Hi?

I would appreciate some help on interpreting two horaries related to questions about employment. I am in the process of searching for a new job, and I definitely have some anxieties. I have been unemployed for a while and really want to find something with a good salary; I have been worried that I may have trouble getting a job because of some credit troubles. I know many employers ask for credit checks, and my credit at the moment isn?t that great, although I am working on improving it. I have been making the rounds of search firms in the area to see if they have any jobs that I might be suited for. One discussed a good potential position with me, that would be working as a ?right hand man? (or in my case, woman) to the president of some type of investment company. I believe the search firm has already started calling my references. On Friday, I asked, ?will I get the job?? Chart data is Friday, Oct. 15, 2005 at 4:38:50pm EDT in Jacksonville, FL. Moon is at 16:05 Pisces. I am using the classical rulerships in my own attempts to answer the question, although you are welcome to make suggestions using the modern rulerships.

Here?s what I am getting about this one: I am represented by Jupiter. Jupiter is combust in the 8th house which to me depicts my anxiety over ?getting burned? by my credit, which is an 8th house issue. The prospective job is represented by the Moon, Saturn, and the Sun. The Moon is in the first house, which shows the job coming to me?a good sign. The Sun is applying to a conjunction with Jupiter, also showing the job coming to me?another good sign. However, the Moon will quincunx Jupiter. How am I best to interpret this? I have read many conflicting assessments of how to use quincunxes in horaries. I believe that Ptolemy considered the quincunx between two significators to indicate basic incompatibility, which could suggest that this job is not a good fit for me, or perhaps that the prospective employer won?t like me. March and McEvers say that the quincunx means that something else needs to happen before the matter can come to its fulfillment?therefore the quincunx, in and of itself, provides neither an affirmative nor a negative answer to a question. The AC is in a fairly early degree, just less than 4 degrees of Pisces, so there is most definitely a suggestion that a lot more will happen here. Mars rules my second house of income, which is applying, by retrogradation, to a quincunx with Jupiter. Does this suggest that my salary requirements will not be acceptable to the potential employer? If I did end up getting this job, then I believe I would start in a contract-to-hire status initially, where I?d be working for the agency for the first 90 days, until the employer decided whether or not to hire me directly. So to me it is possible that the necessary adjustment indicated by the quincunx is the 90-day probationary period. Finally, the Part of Fortune is right on the sixth house cusp (that is, if you use Regiomontanus houses). To me this s a very good sign. After the Moon quincunxes Jupiter, it will trine the PoF. Does this trine have any interpretive or predicative value? I know some horary astrologers use only the conjunction or opposition to the PoF, but not other aspects. There was an article I read once by (I think) Marion March, in which she talks about an electional chart in which the moon?s final aspect was a trine to the PoF, which she considered benefic. Unfortunately, I haven?t been able to find the article again.

Yesterday, I asked, ?Will my poor credit affect my job chances?? The chart data is Oct. 15, 2005, 9:57am EDT, Jacksonville FL; moon at 26.34 Pisces. Here again, the quincunx is an issue. The moon's next and final aspect is a quincunx to Pisces. So, is this a VOC moon or not? If the moon is VOC, it could mean there?s nothing to worry about; nothing will transpire with respect to this issue. Mercury rules the 8th house of credit and is tenanting the 12th house. I see that as going two ways: the 12th house tends to put things out of sight, so it could mean that the employers wouldn?t look at my credit history. Moreover, Merc makes no aspect to the Sun (ruling 10th, signifying the employer), or Venus (ruling 7th, signifying the employment agency)?so neither of them may even be interested in looking at credit scores. However, the 12th also represents ?self-undoing?, so I am thinking that Mercury here could mean that my credit score might undermine me in some way; more over, Mercury is applying to an opposition with Mars, ruling the sixth house (the job). Might this mean that poor credit might cause some kind of separation between the job and me?

I?d appreciate any suggestions. These two horaries are to me so full of conflicting information; I am not sure how to sort through them. Thanks.

Hi,

I've put this chart into Solar Fire and it seems to be that something is wrong. You say 15th October and Moon is at 16.05 Pisces. The Moon was there on 14th October at the stated time so not sure which is correct - is it 14th October with Moon as stated, or is it 15th October when the Moon would have just gone into Aries?

Or, the third option - I am really losing the plot!

Don't want to get into looking too far into it just now until I have confirmation.

Thanks.

I think the mistake is the date in the first chart. The date should be Friday 14th, not Friday the 15th. This gives a Moon position of 16.05 Pisces. In the second chart, the details given show a chart with the Moon at 26.34 Pisces, which is correct.

Jupiter is also in an applying combustion to the Sun in both charts, which means that things may get worse before they get better. The Sun applying to Jupiter is not a good sign as it means Jupiter is severely weakened by the Sun and cannot be seen. In the first chart, Jupiter represents both you and the job. I am not sure where you get the job being represented by the Moon, Saturn and the Sun. In the second chart you mentioned the use of the sixth house for the job. The job is always 10th house and never the 6th. In the second chart, you are signified by Mars and Jupiter represents your finances. This is one of the difficulties of asking two questions that are essentially the same within a very close timeframe. The symbolism gets confused. I would stick to the one chart and try to understand it before asking another question.

So, is this a VOC moon or not? If the moon is VOC, it could mean there?s nothing to worry about; nothing will transpire with respect to this issue

The Moon is VOC in the second chart. I would not consider the quincunx as an aspect that prohibits the VOC situation. I really don't go with the 'nothing will come of it' interpretation that is so popular at the moment. Lilly said something quite different. He said that when the Moon is VOC business will hardly go handsomely forward - or something like that. This doesn't mean that you cannot get a positive outcome. It depends on the rest of the chart. But I have seen people note the VOC Moon and fail to read the rest of the chart because they interpret it as there is nothing to worry about at all.


Generally, the aspect of quincunx is not used in horary. However, it means 'turned away from'. If two significators are in quincunx it means that they do not even see each other and have no relationship.

It surprises me that a potential employer has the right to do a credit check.

Hello--

Thanks for your responses. Yes, the date should be Oct. 14th (Friday) for first chart and Oct. 15th (Saturday) for second chart. Sorry about that.

As for where I am getting the significators for the first chart: For questions about "job" or "employment," I always use the sixth house to represent the job itself, and the 10th house to represent the employer or boss. (I would use just the 10th if the question is about "career" or "vocation." This is definitely a question about employment in a specific job, not about career.) The sixth house in the first chart is ruled by the Moon, because Cancer is on the sixth house cusp; Leo is intercepted in the sixth, hence the Sun is a co-ruler of the sixth house. Saturn tenants the sixth, hence is also relevant regarding sixth house matters in this chart.

Hi Amethyst,

Regardless of whether this is a question about a career or a specific job, it is the 10th house ruler that is used, not the 6th house ruler. The 6th house, among other things, is used for your employees. I also wouldn't use the ruler of the intercepting house as a significator or co-ruler. I know some people advocate this but the way I see it, it is the sign on the cusp that is the most influential when determining the house.

Oh boy, this could be another "5th or 7th house" dilemma.

In Barbara Watter's book: "Horary Astrology and the Judgment of Events" she notes on page 64: The 6th house rules the querent's employment.."

She notes the 10th house "rules the querent's honor, reputation, status, and the wordly position or career that gains these things for him."

Lee Lehman said she "accepted uncritically the tendency to attribute so-called blue collar jobs to the 6th house and management jobs to the 10th,but she became increasingly unhappy about the results for so many so-called management jobs."

She further says, "In reality, there are two ways we experience the 10th house: as our boss, i.e, the person further up the hierarcy; or as honors and rewards. Thus a question about promotion may be legitimately 10th house because it represents a change in status, or honor, both 10th house matters."

Lehman uses as her criteria how much autonomy a person has in the new job to determine whether to use the 6th or 10th house. If the person is to be his or her own boss so to speak, it's a 10th house question, otherwise, it's a 6th, even if it's a so-called 'management position.' (From "The Martial Art of Horary Astrology.")

Oh boy, this could be another "5th or 7th house" dilemma.

I don't see it as a dilemma. One method is traditional astrology, one isn't.

Lee Lehman said she "accepted uncritically the tendency to attribute so-called blue collar jobs to the 6th house and management jobs to the 10th,but she became increasingly unhappy about the results for so many so-called management jobs."

There has never been a tendency to attribute blue collar jobs or any other sort of jobs to the 6th house in traditional astrology. It has always been 10th house. Lilly always used the 10th house regardless of the level. In CA he discusses the process to use if a parent asks about a suitable future for their child. He uses the 10th house and proceeds through all the possibilities depending on the sign. These possibilities include trade or service.

Lehman uses as her criteria how much autonomy a person has in the new job to determine whether to use the 6th or 10th house. If the person is to be his or her own boss so to speak, it's a 10th house question, otherwise, it's a 6th, even if it's a so-called 'management position.' (From "The Martial Art of Horary Astrology.")

Yes, I read this book and was very surprised at how far she has shifted from traditional astrology. I believe she still calls herself a traditional astrologer but her position on horary suggests otherwise. Everybody is entitled to their own method but using the 6th house for employment, like the 5th for partnerships is not traditional and you won't find any reference to these things in any of the traditional texts. Of course, if you are not particularly interested in maintaining the tradition and prefer to follow a modern adaptation of horary then I suppose you can use any house you like but these methods do not have centuries of proven history behind them in the same way that the traditional methods do. The whole symbolism is in danger of crumbling when you start shifting the foundations of a structure that relies on its interconnectedness. Like the 5th/7th house argument about relationships, what Lee is advocating can be very subjective. Where do you draw the line with autonomy and what is it anyway? Two people in the same job could feel very differently about how much autonomy they have. There is no basis for consistency when these sorts of decisions have to be made.

I appreciate what you are saying... but how do you explain it when astrologers such as Lee Lehman and the late Barbara Watters apparantly got accurate results from their less-than-traditional method of using the houses?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just asking from an empirical perspective.

I understand that using the 6th house for employment in the way Lehman does requires a certain subjectivity that using the 10th house alone as the job significator doesn't. Maybe a better way to delineate the two would be to reserve the 10th house for those who are in a professional capacity, such as an attorney, or physician, chief executive office of a corporation.

I think this is what Lee is referring to when she talks about autonomy: however, it's certainly possible for an attorney, for example, working in a large law firm as a new associate, would have little automony. So under Lehman's criteria, then the 6th house might be more appropriate for that person. But if the attorney were talking about taking a job as a partner in a law firm or striking out on her own, then the 10th house seems right.

But in the end, I have to go back to my original statement: the bottom line for me is what house placement consistently gives the more accurate results? In Barbara Watter's book, she delineates a chart on employment using the 6th house that's absolutely fascinating: she not only predicted the job would not work out, but she also saw the firm her client was considering working for was near bankruptcy. She also saw there had been talk of a merger or sale to another company.

All of this proved true. But actually, this was an event chart, set for the moment her client received a job offer: here, Watters used the first house for the man offering the job to her client, and the 7th for the client and the 6th from HIS 7th to signify the job itself.

I looked at this chart again using the 10th house (10th from his 7th) rather than the 6th from the 7th as Watters did, and in this case, Jupiter rules both his 1st and his 10th!

However, even in this case, there are no aspects between his ruler, Jupiter, and Mercury, ruler of the 1st, (the person offering the job.)

So in this case, you would have got the same answer no matter which house you used. But in another example chart Watter cast about employment, the significators of the 6th and 10th were venus and mercury, respectively, and the Moon was applying to a trine in the first instance and past it in the second, so I'd guess the answer would have been different in that case. Ironically, his significator, Jupiter, was in his first house and the only aspect the Moon in Cancer was going to make to his ruler was a quincunx. Turns out the man was very ill when the job was first offered to him and he had to regain his strength before he could actually begin working there.

Hello All:

March & McEvers also weigh in on this issue. On page 48 of their book on horary and electional astrology, they note: "Jobs and job-related questions are also sixth house concerns. Let me note here that if someone asks about taking or getting a job, the question is properly placed in the sixth house." The book also provides some examples of job-related horaries using the sixth house.

In my own case, I am much more comfortable using the sixth house for this question, because I do not consider the work that I do to earn money to be my "career" in any sense of the word. Although my previous jobs have been white collar work, I am nevertheless slaving away for someone else, performing tasks in service to someone else. The jobs have truly been "labor" to me and labor is a sixth house issue.

I appreciate everyone's input. Thanks.

Amethyst said:

In my own case, I am much more comfortable using the sixth house for this question, because I do not consider the work that I do to earn money to be my "career" in any sense of the word. Although my previous jobs have been white collar work, I am nevertheless slaving away for someone else, performing tasks in service to someone else. The jobs have truly been "labor" to me and labor is a sixth house issue.

The sixth house is traditionally used for slaves and servants - that is, your slaves and servants. It has nothing to do with you being one yourself. It doesn't matter how menial your job is, or how much you might hate it, or how much of a labour it is to you, it is still your employment and belongs in the tenth house.

While March and McEvers have contributed significantly to modern natal astrology, they do not follow the rules of traditional horary astrology.

Voyagergirl said:

but how do you explain it when astrologers such as Lee Lehman and the late Barbara Watters apparantly got accurate results from their less-than-traditional method of using the houses?

They got accurate results for the charts they published by following a convoluted method of reasoning. I could easily find a chart or two to explain any method I could make up. If I decided to use the 4th house for job related questions I don't think I would have too much trouble finding at least one chart that will give the answer I want. The problem is, once you change one rule, you often have to change others to make it fit. I went to a lecture once where the person giving the lecture was deliniating a chart. He started with the incorrect belief that you use the 7th house for anyone named (another March and McEvers idea). But for his chart to work he had to change other rules. He believed the old rules must have been wrong in the first place because they clearly didn't work. We saw this with John Frawley's explanation of a chart. His explanation of the chart did not fit with Lilly's so he decided Lilly was wrong. To make his (John's) answer fit, he had to go about it in a very circuitous route that did not fit with traditional principles. So it becomes a bit of a problem when you start changing rules to fit in with a non traditional way of doing things. I am not suggesting that these people have deliberately misled anyone or have fudged the results, just that getting the right results from the wrong method sometimes happens but you often have to break other rules along the way.

Voyagergirl said:

But in the end, I have to go back to my original statement: the bottom line for me is what house placement consistently gives the more accurate results?

The bottom line for me is whether it is supported by a long tradition. You can't go past hundreds of years of getting consistently accurate results from the 10th house with a tradition that has been tried and tested by hundreds of astrologers. I have not seen anything older than Watters' book that uses the 6th for job related questions. I'd be interested to hear if anyone knows of anything that predates this. Unfortunately, I do not currently have access to most of my books.

You said that you hadn't seen anything older than Barbara Watters' book that uses the 6th house instead of the 10th for employment questions: and I have to admit, her book was the first horary book I bought in the 1970s; meaning I don't have a book that's older than that either.

But another astrologer whose books I enjoy is Karen Hamaker-Zondag, whom I believe is from the Netherlands. Her book, "The Handbook of Horary Astrology," also places employment in the 6th.

But if you were asking a question about starting a business for example, she uses the 10th house to represent the business itself and the 11th to represent its funding. Of course, Hamaker-Zondag's book was published in 1993, so maybe you're on to something about this being a more modern phenomenon.

Anthony Louis' book, "Horary Astrology Plain and Simple" also states the 6th house rules: "servants and employees ... " and he reserves the 10th house for "government, vocation, career, status, the mother, kings, judges..."

So I can't believe that all these "modern" astrologers are simply twisting the rules to make the chart fit the situation. They seem to get consistent results using the 6th house in this way.

It seems to me maybe they're on to something: because in Lilly's day, what were the chances to actually be "employed" as we know it today?

It seems to me "employment" must have been extremely limited.

Anthony Louis' book, "Horary Astrology Plain and Simple" also states the 6th house rules: "servants and employees ... " and he reserves the 10th house for "government, vocation, career, status, the mother, kings, judges..."

When he says servants and employees he means the servants and employees of the person asking the question. If I was asking a question about my servants (I should be so lucky), I would use the 6th house. If I am asking about my position as an employee, I would use the 10th house. This is what Anthony Louis does.