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It sounds like you are tying yourself up in knots on this :)
If anything, isn't there collection of light as follows? The Sun opposes Mars, leaves some of it's light on the slower Mars. Then Venus applies to Mars and picks up some of the Sun's light from Mars, thus making that collection of light between the Sun and Venus, via Mars.
Collection of light is where two significators both simultaneously apply to a third, which isn?t happening here because the Sun is separating from Mars. Translation is where a planet separates from one significator and then applies to another, which is happening, but by retrograde motion. On p.126 Lilly doesn?t say it has to be a ?lighter? planet, but many definitions do because the translating planet will have to be lighter unless it?s retrograde. I personally don?t think we have to disregard the process because it?s happening in this way, but short of finding a traditional definition that caters for every scenario or rules out all other inconsistencies this may have to remain a matter of opinion.

But to some extent it doesn?t really matter whether you call this translation or collection ? both offer ways for two significators which are not otherwise connected to make a connection through a third planet that they are both in contact with. If, overall, all the connections are difficult and hostile, it?s not necessarily going to show a positive result, but it could show the meddling of a third party, or something that complicates the matter.

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Yes, I am rather knot-bound over this, partly because I am in the chart, and partly because I haven?t seen so many examples of translation or collection (or whatever that is) and prohibition in one chart. My real question is how much help can Venus offer here? And my answer is wow, she?s doing the best she can, but she?s up against some tough opposition. I keep thinking of the Tarot card the Nine of Swords, when reversed, ?May indicate the narrow avoidance of a death or other catastrophic loss?, or maybe even the Ten of Swords, when reversed, ?A crushing and seemingly total defeat that hides within it the seeds of final victory.? To tell the truth I did a one-card Tarot reading about this situation before I got a chance to read the chart and I got the Nine of Cups, which is called the ?Wish Card.?

Back to reality, so Deb, you wouldn't call that collection because the fist leg of it, the contact of the Sun to Mars has happened in the past? That's interesting because that past contact seems to be part of the definition of translation, that there be a separating aspect. On a theoretical level that doesn't seem to be consistent. And I think I have seen examples of charts where someone says there is translation of light when all of the aspects are in the future, where all are applying aspects. I wish I could find those charts, because I am sure I have seen that. Why would it matter if one aspect has to be separating in translation, but disallow collection for the same reason? I know this is Lilly?s definition but I can?t figure out a reason why.

Would it also be fair to say that Venus prohibits the square between Mars and Saturn, and that when Mars opposes Jupiter it prohibits the opposition between Jupiter and Saturn? In other words, when is a contact said to prohibit something, and when is it said to translate light?

Also, on a purely abstract level, and not in this chart, would you agree that translation works best when the reception is between the two planets that are not in contact? It would seem to me that we?d want them to be open to help each other the most. If they are also in reception with the planet that?s translating, all the better. For example, if planet A wants some money that is shown by Planet B, and there is no contact between them but there is translation between them, I would rather see Planet B receive Planet A (or would it be the other way around?) then I would see some reception between one of them and the planet that is translating. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Mark F

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deb, thank you so much for that clarification on TOL! i did not realize a heavier planet could translate light as long as it's retrograde. your information was very helpful to me.

mark, i would agree that reception helps a translation of light bring about a positive outcome. it's generally said that the significator from which the translating planet is separating should receive the faster planet in one of its essential dignities, but i would think that if the translation is occuring between 2 significators that are not in aspect, that reception between those 2 significators that aren't aspect would help a lot, though nobody really talks about this. anyone else?

i've been interested in checking out the sabian symbol for the antiscion of any relevant house cusp in the horaries i do, it always seems to provide some insight for me (sometimes amazingly so). i checked out the sabain for the antiscion for the querent's house in your horary, and here it is:

SCORPIO 12 -- AN OFFICIAL EMBASSY BALL

You may find this to be a time of pleasant, almost party-like atmosphere. Enjoying social situations can be rewarding on many levels. However, the conditions may be caged in protocols and rules of behaviour. Look at yourself and observe whether you are being your natural self or putting on a show for others.

Political game-playing. Manners and protocol. Who knows who and what it's worth.

The Caution: Becoming affected by the habit of role-playing. Not being taught to behave in "polite society".

do you think that is descriptive of the situation at all?

this discussion brings up a few questions for me about translation. can translation intervene before a difficult aspect becomes perfect? i have read that it can, but not everyone seems to agree with this. what do you guys think? what if the translating planet is a co-significator?

this is the specific situation i came across in a recent chart: the 2 main significators were applying to an opposition, but the moon which is my co-significator had separated from my main significator by opposition and was applying to conjunct the quesited's planet before the opposition between the main significators could perfect. i should mention that the moon and the quesitied's significator were co-almutens of the chart, and my main significator was actually peregrine.

the only reception taking place was that my main significator was in the quesited's terms.

anyway, this seems like a difficult translation. not sure if it helps at all, but any thoughts about whether a TOL can intervene before a difficult aspect perfects would be appreciated. i've been so curious about that.


sincerely,
chrissy

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Chrissy,

I got that idea that translation works best, or at least works well when the two planets are in reception with each other, but not with the planet that is translating from one of Lilly's examples. It's on page 182. Venus is the querant and Mars is the thing asked about, money. Venus receives Mars by sign, while Mars receives Venus by term and face. The Moon translates light from Mars to Venus and has no reception with either Mars or Venus. Also notice that Mar is in its detriment, yet Lilly doesn't mention that. But he says this chart shows perfection. There are some other factors that point to perfection, namely that Mars is also in the 1st house and very close to the ASC, i.e., the money comes to him.

The data for the chart is July 26, 1634, at 11:15 AM, in London.

Lilly sure knew how to pick his example charts good. He always gives a chart that show the rules being used creatively.

About your chart where you and the quesited are applying to opposition, and the Moon has just separated from you and is going to now oppose the quesited, I would think that its not so much translation, but a further emphasis to the opposition aspect. I'd see it as the main message is that you and the thing desired are in an opposing relationship, with an exclamation point!

About... about the Sabian symbols... well... lets just say that this situation is anything but an Embassy ball.
Mark F

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This would be seen as translation but its value, as Mark points out, would be to further emphasise the already existing application between the significators. The Moon is carrying the virtue of one planet over to the other, but whether that is helpful or not depends on an overall assessment.

It?s also worth pointing out that the translation Lilly refers to on p.182 is only one consideration within a lengthy judgement where Lilly pulls numerous factors together. This offers support for his argument but he proves the argument in many other ways too.

With regards reception ? it?s not always necessary to have it but it is always considered useful. But the reception that some authors specify to guarantee a successful translation is where the planet that translates is received by the planet it is separating from.