Meeting A New Friend

1
All,

I met someone today while on tour who I thought would make a great friend. What was supposed to be a short meeting turned into an all day and evening with dinner. My question was is this going to be a good friendship or just a chance meeting, and what will the nature and spirit of the friendship be?

The date and time is June 3, at 10:12 PM EDT, in Falls Church, VA, 077?W10', 38?N53'. I get an ASC of 7 Capricorn, which makes me Saturn and the person I met Mars, as the 11th house ruler. There are two indications that this is a valid question and chart. The first is that the planetary hour matches the ASC, as the hour and ASC ruler are both Saturn. The other thing is that Mars describes the potential friend, as he's in the Army.

Mars is closing in on being conjunct Saturn, which is a good sign that this is a growing friendship. I remember that Lilly says that when two planets are conjunct the normal considerations of the destructive nature of malefic planets do not come into play.

I guess the headline of this chart is that this will be a real friendship and not just a chance meeting. But is there more information here than that? For example, what could our position in the 7th house mean?

I'm pretty tired, but I'll look at this more tomorrow or Monday. But in the mean time, does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Last edited by MarkF on Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mark F

2
I?m not sure about using the 11th house for the other person. If the question is whether he will be a new friend, then he can?t be categorized yet as a friend ? the relationship is as yet undefined. Since we are looking at one person, and at your relationship with that person, the 7th house would seem likely. That gives him the Moon as signifier. Mars in the 7th still describes his army connection.

Then we can look to the 11th to see if that person can be put in the house of friends. If we use the 7th to signify him we have Mars as ruler of the 11th in his house. I?m not able to say what that indicates, however.

I don?t see any aspects or reception contact between Saturn and the Moon.

The Moon separating from square Sun and opposed Uranus doesn?t look promising. The Moon is VOC if the outers aren?t considered.

3
Hi Mark,
I guess the headline of this chart is that this will be a real friendship and not just a chance meeting. But is there more information here than that? For example, what could our position in the 7th house mean?
Significators being in the 7th house may indicate that you are sharing something in common at the moment, maybe this is just the friendship itself. Since it is a beginning for a social relationship this position of the significators meaningfully describes the present situation.

Look to the 10th house (4th from the 7th) to see how it will proceed (end of the matter).

Regards,

Sigma

4
I feel completely comfortable in using the 11th house to indicate a potential friend.
I remember that Lilly says that when two planets are conjunct the normal considerations of the destructive nature of malefic planets do not come into play.
It was late at night when I wrote that and I got that somewhat wrong. The quote I was thinking of was from page 186 of Christian Astrology.
Consider likewise, whether the Significator of the Querent be in the house of the thing desired, or going to Conjunction of his Lord, this intimates the Querent is going to the thing quesited after; if the Significator of the thing demanded be found in the Ascendant, or hastening to the Conjunction of the Significator of the Querent, it imports the matter enquired of, or thing desired shall come to the Querent, receptions notwithstanding, the Moon and other aspects remaining in their proper being.
This comes from a great section where Lilly talks about how a lot of competing factors come together in judgments - malefic and benefic planets, dignity and different aspects. I think what he's saying about planets that are conjunct is that there doesn't have to be reception between them in order for there to be perfection of the matter. But he doesn't say that the essential dignity of the planets doesn't matter.

As far as this chart is concerned we have Saturn in it's detriment and that will show up in the events. But is this enough for it to destroy the friendship? I don't know. Since I am Saturn in this chart, I'd have to say that it's pretty descriptive of my situation in that I am a pretty lonely guy in the past year. I've grown past a lot of my old friends and have been really missing having a good friend. So Saturn in it's detriment is descriptive but is it also predictive, i.e, does it negate the friendship?

The other main point of the chart is the applying partile square between Saturn and Venus. Venus is very strong in her own sign and is angular. Venus rules both the 4th and 5th houses. I don't see any 4th house connections to this question, so maybe this points to the 5th house. So maybe that shows some fun and good times coming, but with difficulty as this is a square.

The role of the Moon puzzles me. It's relatively strong in its own triplicity but is in the 8th house. I guess that's descriptive as I am pretty much in the dumps, but then again I am most of the time. But it's void of course as far as the traditional planets are concerned. The Moon has just separated from a square with the Sun, which rules the 8th house. I guess this points to some loss and anxiety in the recent past. That's descriptive but like I said before, I seem to be pretty much always in that state so I don't know how much that adds to my knowledge. So to put it all together, I'd say that the Moon's relative strength in essential dignity, it being void of course and it's separating square with the 8th house ruler shows that the worst is over and that I'm entering into a time that may not be great, but at least isn't bad.

What about the other guy's life? If he's Mars at 0 Leo 11', he's just come out of a bad time as Mars in Cancer was in it's fall. I am curious about this. If I get to know him better I wonder if I'll find out what bad thing has he just passed?

I still can't get anything specific from the two significators being in the 7th house. The ruler of the 7th house is the Moon and it's in the 8th house. Yes, my mind has been on a troubled relationship that long time readers of this forum are all too aware of. So that might explain why my significator is in the 7th. The 8th house ruler is in the 6th house, the 7th house ruler is in the 8th separting from the 8th house ruler. Honest, the relationship has not been that bad lately. We had plans to do something this past Thursday that fell through. That has happened a lot in the past and in the past that has lead to a lof of fights. This time we avoided the fight, and he apologized to me and invited me on a three-day trip later in the month. Then he vanished and I didn't hear from him before he went out of town on Saturday. Actually, I thought that the apology was worth missing out on the planned evening out, because it's taken me four years to get him to apologize. So this is the separating square between the Sun and Moon. It seems worse in the chart than in life.

Any one have any thoughts?
Mark F

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This is from the beginning of the original post:
I met someone today while on tour who I thought would make a great friend. ...My question was is this going to be a good friendship or just a chance meeting, and what will the nature and spirit of the friendship be?
I still don?t see how the ruler of the 11th can be used to signify him. By using the ruler of the house of friends it seems that we have already put him in that group of people ? we don?t need to ask if he will be a friend because we have already called him one. Since we?re talking about one person and are inquiring into the role he will play in the querent?s life, I still want to use the 7th for him and then see if there is a link between him and the 11th in order to put him into the ?friends? category.

I?m not sure about this, but it?s the direction I?m inclined to take. I would appreciate any thoughts on why I might be wrong.

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Hi,

I have to agree with Kirk. Taking 11th as the house of a friend means that he IS a friend. I would rather take the 7th house (as the other person).

In the event that the 7th H ruler happens to be the same as the ruler of 11th, then voila! you have a friend! (of course this is only one way of looking at it). It is also the same if ruler of 5th H (11th of 7th, his friend) is the same ruler as the Asc ruler, you are his friend!.

I would also look into planets in the 7th. Mars represents the other person as well (located in the 7th). So, the other person is governed by Moon (ruler of 7th H) and Mars (located in 7th H). Moon-Mars would then describe the person (probably Moon's physical constitution with martian/martial background...). The fact that Mars (co-ruler of other person) is ALSO the ruler of 11th H, this makes him your friend (or you want him to be your friend).

The ruler of 7th H (moon) and the ruler of 1st H (Saturn) are not in reception with each other (mutual or any reception, Dorothean trip & Egyptian term). They are not in applying aspect. Moon is VOC. All of these points to ... (well, you know!).

There is an applying aspect between co-ruler of 7th (Mars) and ruler of 1st H (Saturn). Mars is in the face of Saturn (there is hope on the "face" of it) but also in Saturn's detriment. I would say that you might meet with him again (provided you are willing to put the effort - Saturn is in detriment) though the next meeting or gathering (conjunction) may not be as good as before (conjunction in Saturn's detriment).

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Astrojin -You were able to do much more with this than I possibly could have. In some areas I?m fairly advanced and in others I fall flat on my face. I?m still working through the basics in horary, and determining the correct house and significator is about as basic as it gets. I think it?s a good idea to work through these things. Wrong house and significator, wrong delineation.

I found possible support for our position on this web site?s page of 7th house rulerships. The first two sentences of the first section ?Main Rulerships? are:

?Marriage and all forms of partnerships. The spouse, lover and person enquired after.?

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/temples/h7.html

So, everyone, since no one has said otherwise, it looks like Astrojin and I are right. 8) It?s the ?person enquired after? that is of interest here. We are wanting information about that person. It isn?t a question about friends. We are enquiring after the person indicated by the 7th and seeing if that person can be placed in the querent?s house of friends... But now I?m just repeating myself.

8
What is the point of having houses if we are not going to use them to differentiate between the types of relationships enquired after? The seventh house is not used simply for any person enquired after. It is used for specific types of relationships such as romantic and business relationships. If Mark was asking whether this person is a potential lover he would use the seventh house regardless of whether they were currently lovers or not. In the same way, you would use the 11th house to enqire about a potential friendship, regardless of whether this person was currently a friend or not because the enquiry is about a friendship not any other sort of relationship.

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In the same way, you would use the 11th house to enqire about a potential friendship, regardless of whether this person was currently a friend or not because the enquiry is about a friendship not any other sort of relationship.
I can see that in the case of a question involving potential friendship such as ?Will I soon have a close friend?? We would then be looking for the potential of a new friend ? the 11th house. We are specifically asking about friends and friendship. We would be looking for someone who might enter into the querent?s life in the future in that capacity.

In this case the person has already entered into the querent?s life. We have someone to ask about, and in this case we are asking where to place the person. Ultimately, we aren?t asking about friends and friendship; we?re asking about the role a certain person will play in the querent?s life. I just don?t see how we can go off to the side with the 11th house when the querent has someone facing him directly and his question is where to place the person in his (the querent?s) life. Using the 7th house we have the querent on the left of the chart facing the quesited on the right of the chart and are asking if we can place that already existing person in the 11th house of friendship.

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Ultimately, we aren?t asking about friends and friendship; we?re asking about the role a certain person will play in the querent?s life.
This is Mark's original question:
My question was is this going to be a good friendship or just a chance meeting, and what will the nature and spirit of the friendship be?
The question was not where to place this person in Mark's life but specifically whether this will develop into a friendship. There was no mention of any other relationship. Now, Mark may well have it in his mind that there is a potential relationship here, in which case he would use the 7th house but it is up to Mark to determine the real nature of the question. To take him at his word, he asked specifically about a friendship and a question about a friendship belongs in the house of friendships, the 11th house. Maybe the significators in the 7th shows the potential for something different but the question is still about a friendship.

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The question was not where to place this person in Mark's life but specifically whether this will develop into a friendship. There was no mention of any other relationship.
Mark was asking if he could place the person in the life category of ?friends?. However, Mark?s focus is not on friends, but on this person. If Mark had asked about placing the person in ?enemies?, ?employers?, ?romance?, etc., he would still have that person before him as his focus. The fact that Mark could have asked about other capacities for the person shows that the focus is on the person rather than on any of the mentioned categories. [Edited to add:] So we take the 7th to signify the other person and look for links to the house we are interested in.

Think of the other person facing the querent (Mark) as an opponent of sorts ?7th house. The querent has this new ?opponent? in his life facing him and challenging him with the desire to know where to place him.

Hey, Sue! ?Thanks for making me think! You?ve got me working up a (figurative) sweat.

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I met someone today while on tour who I thought would make a great friend. What was supposed to be a short meeting turned into an all day and evening with dinner. My question was is this going to be a good friendship or just a chance meeting, and what will the nature and spirit of the friendship be?
There is nothing in Mark's question quoted above that indicates that anything other than the 11th house, the house of friends, should be used. Otherwise every person we come in contact with would be the 7th house until otherwise assigned at some indefinite date after some undefined incident, maybe. There is no traditional or even modern support for such an idea. The 7th may be used as a kind of catch all, if there is no other place in the chart to put them, but not in every case. If Mark accidentally and literally bumped into this person, they exchanged a couple of pleasantries and moved on, and then he asked the question, use of the 7th is probably defensible, but after hours of conversation, dinner, etc, this person is no longer "any old person."

If we argue that the person in the 7th ultimately becomes the 11th, then the querent is out of the picture. We need to look at receptions and aspects between lords 7 and 11 not 7 and 1 or 11 and 1. Mark asked if this person would become his friend; querent's friends are house 11.


Looked at yet another way the question is: Is there a friend in Mark's future? If we wanted to know if there was a lover, then we use 7. A boss, then we use 10, a friendship we use 11.

Change the situation. Let's say Mark is interviewing a person for a job, and spends a great deal of time with that person, would we use 7 because the person is not yet hired? If someone thinks that answer is "yes," then he or she is simply changing the rules to suit himself or herself.

Receptions can tell us whether or not the friendship will be lasting, fleeting, or even a mistake.

Tom