I have thus far has some amazing answers from ya'll... I'm so sorry for the length of my texts:)

The Situation: A court date. The particulars have already been drawn up and the defendant will be entering a plea of not guilty. The accused is charged with mischief. Probably not a chance of jail time. A trial may be set on that date/ it could be dropped/ it could be set for a different date. The defendant is accused of ?yelling and crying? from his own house, which was considered willfully disturbing enjoyment of property. Evidence that will be brought up that the court is not yet aware of is that the defendant was suffering from medical condition, was detained without proper medical attention, denied the request of a lawyer, has no criminal record and that accuser has lengthy record of criminal behavior and lying to police.

Prosecutor H1:
Saturn/Leo 10/7th H (Angular in Defendant) In face but detriment
Applying square Mars (The Judge H10/Communication H3)
Separating square Jupiter. (Neighbors H11/Posessions H2)
Shows prosecution originating in a good/confidant position, definitely invading the defendant in 7th. The separation shows the position of prosecution strong but turning to stressful (square with judge)

Defendant H2:
Moon/Pisces 17/2nd H (Succedent in H2 prosecutors amunition)
Applying sextile Mars (The Judge/Communication)
Separating trine Jupiter (Neighbors/prosecutors amunition)
Separating sextile Sun (The defendant cause it is major sign of H7 or Judge because its sun)
Applying or separating sextile or trine with all the angles
Shows Defendant in a medium position?obviously being in court is not good. The applying positive aspects make me believe there will be a positive turn in the case in favor of the defendant. The sextile with Mars confuses me (whether that is good or bad) good because it shows positive with the judge and with written statements..bad because it's well, Mars!

The Judge H10:
Mars/ Taurus 13/ 3rd H (Cadent in Written Statements) in Detriment
Applying square with Saturn (Prosecutor)
Applying opposition with Jupiter (Neighbors/Possessions)
Applying trine with Sun (Judge and/or Leo is the major sign of H7 defendant)
Applying sextile with Moon (Defendant)
Shows the judge as being the weakest player of the situation. Makes me believe the judge may be forced into a decision that he/she possibly does not want to make in favor/trine with defendant? Posiibly have to throw case out because of weak statements??

Prosecutors ammunition and supporters H2:
Jupiter is ruler, in Cadent house and not dignified. Approaching Square with Saturn (prosecutor) His own evidence against him. Opposition with Mars shows stress with written statements and possible stress with judge (mars represents both judge H10 and statement H3) and trine/moon and sextile sun shows favor for the defendant. Moon and North node in house 2 is unknown importance to me??

Writes contracts and deeds that affect prosecution H3:
Mars is ruler and in this cadent in H3 and in detriment. It is also applying to an opposition with Jupiter and a square with Saturn, which does not show great strength for evidence and causes stress with prosecutor. A trine with sun and sextile with Moon shows evidence in favor of the defendant?

Other details:
-North node in Aries H2 shows good news for lawyers; South Node in Libra H8 shows no help to defendant through allies.
-South Node separating from square with Sun (Judge and/or Leo is the major sign of H7 defendant), North Node applying to square with Sun (Judge and/or Leo is the major sign of H7 defendant) this part confuses me. Should the sun be representing the ?judge? or the ?defendant? (because Leo is the major sign of house 7)?? Assuming Sun is the defendant this shows that the defendant starts off weak and ends off stronger?
-North Node separating from trine with Saturn (Prosecutor) shows the prosecutor had a good case, South Node applying to sextile with Saturn (Prosecutor) shows the prosecutor?s case will become stressed.
- Still assuming that the Sun is sort of a co-signifier of the defendant. It sits in H12 possibly the worst place to be for a defendant but it?s positive aspects with moon, mars (judge), Jupiter (benefic) give hope and conjunction with misunderstood Arabic part gives despair.

Do Arabic parts make aspects or only conjunctions?? Imprisonment is in H11, exactly square moon (defendant) and separating square with Fortuna??

Also, House 4 (end of matters) is signified by Venus (a positive planet) but not well dignified or debilitated and in no aspect but angular in first house. Which only really leads me to believe that the end of the matter will be dealt with quickly. Does it?s placement in the prosecutor?s house mean ?in favor of the prosecutor?? The fact that the prosecution and defendant are in NO aspect, the judge and defendant in positive aspect and the moons course is about to apply sextile to venus is what really both messes me up and leads me to believe the case will be in favor of defendant.

I feel as though I am getting better with logically deducing the charts but not good at weighing out the strongest parts?and help in viewing this would be awesome. Of course I will be posting the actual outcome.

January 4, 2006 9:30 A.M. Vancouver, British Columbia

I agree with Tom?s overall assessment that it looks like the man is in a tough legal situation. And all of what I say is based on what Tom said about the first assumption being that the man who?s been charged gets the first house.

So we have the man as Saturn, in detriment, retrograde in the 7th house. So to start off with, his position is very weak. That?s like he?s been captured by his enemy, who I assume is the person who filed the complaint. Retrograde could show that he?s been through this before, probably a recurring disease.

I see his lawyer as represented by the 9th house ruler, Mars, also in its detriment. The judge and jury would be the 10th house ruler, Jupiter. And that?s bad for the man because Mars is applying to an opposition with Jupiter. So his lawyer and the judge or jury are going to be at odds with each other. Mars receives Jupiter by sign and triplicity so the lawyer is asking the judge for good treatment. But as Mars is so weak, and as Jupiter only receives Mars by term (it?s like he listens to him, but just barely) and as the aspect is an opposition, not much can come out of this at all. Jupiter, the judge is in the 3rd house while Mars, the lawyer is in the 3rd house. Both are cadent, so not able to offer the man very much help.

Saturn has also recently been is a square with both Jupiter and with Mars. While it?s good that these aspects have separated and don?t indicate future events, they do suggest that the man has a past with the judge, and maybe not a good one. The same may be true for his lawyer. But since this is an event chart for January and we are in December, these events may happen between now and January.

The man?s health is shown by the 6th house and it?s ruler, Mercury, which is peregrine in Capricorn. That seems to me to be a case of frazzled nerves. Nothing too serious, just someone who needs some down time.

I don?t see the 4th house as the end of the matter, or the decision of the case. Instead I was drawn to the Sun in Capricorn in the 12th house. The Sun represents the truth, and that is what is desired in a court case. Here the Sun is peregrine and hidden away in the 12th house. The Moon is translating light between Saturn and the Sun, so it wants to bring truth and justice to the man, but I don?t think it can do much. With no reception between Saturn and the Moon, with Saturn in it?s detriment and retrograde, and with the Moon being in the sign of Saturn?s fall, this is a powerless situation. A little better is the second leg of the translation, though it?s by square. The Sun receives the Moon by exaltation, triplicity and face, which is quite a welcome. Also notice that the Sun and Saturn are in mutual reception without an aspect, sometimes called generosity. These are a lot of factors to weigh in, but I?d say that the decision of the case and the man want to come together, but that not much good can come out of this, even though they try very hard. There are too many negatives here to be overcome by the translation and generosity, the Sun in the 12th, peregrine, and most of all Saturn very weak and in the house of his enemy.

Thank you so much, Tom and Mark both! The sun in 12th really got me too...should have seen it to mean simply "the truth"
This is what fascinates me about astrology, truly an art because so many people looking at the same thing and seeing different perspectives. Part of my frustration yet also gives such a clear resemblance to life

Canadian Law: This is a criminal case. The neighbor was the one who lodged the complaint. (In fact, this is a common thing for the neighbor to do, call the police over and over again when she doesn?t like someone.) However, the neighbor cannot decide on a criminal charge. It is the Police who decide to place a criminal charge and they do that based on the facts that they can gather. (the facts in this case being the cops heard yelling and crying and decided that was willfully preventing enjoyment of property) So this would mean that it is the ?state?/?province? that is placing the charge. The Prosecutor (Province) then says ?If you plead guilty, we will go easy on you and give you probation. It the courts eyes, this is not serious at all? but what it does do, is give a criminal record which limits work/ travel/ benefits ect.. For someone with a spotless record this is rather serious.

Therefore what I see is that it is the state as the ?enemy? and the neighbor is a ?part of their team?. If the neighbor shows up to the trial, this will strengthen their case and if the neighbor doesn?t bother to come then their case is weakened. If using H11 for neighbor jupiter is afflicted by both Saturn and Mars, If using turned 11 (H5) Mercury is a no show in 12th, If using H2 as part of prosecuters case, the moon(enemy) is a big part of that case...G* Alot of possibilities for teh neighbour..which house would you use for her??

What I am completely confused about is that you both used H1 as the accused?? Of course I am very new at this? I?m not questioning but instead trying to understand. In everything I have read, the prosecutor is house one, the defendant H7?I like that you both looked to the medical condition?it is indeed severe frazelled nerves (schizophrenia) and could have been calmed down but then police decided to detain (throw in jail) and deny medication because they thought it...?? According to the particulars it just shows they thought he was drunk and yelling and crying and willfully causing disturbance.

What I am trying to ask is; why wouldn?t the man be represented by 7th and his health represented by turned 6th which is then the 12th house that shows a difficult Jupiter, Mercury and Sun in 6th house? In the article ?The Appeal Judged by an Event Chart?, on this site, Christopher Warnock says, ?The 1st house represents my client, as he is the appellant, or plaintiff, and the prosecuting party in the appeal.? He is clearly sticking to 1st house as prosecutor even in the event of a scheduled time (not real time) and an event chart (versus horary).

Also? if it helps. I have the time of the booking. October 23, 2005 23:45, he was booked and told his charge. This is definitely a tough legal situation... it is all perceived willfullness, no hard evidence..he said she said stuff. Very difficult.
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Borealis,

You?re thinking too hard about this. The ASC and its ruler always represents the person in question, whether it?s you as the questioner, or the person in whose name the question is asked. So the person who you asking about is represented by the ASC and its ruler.

I haven?t read Chris Warnock?s article, but I think the principle that he?s using is not that the prosecutor always gets the first house, but that his clients always get the first house. This is key to understanding any question, and everything else flows from there.

The 7th house is the house of enemies. And this woman who called the cops certainly is an enemy, so she?s seen by the 7th house. I wouldn?t consider using the 11th house, because that?s the house of friendship and good luck, and this person is certainly not a friend and hasn?t brought anything but bad luck to the person in question. Neighbors in general are shown by the 3rd house, but that would refer to friendly neighbors, not ones who have someone arrested. If another neighbor comes in to testify, they might be shown by the 3rd house or by the 11th house if the person is more of a friend than a neighbor.

I still think that her lawyer is shown by the 9th house, but I could be wrong. I?m going to talk to people who know a lot more about legal charts.

I believe your right...thinking too much:) I tend to be that way.

I was seeing H2 as human resources of the prosecution and H3 as written statements...This is in fact the whole sum of the evidence. What people are saying. I do believe the actual lawyer in H9. I also believe that this dispute is more between the police officer making a good decision or not and whether or not the defendant was truely being criminal or not.

I can;t quite wrap my mind around the H1 or H7 thing quite yet...but sometimes when Im emotionally involved it takes time for that stuff to "click".. Time for a Tea:)

OK, lets scrap everything I just said. I talked to Chris Warnock just now, and he says that because this is an event chart and not a horary question, that the ASC is always the prosecution and that the defendent is the 7th house.

If the person had come to you and asked you to do a horary chart, you would have used that time as the time of the chart, and then the ASC would have been the person who was arrested. So the key thing here is that this is not a question, but an event chart based on the court date. OK. My apologies. I'll look at the chart from that point of view and come up with another, hopefully better reading.

Gosh..no need for apologizing. I am just trying to learn the rules here. Now I realize the difference between election and horary as well. I probably should not have posted in this section. I believe that means though that it's everything you already said but in favor of defendant.

There is something that Tom said "outcome of the case determined by radical 4th" or something, this would mean outcome is determined by the 10th house. Meaning the Judge determines the outcome and the ruler of 10th being mars is sextile the defendant and square the prosecuter. A good outcome for defendant eh:)

and if the end of all matters 4th house is used...the moon(who is also defendant) is about to sextile the end of the matter.

MarkF wrote:I agree with Tom?s overall assessment that it looks like the man is in a tough legal situation. And all of what I say is based on what Tom said about the first assumption being that the man who?s been charged gets the first house.

I dont think that is correct.

I understood the accepted practice was that in an EVENT chart, the prosecutor gets the first house. That is because the state/prosecutor has laid the charge and initiated the action. The defendant gets the 7th House.

I have been applying that method to legal charts with great success.

(of course, in a horary, the querent (defendant) would get the first house.)

I understood the accepted practice was that in an EVENT chart, the prosecutor gets the first house. That is because the state/prosecutor has laid the charge and initiated the action. The defendant gets the 7th House.

I think you're right. The person who initiates the action gets the first house. OK let's see how this works. We still have the conflicting testimony of Saturn in the power of the 7th, i.e., this way the prosecutor is in the power of the defendant. Since this makes no sense I think it can be ignored.

So now the prosecutor has the better case, and there is the dubious judge to deal with. Things are stacking up against the defendant.


The Sun Saturn mutual reception might indicate a deal in the making at trial, but the end of the matter, Mercury, lord 4 is in a Saturn (prosecutor) sign, so I have to reverse fields and predict the defendant will lose or at least concede something at trial. Sun in the radical 12th isn't erassuring at all, but it is the defendant's 6th and may have more to do with the health issue.

Tom

Tom wrote:
Caution: If these things work as they do in the US, 9:30 is when the court convenes. This case might not be heard for hours or even on a different day. My somewhat hasty judgment is based on a 9:30 time and the assumption that the ASC goes to the defendant. If the prosecutor gets the ASC, that combined with the condition of the judge, I'd go the other way.

Tom[/color]

Borealis, I share Tom's concern that the chart you have drawn might be invalid. It appears the next court hearing is on a court "list" day, where fixtures are set down for future dates.

As Tom points out, just because Court starts at 9:30, does not mean the matter will be heard at that time. 9:30 is when they start going through the list. We could be looking at a chart with the wrong ascendant and therefore the wrong significators.

I completely see what you mean now... There would be a huge number of cases turning out with the same outcome if this time is used I guess... I have no way to solve this. But will be sure to let you all know on the 4th or 5th

One more question that I have though is if house 4 as "end of matters" begins with a cusp of taurus and ends with a house 5 cusp of gemini then why is everyone saying that house 4 is ruled by mercury? Is it because that is the end of house 4?

Also, in a court case there could be more than one end of the matter. The judges decision (House 10) could be the end of the trial and the end of the matter (House 4) could be fullfillment of the consequence. Or could it not? any experience?