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Lilly's Considerations
compiled by D. Houlding
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Lord of Geniture in Your Chart?
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Which Planet is Lord of Your Chart?
Saturn
32%
 32% 
Jupiter
18%
 18% 
Mars
11%
 11% 
Sun
4%
 4% 
Venus
9%
 9% 
Mercury
13%
 13% 
Moon
9%
 9% 

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MarkLeoMoon



Joined: 28 Nov 2011
Posts: 7
Location: Florida, USA

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found that Saturn (Cap) in the 4th is my LoG.

Am finding the traditional approach to chart interpretation to be very interesting and fruitful.

So much history and evolution that can be studied in detail. Wish I had more time in the day.
Very Happy
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Tom
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Joined: 11 Oct 2003
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Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are charts where there is no really good choice for the Lord of the Geniture, but in that case we can default to the ruler of the ASC if it is no worse than anything else in the chart. What is the default option when there are two good choices? What might be an embarrassment of riches can actually be problematic when using the LoG to determine temperament or directing it for predictions.

Does anyone using this technique have a rule for this situation?
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Yuriy



Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 360

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
There are charts where there is no really good choice for the Lord of the Geniture, but in that case we can default to the ruler of the ASC if it is no worse than anything else in the chart. What is the default option when there are two good choices? What might be an embarrassment of riches can actually be problematic when using the LoG to determine temperament or directing it for predictions.

Does anyone using this technique have a rule for this situation?


As I've wrote above, I've strong Venus and Saturn and both are have strength at AC. While Venus in Taurus in 7th is Sun ruler in diurnal chart, its also ruling Libra AC. But Saturn in Aquarius in 4th getting more points (by Lilli's calculation) at AC, culminating in Libra and ruling triplicity. So, Saturn is almuten of AC.
I would give more chances to Saturn, because it aspecting AC with trine and in sect, while Venus not in sect and oriental, not aspecting AC.
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 393
Location: Ouro Preto, Brasil

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My case could be called curious.

I have 3 very strong planets by essential dignity:

Moon in exaltation, Mercury in Virgo, Jupiter in Sagitarius.

But in my opinion, my lord of geniture is Mars ^_^.

My Moon is in aversion to the risign sign, on the II house. Jupiter is in the 9th sign, in the VIII house, but on a degree distant from the ascending one.

Venus has a lot of dominion over planets in terms of the classical measuremente of the LoG, but Mars comes close and is the ruler of the ascendant. Saturn is effective in my chart indirectly only.

Theoretically, the least important/likely planet to produce an astrologer would be Mars. Yet, here I am.
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Tom
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Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose we need to define LoG and I forgot this thread originated 5 years ago. Lilly defines it, more or less, as the strongest planet in a chart by essential dignity that can act. That means it needs enough accidental dignity to put it in play. For example a planet in triplicity in the 10th might be preferable to a planet in domicile in the 12th. The idea is to pick a strong active planet.

I think Ibn Ezra uses the almutem as the LoG. Almutem is different in that a weak planet that has a great deal of dignity in the ASC degree could be chosen. That surely is indicative of something, but the LoG seems to be less about prediction than it is about potential. The best use of it is made when the native consciously tries to use it. I don't see the value in using a weak planet just because it has lots of dignity in the ASC. It's like hoping for the best results by putting your worst traits on display.

There is a good argument to be made that reversing your worst traits will lead to good things, but using your best traits seems a bit easier and smarter as it will come more naturally.
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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 1118
Location: California, USA

Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2011 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Theoretically, the least important/likely planet to produce an astrologer would be Mars. Yet, here I am.


Why do you think Mars would necessarily determine vocation, though? LOG is more likely to describe someone's personality and appearance/health/spirit, etc., right? A person's vocation and who they are as a person may be two different things.

In any case, I am also a Mars LOG. Mars in Aries in the 10th, swift, direct (although in a day chart). Mercury in early Taurus in the 11th, swift, direct is a close second, though. I am sure Mars characterizes me very well, and Lilly says it should three-fold, but I would say my other influences add a lot to who I am (Mars might describe my ability to endure hardships and rise above what I was born into, etc. but that is not all that I am).
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Dolly



Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 148

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Would someone kindly tell me the Lord of the Geniture in my chart please

Birth date 6 June 1950
Time 5:10 am
Oxford
UK

British summer time in operation minus 1 hour ascendant Gemini

Thanks
Dolly
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Konrad



Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 568

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say Jupiter in the 10th place, Dolly, since Venus is in aversion to the Asc and cadent.
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Dolly



Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 148

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2012 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Konrad

Thanks for your reply

Dolly
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 1731
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i still don't get the difference between log and almuten...

Last edited by james_m on Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
i still don't get the difference between log and almuten...


Hi sandstone,

Tom's earlier post pretty much covered your question.

Quote:
I suppose we need to define LoG .. Lilly defines it, more or less, as the strongest planet in a chart by essential dignity that can act. That means it needs enough accidental dignity to put it in play. For example a planet in triplicity in the 10th might be preferable to a planet in domicile in the 12th. The idea is to pick a strong active planet.

I think Ibn Ezra uses the almutem as the LoG. Almutem is different in that a weak planet that has a great deal of dignity in the ASC degree could be chosen. That surely is indicative of something, but the LoG seems to be less about prediction than it is about potential. The best use of it is made when the native consciously tries to use it. I don't see the value in using a weak planet just because it has lots of dignity in the ASC. It's like hoping for the best results by putting your worst traits on display.


A common way of assessing planetary strength by essential dignity is using the 5 traditional dignities-domcilie ruler, exaltation ruler, triplicity ruler, term/bound ruler and Face/ decan ruler. Every degree of the zodiac has an Almuten or planet with the most dignity in that degree of the chart. A common medieval pointing system was to assign domcile ruler (5 points), exaltation (4 points), triplicity (3 points), bound/term (2 points), face/decan (1 point).

As an example take someone with an Ascendant at 11 Taurus in a night chart. The Almuten is of that degree is the Moon as it it is the exaltation, triplicity and face ruler. It has 8 points versus the domicile ruler Venus obtaining only 5 points.

Here is an explanation of the difference between essential and accidental dignity:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dignities.html

Here is the commonly used dignity table derived from Ptolemy:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/essential_dignities.html

So the Almuten is quite simply the planet which is strongest by essential dignity in a chart. In some medieval systems the ruler of the nativity is derived that way.

The argument vs a purely Almuten based system is that it ignores the many factors that can prevent a planet expressing its strong essential dignity. For example a planet which is buried in the 12th house, retrograde, combust, out of sect, slow in motion, conjunct Saturn etc.

The Lord of the Geniture on the other hand usually uses many other criteria to assess the strength of a planet such as house placement, direct or retrograde motion, planetary speed, conjunction to malefics/benefics, solar phase, combustion, conjunction to nodes and important fixed stars.

Various systems were used to assess the LOG by essential and accidental dignity in the medieval and renaissance period. One of the most popular is by the 17th century astrologer William Lilly.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dig5.html#liltab

The objection to this kind of counting system is that we are comparing apples to pears a lot of the time. I personally shy away from such a reductionist approach but its maybe a matter of temperament. I supose it depends how much Virgo you have in your chart. Smile I tend to also factor in sect which Lilly's system omits.

Mark
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Tanit



Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 1118
Location: California, USA

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sandstone -

I would say your Venus would be LoG if it weren't for Algol. Venus is in house dignity, angular on the DSC, in sect, occidental, direct, although a tad slow. Average speed of Venus is 1°12' and yours is 1°03. Your Sun is a good candidate, but it's out of sect. It's swift, in the 5th and in exaltation, but I'd vote for Mars. It's swift, oriental, in sect (although halb), in exaltation, face and term, and in the 2nd (tied with Sun there anyway). So Mars is my vote. I didn't use a computer program or anything - just in my head - so I could be wrong.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks mark.. on the basis of what i read, i am going to go with mars as my log then.. mars also happens to be my almuten..

edit - hey thanks for your take on my chart tanit! i go with a type of whole sign which might make it all different too.. i think the lilly thing was done with hard edges on the houses...

tanit - depends on house systems, it seems to me.. i have mars in the 3rd by the system i use.. sun in 6th.. i know it is crazy, but i am trying it on for size at present..


Last edited by james_m on Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:26 am; edited 2 times in total
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must say Sandstone has an embarrassment of available choices here. Very Happy

What about charts with no dignified planets or even debilitated planets but strong by accidental dignity. Can they be LOG? Some traditional authorities said yes.

Here are an interesting couple of articles discussing the practical application of the method of the German astrologer Johannes Schöner (1477- 1547)

http://altairastrology.wordpress.com/2008/04/10/looking-for-the-lord-of-the-geniture/

http://altairastrology.wordpress.com/2008/04/13/ernest-hemingways-lord-of-the-geniture-or-the-old-man-and-the-sea/

Plus here is an article from our very own Tom looking at the chart of General Patton which presents similar difficulties in terms of lack of planets with essential dignity:

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/patton.html

Mark
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also found this article by Robert Hand which compares the dignity scoring systems of several medieval astrologers. Nice to see where they agree and differ with the commonly used system of Lilly.

http://www.arhatmedia.com/alldign.htm

Mark
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