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Is Pluto really a planet
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yuzuru



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 1360

Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:35 pm    Post subject: Is Pluto really a planet Reply with quote

From CNN
Quote:
Nearly 2,500 astronomers from 75 countries gathered in Prague Monday to come up with a universal definition of what qualifies as a planet and possibly decide whether Pluto should keep its planet status.


http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/space/08/14/planet.meeting.ap/index.html

What I find really amusing is that they are all trying to find a "scientific" definition of planet... because as "scientists" we have all to have "clear definitions".

Of course the problem is that "planet" is a word proudly invented by the astrologers to separate the moving stars from the fixed ones, so there will always be only the seven big ones Wink

Yuzuru
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Tom
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Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm secretly, OK not so secretly, hoping for Pluto's demotion. If this happens the initial response in modern astrology will be "ho hum, we know it is a planet, so astronomers' definitions won't affect us." But then, after a while some piece of space dust will determined to be in the same class as Pluto. Then some astrologer will demand equal status, perhaps even rulership of Taurus, Libra, Virgo, or Gemini. At the rate that new objects are being discovered there will soon be others. Then the Linda Goodman fans will delight in her prediction of one planet per sign has come true. But after each sign has one object ruling it, someone will discover another "planet" that will of course require a sign or something to rule. The symmetry will again be broken.

Or perhaps astrologers will rescind Pluto's rulership of Scorpio and give it back to Mars, thereby requiring all sorts of new books to be written. NCGR will spend years studying the rulerships given to Pluto and finding proper homes for them, such as atomic energy. The possibilities for astrological chaos are endless, if Pluto gets demoted. I can't wait.

Tom
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Sue



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Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I reckon nothing will change. If astrologers can insist that you cannot have a proper delineation of a birth chart without Chiron then they are not going to leave Pluto out. Chiron is an asteroid so Pluto not being a planet will not matter.

My concern is what happens to the 8th house/Pluto/sex thread if Pluto gets demoted and astrologers start to ignore it. Will Deb have to edit it all to replace Pluto with Mars? And can we finally put sex back into the 5th house?

I just checked out a poll they have on the link given above and 72% of people say that Pluto should maintain its planet status. Bet the voters are all modern astrologers. Smile

I'm with you, Tom. Can't wait!!
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
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Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In an age long ago, when I was 9 years old and in the 4th grade, we made models of the Sun and planets and hung them from the hall ceiling. First came the Sun, then Mercury, and out to Pluto. There was an attempt to make it all somewhat to scale: little Pluto was way, way down the hall. The Sun and its 9 planets (counting Earth, of course). This was the basic knowledge taught in schools worldwide for years.

Why should modern astrologers be ridiculed if scientists want to change the classification of Pluto? Is it their fault that Pluto was called a planet for seventy years? Let’s leave the modern astrologers alone and get on with what we have to do. I’m also critical of many aspects of modern astrology, but let’s give those who practice it half a chance. They have been using the expanded solar system given to them by science. We can rub our hands together in glee over the fuss with Pluto, but the fact is that we’re still left with Uranus and Neptune – the solar system isn’t what it was three centuries ago.

Traditional astrologers read their sources to master the use of non-physical Arabic parts, or Greek lots, derived from the addition and subtraction of other bodies’ positions. Modern science has at least given actual physical bodies for astrologers to work with. What should most deservedly be sneered at – Pluto, or some ‘meaningful’ position calculated from the Ascendant plus Moon minus Sun?
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yuzuru



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Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What should most deservedly be sneered at – Pluto, or some ‘meaningful’ position calculated from the Ascendant plus Moon minus Sun?


the Meaningful position without a doubt... Fortuna beats pluto in REAL delineation every time Leery
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Sue



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think anyone was ridiculing modern astrologers but rather teasing about the attitude that anything goes in modern astrology. No one was sneering but just having a sense of humour about it. Sometimes new discoveries reach ridiculous proportions. When Sedna was discovered it took less than a week for an article to appear blaming Sedna for the Christmas tsunami. If you can imagine the same thing happening with astrologers in 1930 when Pluto was discovered then you will see the point. The issue for me is not that modern astrologers use the outer planets but that many of them use them without any real understanding.

One of my best friends is a modern astrologer. I have an enormous amount of respect for her and she is one of the best astrologers I know. However, I was having a conversation with her the other day and she said that she no longer gives the outer planets rulerships and uses the traditional rulerships for the other planets. This attitude is due largely to her attendance at some of Deb's lectures a few years ago (where we met). Even though my friend uses the outer planets she does so in a similar way that a traditional astrologer might use them. And this is one of the points that Tom was making. Will the downgrading of Pluto lead to modern astrologers finally giving rulership of Scorpio back to Mars where it belongs?

Quote:
Modern science has at least given actual physical bodies for astrologers to work with.


Just because it is there doesn't mean it should be used. Astrology is not science and doesn't really need science to make it meaningful. But this artificially polarisation between traditional and modern astrology is not as black and white as it appears. In the Dennis Elwell article I referred to on another thread he says,

Quote:
There cannot be two astrologies - they belong to the same continuum, and are simply positioned at different points along the river.


Dennis Elwell is very much a modern astrologer and has been quite critical of much in traditional astrology. However, I don't think too many traditional astrologers would dismiss his work or ever accuse him of being a poor astrologer. I know that he commands a great deal of respect from many traditional astrologers and rightly so. The point is, everything he says he backs up with a strong and logical argument. Many of these arguments I disagree with but I appreciate the thought and the process behind them. What I don't appreciate is the lack of reasoning behind some of the more modern techniques, including giving rulership of Scorpio to Pluto.
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if traditional astrolgoers take things as personally as moderns do? We have at least as much to gripe about with every modern astrologer prattling about how "benefic" and "malefic" are terrible terms to use.

This was done in fun. No one was ridiculed. If you want to see ridicule you should have seen the private e-mail I sent to a couple of modern astrologer friends on the same topic. They, however, responded in kind - with humor and not a little was at my expense to wit:


Quote:
Poor Pluto. Soooo misunderstood! HA! I still think they should demote Saturn! Think what will happen then? John Frawley will lead a mob!


For the record, I didn't take offense, and I'll bet Frawley would think it was funny, too.

Let's lighten up a bit. Life is too short to take everything so seriously.

Tom
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Sue



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Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've come to love Saturn. Without a strong Saturnian influence in my chart I do not think I would be alive today. And let's face it, Saturn types have the best sense of humour. Very Happy How about we downgrade Jupiter instead. After all it does think it is bigger and better than everyone else. Everyone seems to complain about having Saturn transits (hey Tom Smile ) but no one seems to complain about having Jupiter transits. Jupiter transits can make you fat among other things.

I agree that it should always be good natured ribbing. After all, we are all astrologers. Same thing happens in my department where the ancient historians (I am an ancient historian) and the modern historians like to pour scorn on each other's work. It is quite funny really. Further to the quote from Elwell above he says,

Quote:
Given that there can be only one astrology you would think that - considering the scepticism and scorn levelled against us- we should long ago have circled the wagons around a position we can all defend.


I'll second that.
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Tumbling Sphinx



Joined: 02 Jan 2005
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Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lol!!! Pluto does cop a hammering by Mars ... not all that surprising really that it comes in for another as Mars applies square.

Hmmm, the challenge of hammering a sphere into a square hole perhaps. And if it doesn't fit, either force it or eradicate it.

I wonder ... with Pluto having been attributed a feminine domain and by extension penetrating perceptions of feminine archetypal energy, just what overturning the original decision might manifest - which effectively would set it back 75 years, to the seeds of discontent leading into WWII.

The assignation of Pluto as a planet not the only decision emanating from around that period currently under the gun.

Also, considering the archetypal energy represented by Pluto, it may be that Mars is biting off far more than it can chew ... or that Pluto may be born again with a more refined definition of its position in the heavens.

Interesting that the two outers which were attributed feminine domains should regularly come in for criticism ... admittedly, the 3rd, Uranus being attributed Aquarius I find a bit odd, doesn't really seem to fit the fixed modality and if seen as counterpart to Saturn (diurnal rulership Aquarius) then Saturn's alternative cardinal domain would appear more appropriate. Unless the constant that's change can be regarded as fixed, I suppose.

And assignations can very much depend on the state of the Sun.

Quote:
"What should most deservedly be sneered at – Pluto, or some ‘meaningful’ position calculated from the Ascendant plus Moon minus Sun?"


Imo, neither ... but if such things do escalate to actions such as sneering then Venus is usually absent or has departed from the debate.

Will be interesting to see what's decided.
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Sue



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Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems that not only did Pluto retain its position as a planet but that the new definition of a planet has expanded to allow Ceres (the largest asteroid), Xena, and Charon (Pluto's largest moon) to now be counted. This gives us the twelve that we need to give a single rulership to each house. Apparently there are another twelve just waiting to be included. Naturally the astronomers are still arguing about this and I guess the astrologers will too. I wonder how long it will be before we see the new rulership system based on the new definitions. Smile At least Xena and Ceres will add to the poor showing of the female planets. I vote for Xena ruling Virgo.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/16/us/16pluto.html?th&emc=th
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Tumbling Sphinx



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Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Sue ... appears the proposal is still to be ratified with a new category of planets called plutons. This expansive subcategory taking it's lead from Pluto seems rather fitting for Jupiter in Scorpio-Pluto in Sagittarius.

How odd that a Moon should receive a planetary designation ... but I s'pose anything's possible following an Aquarian full moon!

I'd think Xena (still to be named, which is coming up soon I believe) will probably get Libra, with Ceres attributed Virgo if it's change in status counts.
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Sue



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Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does this mean I will have to remember a new mnemonic? I still remember learning the order of the planets at school by the mnemonic My Very Early Model Jeep Sometimes Uses Neptune Petrol.

Now that the order of the planets has beel listed as Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Ceres, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, Charon, Xena, it will be difficult to come up with something that will be that simple to remember.
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Tumbling Sphinx



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Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lol!!! How about...

My Very Early Model Cherokee Jeep Sometimes Uses Non Petroleum Choice X-elerants?

A model of the future perhaps ...
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prehaps gloating is premature, but I cannot help myself. Ahem, I wrote:

Quote:
But then, after a while some piece of space dust will determined to be in the same class as Pluto. Then some astrologer will demand equal status, perhaps even rulership of Taurus, Libra, Virgo, or Gemini.


And today - today, mind you on another unnamed astrology list I see this:

Quote:
I believe Ceres should rule Virgo/6th house

Posted by XXXXXXXXXXXX on Wednesday, 16 August 2006, at 1:21 p.m.

Ceres being classifed as a planet could help Astrology. I see Ceres as like a 2nd Moon because it is the asteroid of nurturing. Because of that,I would always believed that it was another indicator for mother just like Saturn is another indicator for father in Western Astrology. I believe that it should rule Virgo/6th house. Ceres relates to eating and food which is important for health. Without eating food,we would have serious health problems. Virgo/6th house relate to health. Virgo/6th house relate to service and work.I feel that nurturing is a kind of service. It's a way of helping yourself or others. Helping and work are often connected. Therefore, I feel that Virgo and Ceres share service in common. Virgo is an earth sign,and Ceres an earth mother. Ceres was Roman goddess of the harvest. According to Roman Mythology,without her things didn't grow and so Earth suffered.

These are the reasons that I feel Ceres should rule Virgo. I have Virgo Ascendant,and I feel that Ceres would fit as the ruler of my chart. I never believed that Chiron ruled Virgo nor was my chart ruler. I definitely feel that if Astrologers accept Ceres as a planet like astronomers might do,then it's possible that Ceres will get the respect that it lacked it lacked from astrologers who focused more on the minor planet,Chiron.

Of course,we have another female archetype to add to the list of Planets. I welcome Ceres with a warm hug just like the nurturer she is .


I didn't anticipate other objects being promoted, but if I had I would have altered my prognostication. Granted one post on an astrology list doesn't a movement make, but it didn't take long at all to trumpet the charge against the dignities.

Tom
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Sue



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Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You really know how to cheer a girl up, Tom. Smile Woke up feeling a bit grotty (have had bronchitis all week) but this has made me laugh. So much for it taking a week. You're right that one post does not a movement make but it was bound to start somewhere.

But I was suddenly struck down by a terrible thought. If we have three new planets doesn't that leave 13, with the Moon, that need rulerships and not 12? We can't just have a planet hanging about not ruling anything. So we really need to divide the chart by 13 and find another sign. Oh, but wait, it's okay. We have Ophiuchus, which this same body of astronomers decided to recognise as a constellation on the ecliptic around the same time Pluto was discovered. So maybe Charon could rule Ophiuchus.

And TS, yes, that mnemonic could work but we might have to keep in mind the other twelve heavenly bodies they are considering upgrading. Might make for a very long sentence.
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