I would like to understand where I made a mistake as I couldn't correctly predict the outcome of the following horary question:

Will I be admitted to the G high IQ society before the end of 2005?

Background info: The querent had submitted his solutions to an untimed IQ test with the intent of receiving admission to a high IQ society. The querent had received a good enough score based on the preliminary norming, but it was not officially accepted yet to be admitted to the society.Because the test in question was not yet normed as there wasn't enough submissions then. Hence the querent was wondering if it would be possible for him to be admitted which could only be possible if enough number of submissions to the test were received by the society administrator by the end of the year (2005) so that they were normed and his score was still high enough for admission.

Date, place and hour of the query: June 3, 2005/30e32 39n46/09:22 UT

Virgo rises, so the native (querent) is represented by the Mercury. Query is about the 11th house as admission to "a society" is asked. Therefore Moon, the ruler of the 11th house signifies the society.

The query is interesting as there is a perfect cazimi in gemini in the 10th house. This I think showed the querent was really meeting the intellectual requirements (IQ above 'one in a thousand of unselected adult population' level) of the society, so this indicated that he posessed the potential. On the other hand there was no ptolemaic aspect in application, nor a strong mutual reception between the two significators Moon and Mercury. The only possibility was that the Moon would conjoin Mercury for a positive outcome. But since there was a cazimi, conjoining mercury meant also cumbustion, which was to be avoided.

Therefore, I judged that the querent would not be admitted before the end of the year.

However, he was notified of admission on December 24, 2005 (exactly one week before the deadline) to much his surprise!

So my prediction was wrong.

And I wonder where I made a mistake. What makes the outcome positive for this horary?

Thanks in advance for the inputs.

Sigma

The question as stated is:

Will I be admitted to the G high IQ society before the end of 2005?

To my way of thinking we have Mercury (querent) conjunct (cazimi) the Sun (honors) in the 10th house (honors). The answer it seems to me is "Yes, you will be admited before the end of the year."

You also stated the score was high enough but needed to be normed, so we were talking about a more or less accomplished fact. If the querent had asked "Will I be admitted and if so when?" then we would have to look for an applying aspect, but that wasn't the question. The question could be answered a simple yes, and it would have proved to be true.

The idea of the 11th house signifying "groups" is a modern one, but I can understand it. To me, however, the querent was seeking an honor, and he received it within the time frame specified by the question.


Tom

Hi Tom,

Thank you so much for the insightful comment.

Tom:

To my way of thinking we have Mercury (querent) conjunct (cazimi) the Sun (honors) in the 10th house (honors). The answer it seems to me is "Yes, you will be admited before the end of the year."

But don't you also think that "before the end of the year" specifies a time frame, thus involves a time element, invoking to seek an applying aspect?

Maybe this was the thing that confused me. So now I understand that we shouldn't always be looking for an applying aspect to judge a horary.

You also stated the score was high enough but needed to be normed, so we were talking about a more or less accomplished fact.

Yes, but this was the exact reason on which the query was based. Because the score was not to be regarded official until verified by official norming.In other words, the raw score that was considered sufficiently high based on preliminary norming could well have been below the acceptable limits of the society in the end, hence the reason behind the query: The querent wanted to be sure;

- if he would be allowed in in the end, and
- if this would happen before the end of the year 2005

Sigma

HI,

Let me clarify. Some might think this is nitpicking, but I think the chart validates it. The question was: Will I be accepted before the end of the year? What is implied but not stated is: yes or no? There is very little wiggle room here. The question is not: "When will I be accepted? Or even "Will I be accepted and if so when?" In short it is a yes or no question and therefore gets a yes or no answer. Your answer was "no." Not knowing the outcome I would have had a bit of a difficult time with this, but due to the exceptionally powerful position of Mercury and the conjunction with the Sun in 10, I think "yes, " is appropriate.

So now I understand that we shouldn't always be looking for an applying aspect to judge a horary.

Mutual receptions will often provide an adequate substitute for aspects. Also look for translation of light.

Incidentally, Cazimi is cazimi; combust is combust. An applying aspect to the position of Mercury, if a conjunction, would be cazimi in this case, not combust.

While I suppose it was possible he would not be admitted, however, his score was so high, this almost sounds like the question could have been: "When will I get the announcement?" That changes significators. But again, that isn't what was asked.

Finally it isn't clear to me just why you said he wouldn't hear in less than six months, but you were only off by a week. Most of us would be very happy with that.

Best

Tom

Let me clarify. Some might think this is nitpicking, but I think the chart validates it. The question was: Will I be accepted before the end of the year? What is implied but not stated is: yes or no? There is very little wiggle room here.

Agreed! At the core of the question lies yes/no and reference to a time frame is not essential for this case.

Incidentally, Cazimi is cazimi; combust is combust. An applying aspect to the position of Mercury, if a conjunction, would be cazimi in this case, not combust.

If I am not wrong cazimi is when a planet is conjunct sun within 17 minutes of arc. However when I look at the chart from a dynamical perspective, that is, when I animate the chart I see that the Moon, significator of the society, joins the sun when she is at 16.16 gemini before perfecting a conjunction with the Mercury, the querent's significator. This, according to horary rules should be considered a prohibition which is normally supposed to yield a 'No' answer. Here moon actually becomes combust before making a cazimi.

So I tend to rest my case and still don't understand, given the definition of combustion and prohibition, why Sun here is not regarded a prohibiting effect.

Off the topic, another point I am interested in is your saying in your previous post that the 11th house=groups is a modern association. Which house do you think should instead have been selected for the 'group' if we were to refer strictly to the traditional house meanings? Initially I thought that a high IQ internet society was a group of friends and since friends are an 11th house matter, hence the IQ society consisting of high IQ individiuals.

Finally it isn't clear to me just why you said he wouldn't hear in less than six months, but you were only off by a week. Most of us would be very happy with that.

You are entirely right in thinking that way and I agree with you if we consider time only. But I myself rather focused on the outcome, not on the time discrepancy of the prediction. Seen this way, there is a hell lot of difference between a Yes and a No answer. Maybe it is me who is nitpicky:)

All the best

Sigma

After posting the previous message I thought over the horary again and I think I have found a simple and alternative answer to my questions.

Well, I thought my initial understanding was quite literal. Now trying to grasp the real intent of the question I can rephrase it but only by breaking it down to two different queries as follows:

Original query: Will I be admitted to G high IQ society before the end of 2005?

This can be rephrased as:

a) Will I *succeed* in, or have the honor of getting admission to the high IQ society?

Because, yes you were right assuming that the querent's intent was to know this. So the quesited shifts from the 11th house to the 10th as the 10th house signifies honor and success.

Now everything gets much simpler this way. Answer is clear. Significator of the 10th house is mercury, being also the querent's significator. Mercury's being posited in the 10th with a powerful dignity of domicile rulership gives a clear yes. This is further fortified by its being cazimi with sun, the natural significator of success and honor.

b) Inherent to the original query was also an implied question about timing. If ever admitted to the society, whether this would happen before a specified deadline (i.e before the end of the year 2005). The querent not only wants to know whether he will succeed in getting the admission, but also wants to know if this admission will happen before the end of the year. In other words, he wants to know whether he will be *notified* of admission before the deadline.

Having said this, since notification is a 3rd house matter we can look to it to seek an answer. Note that this is still a "yes or no" type of question.

3rd house is ruled by mars by Regiomontanus system.
There are two ways to get a positive answer. Either we look to the application of mercury (querent) to mars (notification), or if this fails take the co-significator moon's applying aspect to mars.

Both works!

Mercury goes to perfect a square to mars. Since mercury is very strong this helps overcoming the application by square.

Moon, already being in her exaltation in Taurus, goes to perfect a sextile with mars.

I hope I haven't stretched the matter too much.

Any comments?

Sigma

If I am not wrong cazimi is when a planet is conjunct sun within 17 minutes of arc. However when I look at the chart from a dynamical perspective, that is, when I animate the chart I see that the Moon, significator of the society, joins the sun when she is at 16.16 gemini before perfecting a conjunction with the Mercury, the querent's significator.

You're right. I misunderstood you.

So I tend to rest my case and still don't understand, given the definition of combustion and prohibition, why Sun here is not regarded a prohibiting effect.

I think you're still looking for the applying aspect. My point is that, given the nature of the question, that application isn't necessary. The Sun, means "honors (and something else, see below)." The querent will be so honored as he is in the house of honors with the planet of honors, therefore he is honored in the way inquired about.

Off the topic, another point I am interested in is your saying in your previous post that the 11th house=groups is a modern association. Which house do you think should instead have been selected for the 'group' if we were to refer strictly to the traditional house meanings? Initially I thought that a high IQ internet society was a group of friends and since friends are an 11th house matter, hence the IQ society consisting of high IQ individiuals.

The 11th house association iwth "groups" is siimply an extension of the meaning of friends into groups of friends or collection of like minded people. I'm not sure what house would be used for groups in the traditional sense, and I'm not sure one is necessary. I checked Lee Lehman's The Book of Rulerships under "groups," "organizations", and "clubs," and came up empty. This is what got me thinking in another direction. Today, I also checked "societies" and Lehman notes that Al biruni gives as significator: the Sun. Worked out kind of neat, no?

All the best

Tom

Hi Tom,

I wonder if you have also read my last post just before yours.
I approached the horary from a different perspective there.

Today, I also checked "societies" and Lehman notes that Al biruni gives as significator: the Sun. Worked out kind of neat, no?

Yes indeed.

Greetings,

Sigma

I wonder if you have also read my last post just before yours.
I approached the horary from a different perspective there.

Actually I hadn't. I had to go to the doctor, so I only read the first post and didn't get to the second until now.

I think this has been an interesting exercise demonstrating both the necessity of pinning down the querent to fully understand the question, and ultimately the validity of horary. In some charts there is more than one way of getting at the truth and this is one of them.

John Frawley tells his students to grill the querent mercilessly. This isn't done to be rude or offer the astrologer a way out, rather it is the opposite. The idea is to be certain that both parties completely understand the question. This does not imply that the querent is necessarily disingenuous or confused. We need the clarity. I write things all the time that are perfectly clear to me, but that readers take in entirely other ways. This is my fault, not the reader's.

One other minor point. The idea of the 10th house and honors and/or the Sun and honors is one that Morinus drives at constantly in all the works of his that I've read. That's why it came to me. That idea didn't originate with him, of course, but it was his insistence on looking at the Sun and the 10th that way that caused that avenue to pop into my head. I don't even think he liked horary

Good job.

Tom

Tom,

[/quote]I had to go to the doctor[quote]

I hope you're well.

Thank you again for this good correspondence.

Bye,

Sigma

Tom,

>I had to go to the doctor<

I hope you're well.

It's nothing. Thank you for your concern. I have a chronic sinus condition and my regular doctor gave up and sent me to an ear nose and throat specialist. This is a good story and has nothing to do with the topic. My doctor recommended this specialist and so did my neighbor who is an eye doctor and she knows everyone in the medical profession that is local. So with two recommendations in hand I made an appointment.

Now get this. I'm led into a room and told to wait for the doctor. The room has all the usual medical paraphenalia, but it did strike me as odd that he kept his instruments in one of those rolling toolboxes that auto repairmen use. If I imagined the metal oxygen bottle as the kind used for welding, I could have easily imagined myself in an auto body shop.

There is nothing wrong with putting one's insturments in a rolling toolbox, but with the brand "Craftsman" emblazoned on the chest, it did seem out of place. I didn't look inside for fear I'd find a ratchet set or a crescent wrench the size of a baseball bat inside.

Tom

Hi,

This was a fascinating chart with Mercury exactly cazimi. Couldn't be more appropriate.
Tom and you made some very good points about this chart, but the timing factor seemed to be a problem.

Mercury goes to perfect a square to mars. Since mercury is very strong this helps overcoming the application by square.

Moon, already being in her exaltation in Taurus, goes to perfect a sextile with mars.

Looking at this question as a 3rd house matter could be appropriate and the aspects seem to support it, but I can't see how you get the timing that way.

If you,however, use the 11th house for the society (or was this out of the question?), you can see that Mercury is already in the 11th house through its antiscium. This tells the same story as Mercury cazimi the Sun - Mercury already achieved the honors as Tom pointed out and has been accepted to the society.

I still think that one should be able to figure out the time frame though, as this was specifically asked.
Now if we take the date the question was asked we notice that there is 6 months and 3 weeks to Dec 24th, or 29 weeks. If we add 29 degrees to Mercury we find that it is then conjunct the 11th house cusp.

Could this be the answer to the timing?

ea