skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
A Correct Prediction: the NYC buiding strike, 1991
by Robert E. Zoller
Book II of Carmen Astrologicum by Dorotheus
translated by David Pingree
Compiled by Deborah Houlding
Astrology and Cosmology in Early China: Conforming Earth to Heaven, by David W. Pankenier
Reviewed by Gill Zukovskis

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Ruler or almuten?
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Horary & Electional Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
fensi88



Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 69
Location: beograd

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 6:04 am    Post subject: Ruler or almuten? Reply with quote

I saw that some authors when explain chart use rulers for proper houses and some sometimes use almutens. Is there any rule when we have to use ruler and when insted of ruler we have to use almuten?
_________________
Greetings,
Goca
http://www.geocities.com/astrosport88/engleski.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3127
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I saw that some authors when explain chart use rulers for proper houses and some sometimes use almutens. Is there any rule when we have to use ruler and when insted of ruler we have to use almuten?



None that I'm aware of. Dorian Greenbaum uses the almuten in her system of determining temperament. I've seen suggestions that, in horary it might be useful if the house ruler in question is busy elsewhere in the chart and a substitute is needed, but I've never seen that in practice. Robert Zoller may use it in pracice as well, but for the most part, most astrologers pay little attention to it.

Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
fensi88



Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 69
Location: beograd

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom, thanks for your quick reply. I thought the same, but Lee Lehman in her book "The Martial art ..." very often chouse almuten as significator for some house if she "likes" it. For example, if almuten is stronger then ruler she use almuten.
_________________
Greetings,
Goca
http://www.geocities.com/astrosport88/engleski.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tom
Moderator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 3127
Location: New Jersey, USA

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

I haven't read that book. Lehman knows her stuff, so I wouldn't discount what she says. I wonder though, if she prefers the alumten if it better describes the quesited? Just curious.

Tom
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
fensi88



Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 69
Location: beograd

Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, she prefers.
_________________
Greetings,
Goca
http://www.geocities.com/astrosport88/engleski.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
astrojin



Joined: 15 Nov 2005
Posts: 447

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi fensi,

I don't think there are specific rules to choose almuten over ruler of a house in horary (or even natal chart for that matter).

I would prefer the almuten or ruler that describes the matter/querent/quesited best for those cases where almuten differs from the rulers. This (of course) complicates matters due to the following:-

1. The house system used as this affects the ruler and hence almuten determination
2. The triplicty rulerships used (Dorotheus, Ptolemy, Lilly) as this affects the almuten determination
3. The terms used (Ptolemy, Egyptian).


If the almuten is different than the ruler of the house, I would take whichever planet that best represent the matter/querent/quesited (while always giving priority to the ruler). But there wll be circumstances where the chart is trying to communicate something else to us. Maybe the different planets as ruler and almuten is a sign that more are involved in this matter...

An example:-

The cusp of the seventh house (it was a relationship question) is in a certain degree in Libra. The ruler is of course Venus and the Almuten happened to be Saturn. In that question I took Saturn as the significator because the querent desribed the person as older male...
If I was not sure, I would simply take Venus as she is the ruler of 7th.

If more parties are involved, the different planets representing ruler and almuten become handy for differentiating the different parties.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fensi88



Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 69
Location: beograd

Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I would prefer the almuten or ruler that describes the matter/querent/quesited best for those cases where almuten differs from the rulers. This (of course) complicates matters due to the following:-

1. The house system used as this affects the ruler and hence almuten determination
2. The triplicty rulerships used (Dorotheus, Ptolemy, Lilly) as this affects the almuten determination
3. The terms used (Ptolemy, Egyptian).

Absolutely! Thanks for you remaind me of this I miss all these things, so for me now it is easier to stick to rulers!
_________________
Greetings,
Goca
http://www.geocities.com/astrosport88/engleski.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Chip



Joined: 11 Nov 2010
Posts: 7

Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've posted a chart,

https://sites.google.com/site/astrochip/almuten-or-ruler

The querent in the following relationship chart is trying to determine whether a young woman's current relationship with the other man will fail. The kicker to the question: if it does fail, will she pursue a partnership with the querent.

Normally, the querent = Venus, and the quesited = Mars, but in each case, the Almuten's are stronger: querent = Saturn and quesited = Sun

astrojin,

Quote:
I would prefer the almuten or ruler that describes the matter/querent/quesited


1. either significator in this case describes the matter:

a. Venus - the (desired) relationship
b. Saturn - the (hoped for) separation

2. either significator describes the querent:

a. Venus - effeminate in stature
b. Saturn - Lord of the querent's Geniture, older and father-like towards the quesited

3. either significator can describe the quesited

4. Saturn is commonly assigned to the 3rd-party; in this case, which also fits - the quesited is supposedly in a relationship with an older man/benefactor than the querent

5. the Moon separated from Venus (co-sig of the querent as per Dariot) and applies to Jupiter in detriment (co-sig of the quesited)

6. Venus also applies to Jupiter

7. the querent knows the quesited is materialistic (which fits, Mars in the 2nd) and would need to provide this gain

8. Most reception involve the quesited's Almuten, the Sun with Lord 1 or its dispositor, Mercury (unclaimed Sun customarily belongs to the male querent)

9. Saturn is in domicile detriment to Venus; which I'm certain the querent would like to see

So, which planet is the primary significator of the querent, quesited, and other man ?

a. Venus, Mars, Saturn
b. Saturn, Sun, Mercury
c. none of the above
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Geoffrey



Joined: 09 Jul 2012
Posts: 343
Location: Scottish Borders

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chip wrote:


The querent in the following relationship chart is trying to determine whether a young woman's current relationship with the other man will fail. The kicker to the question: if it does fail, will she pursue a partnership with the querent.


Nice thread.

I am unclear on the relationship of the "young woman" to the querent. She sounds like a friend here...?

And how is failure to be signified here? Lee Lehman in her book cited above describes the perils of the double negative in horary questions (page 189). As might be expected of someone with "everything in Virgo", Lee has a mind like a steel trap and her impregnable logic runs as follows: We are actually looking for a positive "yes" answer to a negative question, "will a relationship fail?" So this positive answer will be reflected in a positive perfection or coming together of the two significators. This is perverse and counter-intuitive, but - as Lee says - you have to answer the question as it is given....

Geoffrey
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paul
Moderator


Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 997

Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 8:04 am    Post subject: Re: Ruler or almuten? Reply with quote

fensi88 wrote:
I saw that some authors when explain chart use rulers for proper houses and some sometimes use almutens. Is there any rule when we have to use ruler and when insted of ruler we have to use almuten?


There are examples of it in the Book of the Nine Judges, if I understood it right, though I cannot remember which authors in particular use it, perhaps Umar Al Tabiri.

He uses it if for example the ruler of the ascendant cannot see the ascendant.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tyler



Joined: 01 Jan 2013
Posts: 37
Location: USA

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:16 am    Post subject: Re: Ruler or almuten? Reply with quote

Wish I had the means to get that book right now. The use of almutens in Medieval Astrology seems excessive and, frankly, not thought through very well. Say one was looking at relationships in Nativities. The idea of taking the almuten over different significators and, perhaps arriving at a planet that bears no relation to the places dealing with Relations (7th house,Lot of Marriage,venus etc.) doesent make sense. I like Umar but I am also a very Pragmatic person. That some astrologer propagated a method, no matter how old or important he may be does not mean it works well or is right.

I personally think the use of such methods such as the almuten became excessive when astrology carried over into Medieval times as there is very little sign of its use in this degree in Hellenistic astrology. Why should the almuten be considered superior to the ruler of the HOUSE/DOMICILE/OIKOS of the relavant place? And yes Paul I know, because its useful if the asc. ruler is in aversion etc. so that it cant fully fulfill its functions, I read Masha'allah too. But this is purely Abstract; the ruler of the Domicle should always be the 1st looked to. Its due to this reason that I feel the ruler of the asc. or some other sign on the house should be considered always. The whole add em up approach is more concerned with quantity and not quality. Each dignity is important in its own way and this concept was lost with astrologys transition into the middle ages.

From my reading of The Search of the Heart it seems the almuten seems to carry more weight as giving scope to the situation of the querent, as far as Divining the thoughts go. But even this does not seem quite correct. By looking at EACH of the ruler of the dignities--these rulers-- can flesh out the chart and add context. The rulers of the Egyptian Term and of the face of the asc. ALWAYs show the relavant houses to the question. The planet exalted in the asc. frequently adds context as well. The method in The Search of the Heart (it doesent work) being the use of the Hyleg to detemine the thought, is the only one the makes sense to me conceptually. The difference here is that one looks to the victor among PLACEs. But the victor over one SINGLE place sacrifices finesse; among places it would be reasonable and expected.

The triplicity rulers dont seem relavant here, and I believe that this is because they refer to OTHER things and people, of the relavant house. In fact I have severe doubts of factoring in the triplicity for the almuten at all.

If one had to find another significator for a house the triplicity rulers would seem like the obvious choice to me. Bonatti was right about this and is defended by its use in in practice. So use the ruler of the house always. If you need to find another ruler for that house use the Primary triplicity ruler. If that is in use, then use one of the others. Failing this see if some Natural ruler is making itself known. Let the chart guide you.


Last edited by Tyler on Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:24 am; edited 4 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Tyler



Joined: 01 Jan 2013
Posts: 37
Location: USA

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chip wrote:
I've posted a chart,

https://sites.google.com/site/astrochip/almuten-or-ruler

The querent in the following relationship chart is trying to determine whether a young woman's current relationship with the other man will fail. The kicker to the question: if it does fail, will she pursue a partnership with the querent.

Normally, the querent = Venus, and the quesited = Mars, but in each case, the Almuten's are stronger: querent = Saturn and quesited = Sun

astrojin,

Quote:
I would prefer the almuten or ruler that describes the matter/querent/quesited


1. either significator in this case describes the matter:

a. Venus - the (desired) relationship
b. Saturn - the (hoped for) separation

2. either significator describes the querent:

a. Venus - effeminate in stature
b. Saturn - Lord of the querent's Geniture, older and father-like towards the quesited

3. either significator can describe the quesited

4. Saturn is commonly assigned to the 3rd-party; in this case, which also fits - the quesited is supposedly in a relationship with an older man/benefactor than the querent

5. the Moon separated from Venus (co-sig of the querent as per Dariot) and applies to Jupiter in detriment (co-sig of the quesited)

6. Venus also applies to Jupiter

7. the querent knows the quesited is materialistic (which fits, Mars in the 2nd) and would need to provide this gain

8. Most reception involve the quesited's Almuten, the Sun with Lord 1 or its dispositor, Mercury (unclaimed Sun customarily belongs to the male querent)

9. Saturn is in domicile detriment to Venus; which I'm certain the querent would like to see

So, which planet is the primary significator of the querent, quesited, and other man ?

a. Venus, Mars, Saturn
b. Saturn, Sun, Mercury
c. none of the above


I would look at Saturn being more the exaltation of the asc, rather then the almuten. He is also in the 1st, ruler of the 5th. More importantly Saturn is the primary triplicty ruler of the 1st so the querent is signified by Libra and is involved in the question, see venus in the 11th whole sign?. The question is about being impeded from romancing a person because they are already involved in a relationship so this would fit. Saturn is also the face ruler of the asc. The ruler of the Egyptian term is mercury. From the perspective of whole signs mercury is in the 1st house. Ruling the 12th in the 1st would fit condering the conniving nature to the query no? Mercury also rules the turned 3rd, is the querent currently in communication with this guy?

I personally believe the 2nd shows the querents self esteem and this view is mirrored in Vedic. Mars in the 2nd would make sense as the querent obviously holds this guy in high esteem and relations freqently have a bearing on esteem.

The 9nth part of the asc. is useful and here it is Aquarius. Hephaistio has this to say: "Ones business or failure,or the anticipatation of hopes", The Search of the Heart', Translated by Ben Dykes.

So with the 5th place being the 9th part and signifying romance one could set this as the basic theme. Saturn being the face, and also the exalted ruler attests its impotance in this chart. Saturn rules the 5th and is the triplicity ruler of the 1st showing the other person. The moons last seperation was with venus ruler of the 1st showing the querents attention on herself, and the 8th. The 8th could signify the esteem of the party desired. Mercury (as said) in the 1st Whole sign seems to better fit the context of the question then putting so much importance on the 12th cusp.

I dont agree with Lehman. If the relationship were to be broke off then an opposition would show this, not a sextile or trine. This defies reason.

If Saturn was used to signify the woman in the relationship with this guy then him and mars are in aversion. No aspect no action...they will not break it off. Venus is applying to mars by contra antiscion and venus applys by square to mars, so it seems the querents selfishness will soon be her undoing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 470
Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:29 am    Post subject: Mutually exclusive? Reply with quote

Good afternoon,

Are 'domicile rulers' and 'Al-Mubtazz' mutually exclusive or more complementary?

Yet another approach uses the 'natural significator' of a topic regardless where it be posited, ex. gr. Aphrodité in matters of lust and love. This approach is used heavily for example by the Aalen school ('cosmobiology) of Herr Reinhold Ebertin that recognises neither planetary dignities nor house systems.

As Mr Astrojin has correctly underscored, the determination of the Al-Mubtazz depends on several system choices of the astrologer AND on the weighting (point) system applied, a Mediaeval innovation compared to Hellenistic astrology.

For basic topical delineation Mr Robert Zoller (aside from the 'natural significator' method) suggested single (including ex. gr. placements in confines and receptions) and collective evaluation of:

1. planet(s) posited in the place including their sequence

2. domicile ruler

3. Al-Mubtazz

4. configurations of the above

5. one or maximum a very few lots per topical place depending on the specific matter of interest.

In practice the domicile ruler is most often the same as the Al-Mubtazz, ex. gr. using Klaudios Ptolomaios' elemental rulerships, whole sign places and Chaldaean confines, only Libra (Al-Mubtazz = Saturn) and Pisces (Al-Mubtazz = Venus) differ.

Best regards,

lihin
_________________
Non esse nihil non est.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Chip



Joined: 11 Nov 2010
Posts: 7

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I prolly shoulda responded sooner, but was hoping for greater clarification from the querent concerning the chart that I posted... but, he turned his back and walked away from the quesited...

@Geoffrey,

Quote:
She sounds like a friend here...?


The querent (male) wanted an intimate relationship/to copulate with the quesited (female)

Quote:
"Leehman... a positive "yes" answer to a negative question..."


The question was not really a Y or N. It was an exercise in reception. The question could have used clarification. An assumption was made by the querent that a 3rd-party existed based on the quesited's confession. (Now, we've never known a woman to invent a "rival" in order to stir the interest of a man she likes, or that she would like to see vie for her affection Smile)

When I cast the chart, I expected the 7th house ruler to be in mutual reception with another unidentified planet, or to see planets in her 7th or her turned 4th, or her Mars disposited by another planet. So, I naturally asked myself, "Where is the other man?"

I went to her Almuten, the Sun which is in Negative reception of Mercury, its dispositor; hence, my arrival to this thread.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Chip



Joined: 11 Nov 2010
Posts: 7

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Tyler,

I appreciate that you applied the chart to a whole house system. It allowed me to revisit the chart.

Quote:
The question is about being impeded from romancing a person


Yes

Quote:
because they are already involved in a relationship so this would fit


The impediment may not be the quesited's relationship with another man. This is undetermined.

Quote:
Mercury also rules the turned 3rd, is the querent currently in communication with this guy?


No.

Quote:
If Saturn was used to signify the (other man) in the relationship


This is the Lilly aphorism widely referred to by astrologers. Saturn (in this chart) as the partner to the Lord of the 7th would have to be known by the querent by virtue of his placement in the 1st. Unless having seen an iPhone photo of the "other man" constitutes having the 3rd-party in the querent's house Gobsmacked (which seems like a stretch to me).

Saturn is apt to represent the radical 4th - the querent's ailing father. The father was managing his condition (Saturn in dignity) at the time the chart was cast. Saturn is about to go peregrine which indicates a turn for the worse; Venus is in domicile to Saturn in detriment

if it is a love triangle chart, leaning towards almutens... if it's, "why isn't L1 together with L7 ?", then i'd use primary significators...

hope i shed some light
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Horary & Electional Astrology All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated