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I saw that some authors when explain chart use rulers for proper houses and some sometimes use almutens. Is there any rule when we have to use ruler and when insted of ruler we have to use almuten?

None that I'm aware of. Dorian Greenbaum uses the almuten in her system of determining temperament. I've seen suggestions that, in horary it might be useful if the house ruler in question is busy elsewhere in the chart and a substitute is needed, but I've never seen that in practice. Robert Zoller may use it in pracice as well, but for the most part, most astrologers pay little attention to it.

Tom

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Hi,

I haven't read that book. Lehman knows her stuff, so I wouldn't discount what she says. I wonder though, if she prefers the alumten if it better describes the quesited? Just curious.

Tom

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Hi fensi,

I don't think there are specific rules to choose almuten over ruler of a house in horary (or even natal chart for that matter).

I would prefer the almuten or ruler that describes the matter/querent/quesited best for those cases where almuten differs from the rulers. This (of course) complicates matters due to the following:-

1. The house system used as this affects the ruler and hence almuten determination
2. The triplicty rulerships used (Dorotheus, Ptolemy, Lilly) as this affects the almuten determination
3. The terms used (Ptolemy, Egyptian).


If the almuten is different than the ruler of the house, I would take whichever planet that best represent the matter/querent/quesited (while always giving priority to the ruler). But there wll be circumstances where the chart is trying to communicate something else to us. Maybe the different planets as ruler and almuten is a sign that more are involved in this matter...

An example:-

The cusp of the seventh house (it was a relationship question) is in a certain degree in Libra. The ruler is of course Venus and the Almuten happened to be Saturn. In that question I took Saturn as the significator because the querent desribed the person as older male...
If I was not sure, I would simply take Venus as she is the ruler of 7th.

If more parties are involved, the different planets representing ruler and almuten become handy for differentiating the different parties.

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I would prefer the almuten or ruler that describes the matter/querent/quesited best for those cases where almuten differs from the rulers. This (of course) complicates matters due to the following:-

1. The house system used as this affects the ruler and hence almuten determination
2. The triplicty rulerships used (Dorotheus, Ptolemy, Lilly) as this affects the almuten determination
3. The terms used (Ptolemy, Egyptian).
Absolutely! Thanks for you remaind me of this I miss all these things, so for me now it is easier to stick to rulers!
Greetings,
Goca
http://www.geocities.com/astrosport88/engleski.html

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I've posted a chart,

https://sites.google.com/site/astrochip ... n-or-ruler

The querent in the following relationship chart is trying to determine whether a young woman's current relationship with the other man will fail. The kicker to the question: if it does fail, will she pursue a partnership with the querent.

Normally, the querent = Venus, and the quesited = Mars, but in each case, the Almuten's are stronger: querent = Saturn and quesited = Sun

astrojin,
I would prefer the almuten or ruler that describes the matter/querent/quesited
1. either significator in this case describes the matter:

a. Venus - the (desired) relationship
b. Saturn - the (hoped for) separation

2. either significator describes the querent:

a. Venus - effeminate in stature
b. Saturn - Lord of the querent's Geniture, older and father-like towards the quesited

3. either significator can describe the quesited

4. Saturn is commonly assigned to the 3rd-party; in this case, which also fits - the quesited is supposedly in a relationship with an older man/benefactor than the querent

5. the Moon separated from Venus (co-sig of the querent as per Dariot) and applies to Jupiter in detriment (co-sig of the quesited)

6. Venus also applies to Jupiter

7. the querent knows the quesited is materialistic (which fits, Mars in the 2nd) and would need to provide this gain

8. Most reception involve the quesited's Almuten, the Sun with Lord 1 or its dispositor, Mercury (unclaimed Sun customarily belongs to the male querent)

9. Saturn is in domicile detriment to Venus; which I'm certain the querent would like to see

So, which planet is the primary significator of the querent, quesited, and other man ?

a. Venus, Mars, Saturn
b. Saturn, Sun, Mercury
c. none of the above

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Chip wrote:
The querent in the following relationship chart is trying to determine whether a young woman's current relationship with the other man will fail. The kicker to the question: if it does fail, will she pursue a partnership with the querent.
Nice thread.

I am unclear on the relationship of the "young woman" to the querent. She sounds like a friend here...?

And how is failure to be signified here? Lee Lehman in her book cited above describes the perils of the double negative in horary questions (page 189). As might be expected of someone with "everything in Virgo", Lee has a mind like a steel trap and her impregnable logic runs as follows: We are actually looking for a positive "yes" answer to a negative question, "will a relationship fail?" So this positive answer will be reflected in a positive perfection or coming together of the two significators. This is perverse and counter-intuitive, but - as Lee says - you have to answer the question as it is given....

Geoffrey

Re: Ruler or almuten?

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fensi88 wrote:I saw that some authors when explain chart use rulers for proper houses and some sometimes use almutens. Is there any rule when we have to use ruler and when insted of ruler we have to use almuten?
There are examples of it in the Book of the Nine Judges, if I understood it right, though I cannot remember which authors in particular use it, perhaps Umar Al Tabiri.

He uses it if for example the ruler of the ascendant cannot see the ascendant.

Re: Ruler or almuten?

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Wish I had the means to get that book right now. The use of almutens in Medieval Astrology seems excessive and, frankly, not thought through very well. Say one was looking at relationships in Nativities. The idea of taking the almuten over different significators and, perhaps arriving at a planet that bears no relation to the places dealing with Relations (7th house,Lot of Marriage,venus etc.) doesent make sense. I like Umar but I am also a very Pragmatic person. That some astrologer propagated a method, no matter how old or important he may be does not mean it works well or is right.

I personally think the use of such methods such as the almuten became excessive when astrology carried over into Medieval times as there is very little sign of its use in this degree in Hellenistic astrology. Why should the almuten be considered superior to the ruler of the HOUSE/DOMICILE/OIKOS of the relavant place? And yes Paul I know, because its useful if the asc. ruler is in aversion etc. so that it cant fully fulfill its functions, I read Masha'allah too. But this is purely Abstract; the ruler of the Domicle should always be the 1st looked to. Its due to this reason that I feel the ruler of the asc. or some other sign on the house should be considered always. The whole add em up approach is more concerned with quantity and not quality. Each dignity is important in its own way and this concept was lost with astrologys transition into the middle ages.

From my reading of The Search of the Heart it seems the almuten seems to carry more weight as giving scope to the situation of the querent, as far as Divining the thoughts go. But even this does not seem quite correct. By looking at EACH of the ruler of the dignities--these rulers-- can flesh out the chart and add context. The rulers of the Egyptian Term and of the face of the asc. ALWAYs show the relavant houses to the question. The planet exalted in the asc. frequently adds context as well. The method in The Search of the Heart (it doesent work) being the use of the Hyleg to detemine the thought, is the only one the makes sense to me conceptually. The difference here is that one looks to the victor among PLACEs. But the victor over one SINGLE place sacrifices finesse; among places it would be reasonable and expected.

The triplicity rulers dont seem relavant here, and I believe that this is because they refer to OTHER things and people, of the relavant house. In fact I have severe doubts of factoring in the triplicity for the almuten at all.

If one had to find another significator for a house the triplicity rulers would seem like the obvious choice to me. Bonatti was right about this and is defended by its use in in practice. So use the ruler of the house always. If you need to find another ruler for that house use the Primary triplicity ruler. If that is in use, then use one of the others. Failing this see if some Natural ruler is making itself known. Let the chart guide you.
Last edited by Ignis on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:24 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Chip wrote:I've posted a chart,

https://sites.google.com/site/astrochip ... n-or-ruler

The querent in the following relationship chart is trying to determine whether a young woman's current relationship with the other man will fail. The kicker to the question: if it does fail, will she pursue a partnership with the querent.

Normally, the querent = Venus, and the quesited = Mars, but in each case, the Almuten's are stronger: querent = Saturn and quesited = Sun

astrojin,
I would prefer the almuten or ruler that describes the matter/querent/quesited
1. either significator in this case describes the matter:

a. Venus - the (desired) relationship
b. Saturn - the (hoped for) separation

2. either significator describes the querent:

a. Venus - effeminate in stature
b. Saturn - Lord of the querent's Geniture, older and father-like towards the quesited

3. either significator can describe the quesited

4. Saturn is commonly assigned to the 3rd-party; in this case, which also fits - the quesited is supposedly in a relationship with an older man/benefactor than the querent

5. the Moon separated from Venus (co-sig of the querent as per Dariot) and applies to Jupiter in detriment (co-sig of the quesited)

6. Venus also applies to Jupiter

7. the querent knows the quesited is materialistic (which fits, Mars in the 2nd) and would need to provide this gain

8. Most reception involve the quesited's Almuten, the Sun with Lord 1 or its dispositor, Mercury (unclaimed Sun customarily belongs to the male querent)

9. Saturn is in domicile detriment to Venus; which I'm certain the querent would like to see

So, which planet is the primary significator of the querent, quesited, and other man ?

a. Venus, Mars, Saturn
b. Saturn, Sun, Mercury
c. none of the above
I would look at Saturn being more the exaltation of the asc, rather then the almuten. He is also in the 1st, ruler of the 5th. More importantly Saturn is the primary triplicty ruler of the 1st so the querent is signified by Libra and is involved in the question, see venus in the 11th whole sign?. The question is about being impeded from romancing a person because they are already involved in a relationship so this would fit. Saturn is also the face ruler of the asc. The ruler of the Egyptian term is mercury. From the perspective of whole signs mercury is in the 1st house. Ruling the 12th in the 1st would fit condering the conniving nature to the query no? Mercury also rules the turned 3rd, is the querent currently in communication with this guy?

I personally believe the 2nd shows the querents self esteem and this view is mirrored in Vedic. Mars in the 2nd would make sense as the querent obviously holds this guy in high esteem and relations freqently have a bearing on esteem.

The 9nth part of the asc. is useful and here it is Aquarius. Hephaistio has this to say: "Ones business or failure,or the anticipatation of hopes", The Search of the Heart', Translated by Ben Dykes.

So with the 5th place being the 9th part and signifying romance one could set this as the basic theme. Saturn being the face, and also the exalted ruler attests its impotance in this chart. Saturn rules the 5th and is the triplicity ruler of the 1st showing the other person. The moons last seperation was with venus ruler of the 1st showing the querents attention on herself, and the 8th. The 8th could signify the esteem of the party desired. Mercury (as said) in the 1st Whole sign seems to better fit the context of the question then putting so much importance on the 12th cusp.

I dont agree with Lehman. If the relationship were to be broke off then an opposition would show this, not a sextile or trine. This defies reason.

If Saturn was used to signify the woman in the relationship with this guy then him and mars are in aversion. No aspect no action...they will not break it off. Venus is applying to mars by contra antiscion and venus applys by square to mars, so it seems the querents selfishness will soon be her undoing.