue from whether it is true or not. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? In particular, any experience of horaries which were 'right' though not 'correct'?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Horary & Electional Astrology All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated