Should I use the "rumour" rule?

1
I asked the question " Will the Executive Director (ED) remain past Christmas"

15 Oct 7.23am SAST (GMT + 9.5)
Adelaide Sth Aust
34s55 / 138e35

My first thought was to use L10 as 'the king' to the signify the ED. She is my manager's manager. Then I wondered if I should turn the chart and use the 10th of the 10th.

Then I realised at the base of the question was a rumour that she had been told not to return after the Christmas break. Should I use L3 to see if the rumour is true?

Or am I needlessly complicating things and I should just take the ruler of the 1st to signify the ED? Many dislike her managerial style and think she is simply out of her depth, written complaints have been made and it appears things are coming to a head.

2
Hi,

I would have thought lord 10 and/or Sun should be the significator(s). Also, I would have thought that things would remain as they are unless you have fairly strong reason to suppose otherwise.

From the chart I have drawn up (asc. 2 Taurus) Saturn is Lord 10 so both he and Sun are already in a bad way. Saturn is squared by Mercury, although 1 minute separated this is a partile aspect. Also the fact that it has already perfected could indicate that it is true that she has had this communication not to come back after Christmas. Mercury is the ruler of the turned 5th and 8th (although not sure you would turn the 8th to be honest). Also Sun is approaching Jupiter which is the ruler of the radical 8th.

On the other hand the Moon is Void of Course which, although not to be taken as an absolute, may mean that 'nothing happens', i.e. the status quo is maintained.

What do you think?

In any case I don't think I'd take the 10th from the 10th nor the 3rd house - otherwise you could phrase every question as 'is it true that ...?'.
Susan,
Edinburgh.
www.horaryqueen.co.uk

3
I think you have the wrong chart HoraryQueen. The chart was an am chart and I suspect you used pm. The chart has a very late Scorpio ascendant. The Moon is not VOC.

I am curious as to where you learned that VOC means 'nothing will happen'. I can't imagine that John Frawley would say this, although I could be wrong. I see it being said quite a bit and taken as the answer for the chart that the querent has nothing to worry about. I don't see VOC that way at all. The other thing I am seeing quite a bit is that the 4th house, being the end of the matter, holds the answer to the chart. Twice now I have seen horary teachers say that if the chart is confusing to you, just look at the 4th house and you will get your answer. I have seen this used in a number of delineations by others.

4
Hi,

Gosh I was in such a rush to get out (dancing) tonight, I didn't event check properly.

Re VOC Moon 'matters go hardly on', which I would expect to hinder whatever outcome is being enquired about. How would you interpret this if the Moon WERE VOC in this chart? Or anyone else for that matter?

Anyway, back to the drawing board - another evening!

Thanks for your comments.
Susan,
Edinburgh.
www.horaryqueen.co.uk

5
Re VOC Moon 'matters go hardly on', which I would expect to hinder whatever outcome is being enquired about.
This is quite different from 'nothing to worry about'. Lilly says with VOC that 'matters will seldomly go handsomely forward' or something like that. The VOC Moon is seen as an impediment to a good outcome, except possibly if found in Taurus, Sagittarius, Cancer, or Pisces. Bonatus was probably even more explicit. He says that a planet being VOC runs alone until it is again joined to another and that this is a kind of impediment for the planet. He quotes Alchabitus who said something about the planets being Ferel or Rustic when VOC. He says it is 'a great impediment for the planet and is a very horrible thing'. One of the differences between Lilly and Bonatus is that Bonatus does not allow for orbs that require going over a sign boundary whereas Lilly does, as long as they are within an accepted orb. This confuses me a bit because Lilly was very adamant about other things not crossing sign boundaries, for example, combustion.
Anyway, I really can't see that VOC Moon can mean that there is nothing to worry about. If this was true, VOC Moon would not be one of the Considerations Before Judgement.

6
Sorry for forgetting to post the ASC ? it is 26.57 Scorpio.

I?m happy to use the 10th if you think that represents the ED and I guess I then have to turn the chart. So the ED is a debilitated Sun in its fall and peregrine in her turned 3rd approaching conjunction to Jupiter, ruler of her turned 5th and 8th. She is perceived to have chaotic communication skills. I think this is reinforced by the partile square from Mercury natural ruler of communication also in the 3rd (ruling her 2nd of income), to Saturn which is conjunct the turned ASC and rules the turned 6th of her service (to the institute), her servants (managers below her) and 7th of relationships with other people. While she may have good intentions shown by Saturn?s conjunction to the Asc, her communications with the managers who report to her may affect her income.

Jupiter is combust in Venus? sign ? Venus rules the turned 10th, the ED?s job, status and her own manager (there is a CEO above her). The Sun is opposition Fortuna which is disposited by Mars retrograde, peregrine and in detriment in her 9th and separating from her 10th (it?s an institute of higher education and she came from another state to take up the position). This position of Mars is a bit tricky ? the 5 degree rule means it should be read it the 10th but I think it?s retrograde motion puts it back in the 9th but only just. Do others agree?

Note the degree of the turned 10th is conjunct (47?) to Algol! The Moon and Mars are approaching sextile and will perfect before Mars turns direct and conjuncts the 10th cusp (beginning of Feb when the educational year resumes). However the Moon rules her 12th of secrets and self-undoing.

I don?t think this looks good for the ED, particularly looking at Venus as ruler of her 10th and representing the job. Venus is in Jupiter?s sign and term and I take this to be the Lord of the 8th receiving Venus which is approaching a trine to Saturn in 2 somethings. Scorpio fixed and cadent = 2 months = Christmas? I don't think this trine is enough to secure the ED's position. Mars and Saturn are or will both be on angles and with Algol on the 10th cusp. Neither of her significators (Sun and Moon) aspect Venus as ruler of her job.
The other thing I am seeing quite a bit is that the 4th house, being the end of the matter, holds the answer to the chart.
Sue - I have used this with some success when the chart leads around to it as I think it does here and yet I don?t remember where I picked it up. This particular chart is probably quite a good illustration as well. Mars also rules the 4th traditionally thought of as the ?home?, since that doesn?t really have a place in this question, it can be thought of as a ?place of comfort and security? i.e. is the end of the matter here a place of comfort for the ED? Again I don?t think so, a confirmation of the somewhat precarious position this chart shows her to be in - but as I said, I don?t know where I picked up ?the end of the matter?.

7
Hi Sungem,

The fourth house is related to the end of the matter. You are quite correct. I wasn't questioning that. I was questioning the use of it by some people. When used, it needs to be taken into consideration with the rest of the chart. I've seen it happen where finding an answer from the chart is difficult and so they will fail to consider the rest of the chart and try to find an answer to the question solely from the fourth house.

In relation to your question, does this involve you directly? If not, and you are asking out of curiosity or something along those lines, perhaps you should consider putting her on the ascendant. However, I think these charts can be confusing because there is no clearcut relationship between the querent and the chart. I think to get a good, clear chart, there needs to be a strong relationship between the querent (you in this case) and the chart. This is unlikely to happen if this is mere curiosity. Of course, if this is important to you then you should get the ascendant.

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Hi Sue

Thanks for clarifying the 4th house/end of the matter issue. Thought for a minute I had developed another nasty habit! :)
When used, it needs to be taken into consideration with the rest of the chart.
I had always thought that the 4th as the end of the matter should be read more-or-less as a confirmation of the judgement arrived at. Also, when the 4th involves itself in the judgement as it does above, it tends to be quite pertinent. In the chart above Mars rules the 4th and 9th and is effectively saying to me "I'm not talking about the place where she lives, I'm talking about the place where she works" - the ED moved interstate to take a position in higher education, both 9th house matters.
I've seen it happen where finding an answer from the chart is difficult and so they will fail to consider the rest of the chart and try to find an answer to the question solely from the fourth house.
I guess some could be tempted by this, and there will be charts that say "I'm not going to describe every little thing, here's the answer" but it takes away the intricacies of working it out doesn't it.
In relation to your question, does this involve you directly?
Yes I think I can say it does since I can often spend the entire day having to reorganise and rearrange my manager's schedule to fit in with the ED's erratic behaviour. In other words, the ED can wipe out my day, and this has been known to happen a couple of times in a week.
However, I think these charts can be confusing because there is no clearcut relationship between the querent and the chart.
I'm very aware of this link between querent and chart and the chart often tells me its none of my business. However I don't believe that is the case here, I think this chart is quite "chatty" and providing I get the assignments right I will come to the correct judgement. My initial problem was assigning the house, who was "king" - my manager, her manager (ED) or the ED's manager (CEO). I had not tried to judge the chart and then said "oh I don't like this answer, I wonder if there's another way" - I had too many kings and too little experience to begin.
Of course, if this is important to you then you should get the ascendant.
Even though I am a bystander in the actual decisions affecting the outcome? This clarifies a point for me - I'm affected but not affected by this chart if you see what I mean, but if I understand you correctly this is the same as asking will my friend get the job i.e. I get the Asc. I had wondered whether I should remove myself from the question and give the ED the ASC so I might have a look at the chart from that point of view later today.

I'm editing to add this because I've just realised giving the ED the Asc may well describe the question of what is happening to her. The postion of her significator so close to the 7th now back in the 6th - there is insurrection in the ranks and the situation does seem about to implode - more later.

VOC moon and "nothing will come of it"

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I read with interest the comments about the VOC moon the statement some make about it meaning "Nothing will come of it."

I have found that sometimes, it means exactly this.

And depending on the question asked, that may be exactly the answer you hoped for! (For example, I've sometimes asked about a particular medical symptom and the VOC moon told me "Nothing will come of it," or to put it another way, "nothing to worry about" and so far, so good.

The moon was VOC when I cast chart this summer asking about the safe return of my two lost dogs and I judged that chart to mean "Nothing to worry about" and as I predicted, the two dogs showed up (one in the dog pound several days later -- the other found by a kind soul shortly after going missing.)

However, I've also found the VOC moon can also mean what Barbara Watters said it does: that somehow the question asked can't be answered because the VOC moon indicates that the situation has no future as things stand. (However, unlike some astrologers, Watters would refuse to delineate a VOC moon chart altogether.)

I've found that if the moon is VOC, I seldom have to go any further in the interpretation: generally, depending on the question, I can safely say, "Don't worry about it," Or "it won't work out the way you planned if at all," or something to that effect. In my experience, it doesn't matter what the rest of the chart says if the Moon is VOC. (Unless the only aspect it is making is a trine or conjuction to the POF.)

The other interpretation for the VOC moon from time to time can mean "None of your business!"

In studying Lee Lehman's relationship horary series, I saw that every single chart where the moon was VOC, there was no future in the relationship... so the "nothing will come of it" rule seems to apply here.

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I've found that if the moon is VOC, I seldom have to go any further in the interpretation: generally, depending on the question, I can safely say, "Don't worry about it," Or "it won't work out the way you planned if at all," or something to that effect.
This is not what VOC represents. As I said earlier, it is a Consideration before Judgement, warning that great care needs to be taken with delineation. All traditional authorities specify that VOC Moon is very undesirable. Firmicus describes it as 'running through a vacuum'.
In studying Lee Lehman's relationship horary series, I saw that every single chart where the moon was VOC, there was no future in the relationship... so the "nothing will come of it" rule seems to apply here.
Actually, it says exactly what Lilly says it means-that the business enquired about will seldom go handsomely forward. Most people ask relationship horaries in the hope that the answer will be yes. Yes, you will live happily ever after. A no is a very undesirable answer and hardly the same as 'nothing will come of it' and certainly not the same as 'there is nothing to worry about.'

11
Oh dear, I?ve picked a ?doozy? here, but in the belief that it?s the charts you struggle with that you learn from, I will persevere.

The ED gets Mars, Moon and also Venus because it is in her 1st house. Venus rules the 7th of other people - it is probably fair to say that other people are affecting her well-being - and also the 12th house of secrets, hidden enemies and self-undoing.

Mars rules the 6th of her servants, those working for her. Four general managers (GMs, my manager is one of these) report to the ED. Each of those GMs has about 12 educational managers (EMs) reporting to them and these EMs manage the educational side of the institute along with the lecturers and admin staff. So I think I have to give Mars to all those below her and leave the ED with the Moon and Venus.

Mars is still read in the 7th with the 5 degree rule as it hasn?t retrograded far enough to be considered out of it (I was wrong above). About 2 weeks ago, the educational managers met to discuss what they consider is the detrimental effect the ED?s decisions are having on their programs. Afterward they informed the general managers of their action and their intent to hold another meeting next Friday (28th) which the GMs are invited to attend. I think Mars? position might indicate the employees showing themselves as ?open enemies? since it is in Venus? sign and triplicity, is exhalted by the Moon and is received in Saturn?s term and face. Saturn rules communication and the end of the matter. However while Mars is not strong in essential dignities and therefore does not have the power to act, it?s reception by the Moon shows it has the inclination to act and the approaching sextile to and by the Moon shows the ability to act. I would interpret its debilitated state as making Mars as malefic as it can be although the 7th cusp on Algol may also mean the employees are losing their heads and consequently perspective. However Fortuna representing the ED?s treasure is in the 6th and is disposited by Mars. Fortuna is conjunct the malefic fixed star Baten Kaitos (21.57 Aries) which has among its meanings isolation, scholarly and shipwrecks. So this might mean either the ED?s treasure is shipwrecked or the employees are. The Moon as the ED?s primary significator also rules the 9th of higher learning. I am trying to be objective here and if others have a different view I would appreciate it since I can?t see anything getting in the way of that sextile.

So is the ED?s job secure? The Moon makes no other aspect since it is well past the trine to the Sun and Jupiter. The MC is her job, status and reputation and is represented by the Sun in the 12th , it is in Venus? sign and is exhalted by Saturn and is in Jupiter?s face. Jupiter is her income and combust and also rules the 5th ? her enjoyment or read another way, her gamble moving to take the job is also combust. Apart from being in the house of self-undoing, the Sun is peregrine and in its fall so if ?any planet in its fall can be malign? hold true, the job does not appear to be secure. The sun is also conjunct the fixed star Foramen (22.09 Libra) = prosperity, indecision, leadership and shipwreck, a lot like Baten Kaitos really. In addition the south node indicating loss or things past, is in the 12th and is conjunct the antiscion of the Moon (13.11 Libra) and I read this as also indicating loss.

Venus as her other significator is trine the MC and applying to Saturn conjunct the MC. Venus is strongly placed in the 1st , is in mutual reception with Jupiter by sign and is also in Jupiter?s terms, so she identifies with the position and the income.

Saturn is conjunct the MC and strong by its elevated position in the chart and unlike Venus, Moon and Mars it is not peregrine (face), however it is in its detriment and therefore also has the capacity to be malign. I also have in my head that Saturn at the MC means ?change of status? (good or bad depending).

Apart from the conjunction to the MC, the only other aspect for Saturn is an applying partile square from Mercury in the 12th. Mercury is received by Mars in sign, triplicity and face. Mercury rules the 8th of loss and the 11th of income from the job or groups, friends, hopes and wishes. Saturn receives Mercury by term and if in this case, Saturn does turn out to be malign and restrictive then the ED could well find herself in a less than secure position.

I think that?s all I can get out of this chart. Is Venus? strong position and rulership of the 7th and 12th enough to overcome everything else ? I just don?t know. The ?ship she sails in? is very strongly placed but with all those shipwrecks around? However it is interesting that I did not get a completely different reading this time and I was really good and didn't use the outers once! Didn't have too there's too much else going on. I think the ED might survive the confrontation this time but be much less secure in her position.

HQ ? thanks for getting me started, without your initial help I doubt I would have judged this chart.

Sue ? thanks for making me rethink whether I should give the ED the ASC.
In relation to your question, does this involve you directly? If not, and you are asking out of curiosity or something along those lines, perhaps you should consider putting her on the ascendant.
Your comment played on my mind through the weeding :) and by the time I came back in I had decided that I was indirectly affected and therefore she should probably get the Asc.

cheers,
Sungem

12
Hi,

I tend not to take the VOC in isolation as a testimony. If you are asking about something 'positive', e.g. will I get a job within the next six months. If the indicators are positive but the moon is VOC, I might say that there is something good out there for the querent, but perhaps not within the six months enquired about, or not without struggle and setback. So, it wouldn't completely negate the other indicators.

If someone is asking about something 'bad', as in this question, we have to use some discretion about the likelihood of it happening and also what facts we have to substantiate the question. In this case, the VOC moon in isolation (which was only there in the first place 'cos I got the chart wrong!) with no strong negative indications would not indicate a major change such as this.

In this type of chart we might look for the significators getting worse, losing dignity, essential or accidental. The significators being bad may confirm that the querent is struggling to perform effectively, but is the situation getting better or worse, or staying the same? Couldn't get much worse essentially really so it depends on the Jupiter.

Keep us informed.
Susan,
Edinburgh.
www.horaryqueen.co.uk