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french rioting

1 by gemini sungirl
what is gong down astrologically with France right now? using the chart for the 5th republic
http://www.astro.com/im/in/chart_fr_e.gif?lang=e
T uranus opposes France's Pluto and squares Mars = rioting? where would you look in the chart for disaffected members of the population? And does saturn on cusp of 9th and ruling government have any bearing on this? It makes an inconjunct to Moon in cancer in 4th If I remember rightly, moon is also signifier of the people in mundane? I'm wondering if this could be it?
thanks in advance
gsg
The importance and unimportance of the self cannot be exaggerated - Reginald Blyth

2 by granny_skot
natal Saturn conj Transiting Pluto in house of education, Travel, divinity..
Mars in first house of the people in detriment and retrograde to boot... frustrated passions muddying up a beautiful place.
Transiting Saturn coming to conj with Natal Uranus in Fifth house which will then be trine natal Satun and transiting Pluto, so there is some hope for change in authority, possibly with better representation for the people and government... Ambassadors? the saturn Neptune opposition will perfect at about 16 degrees Leo/AQU on Sept 6th 2006, so real solution to these issues might not be overnight.

With Martian Populace and Saturn Rulers, there is bound to be upheaval.

well my 2 cents anyway.I think things will settle down once Mercury trines saturn.

Granny

3 by Tom
Nicholas Campion gives two charts for the 5th Republic. The chart given by gemini sungirl is Oct 6, 1958 at 6:30 pm. That is the approximate time of the fixing of the seal to the new Constitution. The other chart is Oct 5, 1958 at midnight, which is the time the new government became effective. Both are set for Paris.

I think the last eclipse was on the French Sun or very close. As for the rioters, I'd look to the 12th. They started out leaderless or nearly so, but with the discovery of a bomb factory it seems that after some spontanety, more sinister forces are in effect. Regardless of who they are (most say about 90% of the rioters are Muslim and the French government has met with some firebrand clerics), I think the 12th house would be appropriate. Terrorists are there to take advantage of the situation and/or the concept of secret enemies seems to fit.

The comparisons of the current situation to Jean Raspail's 1973 novel, Camp of the Saints are erie. He deserves the prophet of the last quarter century award.

Tom

4 by gemini sungirl
thanks Tom and Granny, I was wondering about the french chart dates- eric francis has used the 5th october chart in his essay on jonathan cainers site... tho' I do think the 6th October chart which puts Sag on 9th with Saturn in it has good resonance with the entrenched insularity /patriotism of france, and has aries rising which is a fitting description of the french people who will take to the streets and demonstrate at the slightest provocation...
The importance and unimportance of the self cannot be exaggerated - Reginald Blyth

5 by Graham F
Tom
You wrote some time ago
Nicholas Campion gives two charts for the 5th Republic. The chart given by gemini sungirl is Oct 6, 1958 at 6:30 pm. That is the approximate time of the fixing of the seal to the new Constitution. The other chart is Oct 5, 1958 at midnight, which is the time the new government became effective. Both are set for Paris.
With regard to the recent terrorist attacks in Paris, I was trying to see which of the several national chart fits best. A member noted that the chart for the execution of Louis XVI is sometimes used (this seems established as 21 Jan 1793 at 10:22, presumably LAT or LMT). The Campion 6:30 chart for the 5th Republic has exactly the same Asc and MC as the execution chart (LAT). This seems a bit fishy. Do you think Campion may have deliberately rectified to fit? 6:30 seems very late in the day for French officialdom to be fixing seals. I can't find any references to the time of the sealing - do you know if Campion gives any?

Many thanks for any help.
Graham

6 by Mark
Graham wrote:
With regard to the recent terrorist attacks in Paris, I was trying to see which of the several national chart fits best. A member noted that the chart for the execution of Louis XVI is sometimes used (this seems established as 21 Jan 1793 at 10:22, presumably LAT or LMT). The Campion 6:30 chart for the 5th Republic has exactly the same Asc and MC as the execution chart (LAT). This seems a bit fishy. Do you think Campion may have deliberately rectified to fit? 6:30 seems very late in the day for French officialdom to be fixing seals. I can't find any references to the time of the sealing - do you know if Campion gives any?

Many thanks for any help.
Graham

Gosh Graham,

This is a very old thread. You have been digging haven't you!

I doubt Tom has much more to contribute on a national chart at least. As a staunchly traditional astrologer Tom has frequently questioned the validity of using national charts in general. The numerous charts proposed for France mirrors the problem we have with the USA.

Logically though if we want to use a national chart I think the most rational candidate national charts are those for a founding of a nation or its most recent constitutional government chart. So charts for the 1st Republic or 5th Republic both have their appeal.

Its difficult to identify a chart for the founding of France. But there seems little doubt that modern France emerged as a result of the Revolution of 1789 and the subsequent declaration of a Republic with the abolition of the monarchy on 21 September 1792, by the newly established National Convention. The changeover from a monarchy to a republic seems a pivotal change in France which has left a legacy in French national culture to this day.

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

7 by Graham F
Thanks Mark
I agree that the founding of the nation would be the most logical, i.e. the 1st Republic (I'm happy with 9:18 on 22/9/1792) or the 5th Republic in 1958. For the latter, Campion's chart for fixing of the official seal on consitution at 6:30 on October 6th 1958 looks impressive - but suspiciously so in that it tallies so well with the guillotining of Louis XVI in 1793, which is precisely timed according to various references. I wonder if Campion didn't have an eye on that chart when settling for 6:30, which is very late for French bureaucracy. So I wouldn't feel comfortbale using it without some sort of supporting reference - but I can't find one!
Thanks anyway
Graham

8 by midheaven
Hi,
I think that a qualified historian (I am not) could maybe make a decision on this matter.
Our national hymn is a patriotic song from the french Revolution. Concerning the guillotining of Louis XVI it?s a date I saw used only one time.
The text of the 5th Republic wasn?t said forever. On several occasions there was talk of to go over to a 6th Republic, without a big change in our political system. But until this, yes, presently we still are in the 5th Republic in France.

Well, concerning the execution of Louis XVI it was a political act which put an end to the traditional monarchy (with a king living at Versailles) of the "Ancien R?gime". But even though the 1st Republic was a time in France where there was no monarchy or empire, this time didn?t last forever and we have had other monarchs in France after the french Revolution. The real last monarch was the emperor Napoleon III (until 1871).
There was a lot of stories (and movies) concerning Louis XVI (and Marie-Antoinette) and the french Revolution, it?s cultural. Probably people from the UK ought to think that it is a very odd thing to guillotine his king...
It was a long time ago, we have evolved :lol:

9 by Mark
Hi Graham/Midheaven,

Excellent points by both of you. However, we are already discussing a national chart for France on another thread recently opened by Graham. Can I suggest we shift all future comments to that thread rather than continue on this old thread with a different title? I think that will be more straightforward for people following this issue.

Thanks

Mark
Last edited by Mark on Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly

11 by Mark
Hi Deb,

I knew Midheaven and Graham were aware of the forum topic I was referring to as they have both posted there and its near the top of the forum board. But you are quite right that others may be much less clear. The forum topic I refer to is entitled Paris Attacks/French National Chart.

Here is the link: http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8945

Mark
As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity William Lilly
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