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"Will she marry?" Who does the moon represent?
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 599

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:28 pm    Post subject: "Will she marry?" Who does the moon represent? Reply with quote

This is a question that I asked about someone who I know as an acquaintance only, she is not my friend, not do I have any other specific relationship with her.

“Will she marry?”
Why would I ask a question about her when I don’t really know her? Because I know the person that she is engaged to.

Question asked 11:35 am, 74W26 40N51, 15:35 Univ. time

I get 14 degrees 10 minutes Virgo ascendant.

Since she is simply an acquaintance, I placed her as the 7th, so she is Jupiter 9 deg 16 minutes in Scorpio, retrograde in the 3rd.
The ruler of her 7th is Mercury, which is placed in 25 deg 55 minutes in Leo in the radical 11th.
The Moon is 23 deg 38 minutes in Taurus.

I see no application between Jupiter and Mercury. Uranus is prominently and almost exactly conjunct the 7th cusp (her ascendant). Jupiter is immediately applying to a square to Saturn in just 2 minutes, the ruler of her 11th and 12th houses, radical 5th and 6th. She is heading towards her own self-undoing? All of these factors would lead me to believe the answer is “No”.

However, I do see the Moon coming to a sextile with Mercury, which is the ruler of her 7th. The Moon is strong in Taurus. What is confusing me is who does the Moon represent? Does it represent me, since I asked the question? Or does it represent her? If it represents her, this would seem to imply perfection. And if it represents me, what does the upcoming sextile to her 7th mean?

Any feedback would be much appreciated. Thank you.
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 800

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't looked at the chart, but I did one at a similar time, so I know what it looks like, sorta.

You might want to consider that the Moon (which should represent her, as the significator of women in general and wives in particular) is applying by close conjunction to Algol, meaning she will 'lose her head'. I would say that Uranus, significator of divorces, separations, etc., is not a good sign. Perhaps with the Moon applying by sextile to Merc. this would mean that she has the *intention* of marrying (as Moon also signifies 'action'), but 'loses her head' first (Algol) and makes a run for it (Uranus)? Or maybe -He- makes a run for it, since it's on her 7th? That he as Jupiter is placed in the 11th and retrograde would be more of an indicator of 'just friends' rather than a committed relationship, and that he, also, may have a change of heart...

Anyone else?
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 599

Posted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow! I didn’t catch the Algol conjunction. I think you got the significtaors mixed up a bit because you don't have the chart in front of you, because she is Jupiter (lord 7) and he is Mercury (lord 1). I looked up Algol on the web and found that its longitude for 1900 is 24 TAU 46, but for 2000 it is 26 TAU 10. So if she is the Moon, she sextiles Mercury first and then conjuncts Algol. But there is no reception between the Moon and Mercury, so I agree with your interpretation that she is heading towards the marriage, sbe has the opportunity, but with Uranus on her ascendant, and her primary significator coming to a square with Saturn in her 5th in just a matter of 2 minutes (possibly even before the Moon sextiles Merc), it seems like a “No”. Then the Moon goes on to conjunct Algol, and then Venus, which is the ruler of her 8th, all in quick succession!

A brief background of the situation that may help you understand this chart better. They go away to a lot of weekend parties (another one coming up the 4rth of July weekend). I have heard from other people that although she is engaged to my friend, she flirts with anyone and everyone. Therefore, if you take another look at the placement of the Moon, (her 3rd, short journeys), Mercury (her partner in the fifth, parties and fun) and Jupiter (her 9th - this one doesn't make sense though...I guess you can't win them all), they all fall into place.

On further review I find it interesting that the Moon is in its exaltation (she is so sure of herself, she thinks she can get away with anything?) – but does that make her stronger, strong enough to combat Algol? I know Lilly places a lot of emphasis on the strength of the Moon, giving it more significance than the strength of the primary significators. Or is it a “false” sense of power?

Also, I don’t have SolarFire right now, but it would be interesting to know if there is any correspondence between the time that the Moon conjuncts Algol and Jupiter squares Saturn. I wouldn't be surprised if they happen at almost exactly the same time.

On another note, I notice that Mercury goes on to sextile Venus, and she could also be represented by Venus - but does it? Maybe Venus slips into Gemini before the sextile perfects. Regardless, I think the almost exact square of Jupiter to Saturn takes precedence, along with ominous Uranus sitting whack on the descendant says it all. Any thoughts?
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 550
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an interesting situation. Since you say that you don’t know the woman involved, I would have to assume that you know the man who she’s involved with. That begs the question as to what your relationship is with this man. A good horary has to have some personal involvement by the querent, and if that’s you, it would help to know what it is that you’re trying to find out.

Since a marriage is between two people, the question can just as easily be, “Will He Marry?"
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 599

Posted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Since a marriage is between two people, the question can just as easily be, “Will He Marry?"

Good catch, Mark! This is someone I used to go out with. I know it's really none of my business anymore, and I'm surprised I didn't get a late ascendant. I could have asked the question as you said, but questions like that always confuse me - he would have gotten the 7th, and she the 1st, but then I would have had trouble separating myself out of the equation. Because I had a direct relationship with him, I would have gotten the first as well! So which house is me and which one is her? I thought a better way would be to ask a question about her instead of him. While its true that we ended up with the same houses, I still managed (at least I think I did) to take myself out. Do you agree?
Hope all is well with you; I'm well, and haven't felt the need to do a "major" horary for myself for quite a while now. That is refreshing and a good thing... Smile
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi T Smile
ok, here's my take on this. She is shown by Jupiter, lord of the 7th, and her partner by Mercury, lord of 1st. The fact that you, the querent, are also the 1st, is irrelevant here, imo. There is no aspect forming between Mercury and Jupiter and no reception, translation or collection of light, so my initial judgement would be to say "no, she won't marry this man." However I don't think we can overlook the Moon, which here rules her 5th and goes to an immediate sextile of Mercury, which rules her partner. The 5th is the house of romance and fun, so this suggests that while she may not marry, she is likely to initiate something that he will be in happy agreement with. The Moon then goes on to conjoin Venus, natural ruler of marriage, so it may well be that a marriage or some other significant union may take place in 5 units of time. Given that the Moon is in Taurus and a cadent house, we could be looking at 5 months. In summary then, the primary rulers say "no", yet the Moon says "possibly" or "she'd like to and may wish to move in that direction."

This brings me to that upcoming square of retrograde Jupiter to the weak Saturn. It won't perfect before the Moon's aspects form up. It does indicate some restriction, blockage or opposition and this could be as a result of some foolish act on her part. (Saturn rules her 12th)

That's about as much as I can harvest from this. Hope it makes some kind of sense! Smile

cheers...
===
Pete
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MarkF



Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 550
Location: Outside Washington, DC

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'm not sure I'd judge this chart given what I said above but....

I'd take the ASC ruler Mercury for Taurus7 plain and simple. It's her chart; no one else asked her the question. Since it's about an old BF, he'd be the 7th house ruler, Jupiter retrograde. The Moon would also represent her.

I see this whole chart as being about Taurus7 and the guy she used to go out with. Whether the other woman will show up is incidental.

The main point is that there is no contact between Mercury and Jupiter, and not between the Moon and Jupiter. The Moon will hit that obstacle of Saturn by sextile soon though. Since I'm not sure that this chart is completely radical, I'd just see Saturn as an obstacle in the path of Taurus7. Saturn does rule the 5th house, which would be the pleasurable side to things. I think you could call this collection of light – first Jupiter was square to Saturn, then the Moon applies to it’s sextile. But if this is collection, it doesn’t produce anything positive. It’s more of the case of the two of them being united by the same obstacle.

I can't make out much from the way that Jupiter and Saturn will be in this long dance of an applying square. Saturn just met Jupiter by square and Jupiter will meet Saturn again when it turns direct.

I also don't know much of what to think of that applying sextile of Venus to Mercury which doesn't perfect before Venus swithces signs. Venus herself is widely conjunct Algol. Maybe it means that Taurus7 has lost her head over the potential of her ex getting married. But Venus is separated about 3 degrees from Algol and now is closer to Alcyone, the Pleiades. Alcyone seems to represent a kind of overheated sexuality, female sexuality in particular.

Jupiter retrograde could show that he's going back to Taurus7, but with no applying aspects, that's not likely. It could also mean he's going back to the woman he's marrying.

The other thing I notice is that Uranus is right on the 7th house cusp. I'd say that shows a split between Taurus7 and this guy.
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Sue



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 945
Location: Australia

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a real problem with questions like this. You are right about one thing. This is absolutely none of your business and has nothing to do with you. Not only that, you are asking this question with less than honourable intent and wishing this person harm by hoping that the her relationship will fail. Where is the integrity in that? Having the ability to use horary does not give us the right to use it.
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ryvita



Joined: 16 Feb 2006
Posts: 125
Location: england

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:46 am    Post subject: Hi all Reply with quote

I am unsure as to what ethical or unethical questions are acceptable? Question like finding out what is the state of my ex's new relation, will intent that he should not be happy with someone else and only me. That will be selfish and inconsidered on my part as my ex is a past event.

Question like is my ex living me for someone else should also be regarded as unethical behaviour? It will also be considered as out of the norms also as I will have a climpse of the third party....

Question like is my boss going to be retired, will understate that i am for his job, that should be considered also unethical?

But I think the intent of taurus7 is as to whether she is still burned by this relationship hence bitter feelings towards the ex. As regards to this new lady with her ex, I agree with sue, she is only a third party that had nothing to do with the ex couple unless she was a close friend of taurus7??

It seems that horary astrology provide querents the tool to look deep inside the mirror hence being inconsidered in our requests ....but I did not see yet an ethical rules who state what to ask and not. I only read on how to formulate the questions.. I think it is more question of morality and sense of dignity that we need to focus upon.


Does anyone know if Lilly's mention those rules, when reading his examples, my first impression is that he was mentioning all characteres in the story to the querent... (need to find the example)can be the ones that the querent were unaware!!!


i am not judging taurus7 as it is not my place, she may have her reasons but i think that should be a fantastic debate about ethical behaviours

have a nice day[/list]
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 800

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the whole ethical and moral behaviour argument is culturally relative and therefore isn't as potent as some practitioners make it. What if we are practicing horary in a polygamous society and are asking about the actions of the third wife? What if we're in a country where having mistresses is commonplace (and there are more countries where it IS commonplace than not) and the mistress is asking about the wife? Or the wife about the mistress? Or the husband about the wife and mistress? If I ask when my grandmother will die and I will inherit her estate, is that unethical, given that she is 95 and I love her deeply but know I stand to get a good chunk of money?

I've done plenty of testing of what might be considered 'unethical' questions, and what I've found is that if the stars don't like the question they won't give you an answer, full stop. I'm not sure the stars are quite as regimented in their outlook as human beings are. If a person goes to an astrologer whose beliefs clash with the querent's, the astrologer can always refuse to answer the question. But a person doing a chart for his/herself is making the choice to find out the answer, and it's up to them to deal with that answer, either good or bad or nonexistent.
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Sue



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 945
Location: Australia

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was not meant to be a personal attack but it is an issue about which I feel strongly. Horary is a tool that can be used to give us guidance about an issue of concern to us. I do not consider asking about the boss's upcoming retirement unethical if it concerns your own future. Even asking about your ex partner's upcoming marriage is possible if you are hoping to reunite and you ask about the matter with the best of intentions. You are still seeking some guidance on a matter of personal concern. But asking about someone you do not know, about a matter that has nothing to do with you and hoping that the answer will be a negative one for the subject of your enquiry is not only unethical but rather misses the point of horary as a tool for guidance. When I was studing for my Natural Therapies degree many, many years ago we had the first aphorism of Hippocrates drummed into us - 'first, do no harm.' It's something I always try to remember. This can also apply to astrology when dealing with people, either directly or indirectly and should be uppermost in our minds - 'first, do no harm'.
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 800

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see your point but I think there's something to be said concerning triangulation questions, in that there's almost always going to be an ulterior motive in a love triangle, and therefore if we aren't 'allowed' to ask, horary practitioners will lose an awful lot of business... do I wish the wife of my lover harm? Not necessarily, but I -do- want them to divorce, so I can be with him freely and so on... that's a different kind of question than, "Will my lover's wife suffer a horrible and painful death so I can be with him?" Asking 'Will they divorce' shouldn't necessarily be thought a harmful question if there is a reasonable hope that they will...

There are shades and shades of grey in human experience. I agree certain questions should probably not be asked or answered, but that's not going to stop most people from trying, anyway! Cool
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Deb
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4132
Location: England

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zohra writes:

Quote:
It seems that horary astrology provide querents the tool to look deep inside the mirror hence being inconsidered in our requests ....but I did not see yet an ethical rules who state what to ask and not. I only read on how to formulate the questions.. I think it is more question of morality and sense of dignity that we need to focus upon.

Does anyone know if Lilly's mention those rules, when reading his examples


I’m sure it would only be a matter of time before someone pointed to one of Lilly’s charts as an example that he too could ask ‘iffy’ questions, but his letter to the student makes it very clear that he saw an ethical approach to horary as a fundamental necessity. Two key phrases that are often repeated:

Quote:
As thou daily conversest with the heavens, so instruct and form thy minde according to the image of Divinity

The more holy thou art, and more neer to God, the purer judgement thou shalt give


Also bear in mind that in the past, astrologers had a natural assumption that studying astrology brought them closer to the divine principles of the Creator, for which they expected to increase ‘attunement’ by developing their own spirituality. Lilly was certainly aware of the views of Bonatus and shows his support of his second consideration in his editorial comment:

Quote:
The Second Consideration is (what we hinted at before) the method or manner everyone ought to observe that enquires of an Astrologer; which is, that when he intends to take an artist's judgment of things past, present, or to come, he should, first, with a devout spirit, pray unto the Lord, from whom proceeds the success of every lawful enterprise, that he would grant him the knowledge of those things of the truth of which he would be resolved; and then let him apply himself to the astrologer with a serious intent of being satisfied in some certain and particular doubt, and this not on trifling occasions, or light sudden emotions, much less on matters base or unlawful, as many ignorant people used to do; but in matters of honest importance, and such as have possessed and disturbed his mind for the space of a day and night or longer; unless in sudden accidents which admit not of delay.

Note by Lilly. - Those that take this sober course, shall find the truth in what they enquire after; but whosoever do otherwise, deceive both themselves and the artist


I agree that what is considered ‘ethical’ or even what is considered ‘important’ or ‘sincere’ is too relative for any of us attempt to draw up firm guidelines. It is for the astrologer to probe and remain conscious of what query is really driving the need for the horary and why. Of course, this all gets complicated when the querent is also the astrologer, because the astrologer is usually there to act as an emotionally-independent translator that can see everything in a clearer context and within a bigger picture than the querent is able to (because of whatever emotional confusion or dependency has led to the question being asked). Ethical implications aside, I think in this situation Mark is right to remind T7 that she is the querent, represented by the ascendant, and to consider how this chart might be relating to her own relationship issues. I like the phrase that Zohra used, that horary requires us to “look deep inside the mirror”.

Olivia Barclay left some classic words of wisdom on the need to not only ask an honest question, but to also ask it in a straightforward and honest manner, so that any necessary soul searching is done beforehand and both querent and astrologer can step beyond playing games with each other and get to the heart of the issue being asked about. I don’t know if this is what I would call an ‘ethical guideline’ but I think it’s an important one for maintaining a necessary sense of integrity in the question:

Quote:
A question asked with naive simplicity is better than a carefully contrived one. If your question is indirect, so will the answer be. Sometimes it may take a while to understand your own motive in asking a question. We live in an age of euphemisms, when directness and forthright honesty — so necessary in asking questions in horary — is a rare and unpractised art. Some people are incapable of an honest approach, saying ‘Is this a good moment to start a new venture?” and hoping you will think they mean a business venture, when in reality they mean ‘Will I have a love affair with so and so? The astrologer must know the real question because judgement depends on understanding it - Horary Astrology Rediscovered
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Gunhilde



Joined: 10 Jun 2006
Posts: 800

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now with Barclay I'm in complete agreement on this. The question certainly shapes the answer, and it behooves the querent to be completely honest, perhaps doubly so when asking questions for oneself. I've found in charts I've asked for myself, where I haven't been *completely* honest Confused , that I'll get Neptune in the 1st or in the house of the quesited, anyway, or some other indication that I'm not walking the straight and narrow. Even if I don't incorporate that into the actual answer, it is certainly a warning; indeed I find all the outer planets are often good indicators of the mind of the querent.

My, those stars are smart. They -are- 'neer to God'. Very Happy
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 599

Posted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I see this whole chart as being about Taurus7 and the guy she used to go out with. Whether the other woman will show up is incidental.

Mark,
As I mentioned in my earlier post, I asked this question about her and not him because I wanted to take myself OUT of the equation.

Quote:
Since I'm not sure that this chart is completely radical, I'd just see Saturn as an obstacle in the path of Taurus7.

I think the chart is radical because there is planetary hour agreement.

Quote:
I also don't know much of what to think of the recent sextile of Mercury to Venus, which is widely conjunct Algol. Maybe it means that Taurus7 has lost her head over the potential of her ex getting married.

You know, that is just so ludicrous, honestly!
This question was asked out of pure curiousity and no ulterior motive. I have to agree with the others when they say that it's really not my business, but I heard these stories about her and the question came.

If I wanted to ask a question about him, don't you think it would have made more sense to ask "Will we re-unite?" So I ask the question "Will she marry?", hoping that the horary will say no, and it did. Wow! By default that means he is going to come back to me, and this is my golden opportunity to pursue him again. Just brilliant!! Shocked

I'm a very direct person and I really don't have the time or inclination to beat around the bush, and that includes questions asked of the universe at large.

T7


Last edited by Taurus7 on Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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