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Is Pluto really a planet
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1381

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
...there is an angle to this that is being overlooked: the realization that Pluto belongs to a class of which there are many others and which --as more are discovered-- will make it harder for astrologers who use Pluto to keep ignoring them.

Why is scientific classification so important? It doesn’t matter what group we put Pluto into, or whether it even belongs to a group. There aren’t and won’t be any others of the same class as Pluto. Pluto’s the one that was discovered over 75 years ago and was called a planet for all those years. Pluto’s the one that was known for years as the little planet way, way out there at the edge of the solar system. Pluto’s the one that received its name from the contribution of a schoolgirl through public participation in its naming, and remained a favorite planet of kids (I think my memory serves me well here).

Pluto has appealed to the human imagination from the beginning, not as the member of a class, but as Pluto. That could be the key to it all. When Pluto was demoted those grown-up school kids defended their favorite planet – and most of them aren’t astrologers. Have any of those other new things out there even come close to Pluto’s effect on the public? They mostly kind of get a yawn, don’t they? Folks are fond of Pluto. Some people do have their imaginations tickled by asteroids and other objects or points, but the overall effect is diffuse and diluted. There are too many. It’s possible to pick and choose, but they can all easily be left behind. Pluto, however, has been able to capture, contain, and powerfully present to us the magic and mystery of a body outside of the inner circle, the club. For most of us it’s nearly impossible to completely leave Pluto out of a chart. We may not use it in delineation, but at some point we will at least become aware of its location. The Outsider persists.

Pluto grabbed the human imagination from the beginning of its known existence. So did astrology. Some things beguile and fascinate. Yes, this all surely seems silly to those who must start with a proper classification. My unscientific hunch is that those people aren’t temperamentally suited to astrology. But that’s sheer opinion; i.e., something pleasurable to say.



Quote:
Yes. Labels and classifications have cognitive and social consequences. If I decide to call you "juvenile an arrogant", that will influence others who do not know you yet, and who may come to think that you are this or that based on that label. But once they got to really know you, that label wont't have any effect on them.

Interesting example. With your calling someone "juvenile and arrogant", some people who don’t know him but do know you may possibly not be strongly influenced by your words. However, they may now have a very different opinion of you – someone they may have known for years. They come to learn that their previous label and classification of you, based on years of experience, was wrong. In this case, the label and classification of someone does not influence the opinions and actions of others toward that person, but causes the others to rethink and correct their label and classification of the speaker. Not creating a classification, but destroying a classification.
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Juan



Joined: 21 May 2007
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Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
Why is scientific classification so important? It doesn’t matter what group we put Pluto into, or whether it even belongs to a group. There aren’t and won’t be any others of the same class as Pluto.

Why are classifications important? I will leave this question aside.

Pluto has its own individual history unlike any other other, it has its own imprint in the collective memory, and you have summarized some of the characteristics of this imprint. But you can use the same argument to characterize as unique and a class of their own Uranus, Neptune, the 4 asteroids Ceres-Pallas-Juno-Vesta, Chiron, etc. They all have unique histories and characteristics.

What you say about Pluto, that it has been alone for 75 years and that it "has appealed to the human imagination from the beginning, not as the member of a class, but as Pluto", applies even more to Uranus, which was alone and very, very distant (at the time) for more than 80 years before Neptune was dicovered.

The first 4 asteroids were unique and isolated for a long period of time, they were called "planets" for 40 years during which they left their imprint as a class of their own, and Chiron.. well, it was soon called "a maverick", a class of its own, and it has also left its unique characteristic imprint in Astrology, regardless of the sympathy or antipathy we feel for its use in delineation.

The class of the "plutons" or icy dwarfs to which Pluto belongs, i.e., objects like Orcus, Ixión, Varuna, Sedna, Quaoar, Chaos, Logos, etc. are also very unique and individual each in their own way. They also have their own astrological history of discovery and of formation of their individual, unique meaning. I a few decades from now others will be able to write about them in ways similar to how you are writing about Pluto now.

Quote:
Have any of those other new things out there even come close to Pluto’s effect on the public? They mostly kind of get a yawn, don’t they?

Yes. But the "effect on the public" is a result of the amount of press coverage it receives. Do astrologers judge the astrological significance of an object by the amount of press coverage it receives?

Quote:
Pluto, however, has been able to capture, contain, and powerfully present to us the magic and mystery of a body outside of the inner circle, the club. For most of us it’s nearly impossible to completely leave Pluto out of a chart. We may not use it in delineation, but at some point we will at least become aware of its location. The Outsider persists.

Now you are not referring to the public but to astrologers. What you say is a result of the time (75 years) that astrologers have considered Pluto a planet that belongs in any astrological chart. How many years after Pluto's discovery do you think it took astrologers to get used to (or be able to) include it in charts? Astrologers' attachment to Pluto is a result of decades of use and planetary "status". To talk in the same way about the newly discovered objects about the size of Pluto in its orbital vicinity or beyond, you would have to let pass at least 2 generations of astrologers.

Quote:
Some people do have their imaginations tickled by asteroids and other objects or points, but the overall effect is diffuse and diluted. There are too many. It’s possible to pick and choose, but they can all easily be left behind.

Anything new in Astrology is by necessity "diffuse and diluted". When Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto were discovered their astrological meaning was for years or decades "diffuse and diluted" (the meaning of Neptune still is) because nobody was sure what it was astrologically or how to use it. The "there are too many" is a problem that has to be faced in search of solutions, not a justification to act like the ostrich.

Juan


Last edited by Juan on Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The first 4 asteroids were unique and isolated for a long period of time, they were called "planets" for 40 years during which they left their imprint as a class of their own,...

On page 1 of this thread I wrote:
Quote:
In an age long ago, when I was 9 years old and in the 4th grade, we made models of the Sun and planets and hung them from the hall ceiling. First came the Sun, then Mercury, and out to Pluto. There was an attempt to make it all somewhat to scale: little Pluto was way, way down the hall. The Sun and its 9 planets (counting Earth, of course). This was the basic knowledge taught in schools worldwide for years.

So where were those asteroids in my 1960s childhood? They never made it into our impressive hall display. Was I cheated? Mad I don’t even remember hearing their names until much later. Not much of an imprint. Razz


Quote:

The class of the "plutons" or icy dwarfs to which Pluto belongs, i.e., objects like Orcus, Ixión, Varuna, Sedna, Quaoar, Chaos, Logos, etc. are also very unique and individual each in their own way.

Your “etc.” says it all! 'And so forth and so on.' And on, and on...Don’t forget the several thousand asteroids. After all, they exist, therefore they must have astrological meaning. Confused This is high-anxiety astrology – the inability to ever catch up. Maybe Pluto, with its seniority and familiarity, is the perfect spokesman and representative of symbolism for the group. Do we really need every individual body of a minor group? I completely reject the idea that each one individually has astrological significations that are important enough to spend valuable time on.


Quote:
The "there are too many" is a problem that has to be faced in search of solutions, not a justification to act like the ostrich.

The problem is the embarrassment of riches and the grabbing at everything. Pluto’s best contribution may be as a boundary-marker, as a warning of the furthest limits before astrology self-destructs into thousands of useless fragments. That kind of fits its acquired astrological meaning, don’t you think?


Last edited by ### on Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Juan



Joined: 21 May 2007
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Location: San José, Costa Rica

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
Pluto’s best contribution may be as a boundary-marker, as a warning of the furthest limits before astrology self-destructs into thousands of useless fragments.


... or changes.

Juan
.


Last edited by Juan on Mon Aug 27, 2007 8:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mike



Joined: 19 Jul 2007
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Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what Juan Revilla is proposing
is the folowing: selecting among
let's say 15 "planets", 7 that serve
for the specific inquiry. So it's some
sort of meritocracy rather than a
aristocracy of 7 or 9 planets, or worse
yet a mediocracy of 100..... planets.
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Juan



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Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:12 pm    Post subject: icy dwarfs: methodology Reply with quote

It is not possible to work with a new tool if we don't know how to use it, or to reach sensible conclusions about the place of the plutonic icy dwarfs in Astrology --discovered 2 to 7 years ago-- by comparing them with an astrological tradition of more than 2000 years that has no place for them.

Since their astrological role is not known, working with them can be only experimental or in a context of research on what their astrological characteristics might be. To pretend to use them in consultation or profesional astrological work before having mastered their practical use is the equivalent of treating Astrology as if it were child's play.

Before they can make their way into astrological culture like Pluto has done, a number of astrologers have to take them seriously and start experimenting with them, trying to find answers and solutions to the questions and problems they represent.

Here is the qualitative research methodology I use in my own work.

One starts by defining a population. The population with which astrologers work almost exclusively are symbolical entities and cultural artifacts such as "event", "person", "biography", "relationship", "life", "experience", "interrogation", "inauguration", "consultation", "psychological complex" or dynamics, "process", "political entity", "nation", "business", etc., which the astrologer studies by means of conventional models or "charts".

The population must be chosen so that:

1- it can be charted in terms of a (or the) most significant moment, i.e., a specific time is known which is accepted as representing the artifact. Some events do not lend easily to be reduced to a single moment of time or chart, and are made of a series of them over an extended period of time (weeks or months). These "extended time" cases can also be part of the study, but they are incorporated at a later stage through theoretical sampling.

2- the chart or moment chosen must have the planet very focal or "central", critically "at the core", so that the artifact which it represents (biography, event, etc.) informs us about the planet, speaks and says things about this planet, it is its "incarnation". The selection is done in terms of 1-degree or less conjunctions or oppositions of the specific planet and the Sun, and when the hour or time of the day is at least approximately known, conjunctions to the Moon are added.

The description or characteristics of each case are examined or processed through analytic induction in terms of similarities with the "domain and gesture" that the orbital symbolism suggests or evokes aprioristically, one does not start completely from scratch but with the structure or mold provided by the place the orbit occupies in the solar system and the shape of this orbit, which help form the initial metaphors and delimit the initial meaning that is going to be refined and singularized.

The role of orbital symbolism at this stage is only suggestive and evocative, and does not imply an a-priori definition of the planet's meaning; however, it delimits this meaning, contrary to mythological associations which tend to propagate it through different orbital domains.

Size or mythological associations are never a factor. Orbital symbolism is the fundamental paradigm of planetary meaning as it has always been used by astrologers, and demonstrates that mythology and "name" are not necessary and in my opinion, not desirable. Both the "name paradigm" and the orbital paradigm illustrate the fact that astrologers have never started from scratch.

The cases selected must pass another filter: the events or biographies that they represent must be well documented, so that their characteristics can be derived and classified into semantic categories, keywords, dynamical explanations, etc., by means of a methodology known as "content analysis".

This approach makes it harder to find cases, but it guarantees that the reduced number of them are sufficiently critical and strong so that, no matter how different the circumstances charted by them are, and no matter how the astrologer interprets them (i.e., the meaning they are given by each astrologer can be widely different), whatever is said about them will be a reflection of what the planet represents, because the identity between the planet and the event is established a priori and cannot be contested.

The constraint of 1-degree solar and lunar conjunction or opposition defines a "signature", the astrologer then looks for the signature in charts, and doesn't need to interpret the planet, all that is required is a methodology by means of which one can make the event or biography "talk" or inform us about itself.

Once this has been done, the last step is separating the symbolism of the Sun or the Moon --which is well known-- from what they are in dialogue or conflict with. The result of this separation is the dynamical understanding of the astrological characteristics of the planet, which are later refined by means of puposeful sampling until no more refinement is needed.

Juan
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SGFoxe



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
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Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It doesn't matter what Pluto is classified as -- Pluto's a celestial entity that demonstratively affects our lives -- the 492 NE/PL cycle appeared in myth before the discovery of these rocks in space -- as the Phoenix. As a stand alone presence, well Ambassador from the van Kuyper belt -- representative of a whole class of van kyperian asteroids somehow suggest the dark sinister force Pluto qua Lucifer & the demons -- I think this change in status doesn't knock him off my horoscope -- but, the moon isn't a planet either -- & if Pluto qua rep of an asteroid belt, I suggest Ceres be admitted to the horoscope under the same definition as the "official" rep of the "domestic" asteroid belt -- as such, it provides a new nuance of explication of the Proserphine myth -- some sort of force that wanders periodically between the asteroid belts
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aquirata



Joined: 31 Mar 2006
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Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:15 pm    Post subject: Re: icy dwarfs: methodology Reply with quote

Juan wrote:
Here is the qualitative research methodology I use in my own work.

Juan,

You describe a structured approach to research, which is very commendable. Few people take the time and make the effort to go through all that trouble.

It caught my attention that you don't consider size to be a factor. Surely this will be very difficult to justify in light of the myriad celestial bodies one is faced with when there is no cut-off point. One cannot deny that the Sun and Moon influence our lives much more than e.g. Pluto does. I would also submit that the five other ancient planets will outweigh the evidence of any other planet, dwarf planet, asteroid or what have you, given equivalent circumstances.

It is quite possible that there is a physical mechanism that can be associated with the various correlations we note. In fact, orbital characteristics are physical in nature, and they most likely link up with Earth through some kind of resonance. If this is the case, physical size will definitely be a factor.

On the methodology itself, I see three potential roadblocks. Selection of the most significant moment will be open to interpretation, so you will have to work extra hard to make the definitions and methodology as unambiguous as possible. Moreover, you will need to collect and analyze not just hundreds but thousands of cases in order to make your results statistically significant. This may or may not be feasible, depending on other factors. And finally, you will need to avoid selection bias; in other words, the charts selected will have certain configurations in terms of planets, aspects, signs, houses, etc. You will need to be able to prove that the distribution of these configurations is 'random', i.e. they do not affect the result.

This critique of course is not meant to discourage your efforts, quite the contrary. Not everything is worthy of criticism. Hope you will take this in a positive way.
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cosmicdolphin



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Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

It is a planet!

just imagine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiqkDm9UoKo about Pluto

on a serious side,

Pluto unlike everything in Kuiper belt has unusual orbit it is ecliptical it is crossing one of the outer planet'orbit.. i forgot .. could be Neptune's..

astronomers know nothign about pluto. the only photo exists of a pluto only contains a small icy spot. Until the sattilite does get to Pluto's orbit. i do not want to speculate.. nor want to .. after all, it is my ruling planet!

Cheers
CD
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Andres



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Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pluto is jumping forward and afterward in more than year my Moon. I believe if it itsn"t planet than some things in our life can not be so very bad when this planet is crossing natal planets.

Andres
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SunPluto



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Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andres wrote:
Pluto is jumping forward and afterward in more than year my Moon. I believe if it itsn"t planet than some things in our life can not be so very bad when this planet is crossing natal planets.

Andres


I'm no expert but I believe Pluto affects us.

My sun conjuncts pluto and my dad died the day I was born.
When I was two it hit my sun again during a retrograde hit and I nearly died.

Then when it squared my moon I experienced death again ! my grandmother died, I got divorced, moved houses several times, changed jobs...death and " death" AGAIN.

If its not pluto what the hell is it ?
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Andres



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Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am sure it is Pluto SunPluto.
So I also see my period when I was been very much sick, that Pluto on that time conjucted Mars. I have also been on high risk operation on head when Pluto just came into Scorpio.

Now I waiting for more fight with my ex wife and it can be that some manipulative woman will come to my life. Just good to know about position of Pluto these months and years.

Andres
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh my am I sorry I missed out on this discussion. There seems to have been quite a party! I don't really know where to start but when it comes to drinks, I might as well try to get into little bit of everything all at once! Smile

Eris (Xena) it could be argued is equally elliptic as Pluto. Neptune doesn't fit into the definition of Bode's law (just to add to the confusion) and Uranus is upside down!

Really, anything that orbits the Sun or enters the Sun's gravity field, or the boundaries of the Solar system, must in some way be related to or relate to the Sun or the Solar system. Al H. Morrison (CAO TIMES) and Zane Stein (Chiron) were some 25 years ago working with the meaning of 'orbit' crossers - which by the way is one of the important virutes of comets (which are only small balls of ice!) That what was once far away is now close up! The question in this case is how you deal with having something stuck right under your nose that you are used to having at a distance.

I feel quite comfortable adding Chiron to my natal charts. The glyph given Chiron was the result of a democratic prosess amoung astrologers and voted upon at the CAO General Convention at San Diego CA on August 18. 1978.

Every astrologer should really try to get to see some of these objects in telescopes. It really puts the experience of astrology into a 'new' (hands on) perspective.
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Andrew Bevan



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Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slightly beside the topic, but some of the contemporary research done by Morrison in the 80's on the asteroids America, Amor, Apollo, Atlantis, Bacchus, Eros, Hidalgo, Icarus, Lilith, Pandora, Psyche, Sappho, Toro and Urania is really quite fascinating.

The present discussion is not about asteroids - for or against, but some of these perspectives do shed light on what is required to give meaning in an astrological chart and also the limitations that these interpretations or meanings should be given.

I think that 'A Planet is like a Landmark'. Pluto was a landmark in its time. We could sit back quite comfortably and wait another 70 years for astronomers to reach yet another definition of the planets and the solar system. And unless we have to integrate dark matter into our birthcharts then maybe everyone will be happy! Leery
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Juan



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Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andrew J. Bevan wrote:
The present discussion is not about asteroids - for or against, but some of these perspectives do shed light on what is required to give meaning in an astrological chart and also the limitations that these interpretations or meanings should be given.

I think you just nailed what is the heart of the matter: that the problems one faces when dealing with new planets or new objects SHED LIGHT on many important astrological issues that are not directly related to them, such as:

- how is the meaning of a planet constructed?
- what are the traditional paradigms that these objects break? (e.g., rulership schemes, 7-10 planets charts vs 60-600 planets "charts", etc.)
- what new resources are needed to deal with these problems?
- what to include and what to exclude from a chart or from analysis?
- what are the most common prejudices against their use (or even their study), and what these prejudices tell about astrology and about astrologers?

I like to say that all this is equivalent to "leaving astrology naked", showing what it is made of.

Juan


Last edited by Juan on Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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