Will the neighbor I thought might be threatening...

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Hi Everyone,

Since my neighbor has not left his apartment yet even though I overheard him saying about a week ago that he got evicted, I thought I would pose the following question and see if the forum members can help me with an interpretation: "Will the neighbor I thought might be threatening to my physical well-being move out of his apartment permanently within the next seven days?" I came up with the question at 8:30 p.m. in Sacramento, California, U.S.A., on 9/26/05. I am hoping so much that there is a definitive YES, because I don't like having to watch my back everytime I leave and come into my apartment.
Thanks for any and all input.

Respectfully, Peter

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Hi all,

Another reason I asked this question is that I noticed that venus (in both charts on this topic) will apply to an exact opposition to Mars on October 2, 2005. Seeing this, and this really displays my ignorance of horary craft rules, I was wondering if I should stay especially alert during the days around Oct 2 so that I (venus) do not literally run into my neighbor (mars)? Can the potential for this be deduced from the chart, or is my forecast-interpretation way out in left field?

Peter

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Hi Peter,

When I first read this question I thought that the answer should be in the first chart. Of course, having asked the questions at almost the same time within a couple of days of each other, the charts are virtually identical. The major differences are that the Moon is VOC and is separating from Venus and Mars in the later chart.

I don't want to confuse things by bringing in other factors but I am not convinced that we shouldn't be using the 3rd house here. You have identified him specifically as your neighbour. This is your known relationship with him. Anything else is conjecture at this stage. You are only suspicious of his behaviour. The question is an attempt to determine whether he is an enemy or not. The question was asking whether he is a threat. I can't see how we can already decide that he is a threat and put him on the 7th before we read the chart. It is only by reading the chart that we determine whether he is an enemy or not. Until then, he is a neighbour. Also, secret enemies are those who plot against you without your knowledge. They are hidden. If he is plotting against you and you have suspicion of this, he isn't being so secretive.

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I don't want to confuse things by bringing in other factors but I am not convinced that we shouldn't be using the 3rd house here. You have identified him specifically as your neighbour.
I'm not sure either, but let me state my reasoning. I'm open to correction on this because, as you state, he was clearly identified as a "neighbor."

The question posits a detrimental relationship between querent and quesited. No such relationship exists between lords 1 and 3; in fact they are trine by sign. Therefore I looked elsewhere. Now I'm less and less inclined as time goes by to separate "open" and "hidden" enemies. The Greeks didn't, but this was done from the middle ages on. Including the 12th we have three choices: 3rd (neighbor), 7th (open enemy), 12th (Hellenistic: enemy). Aries is intercepted in the 12th and Scorpio is on the 7th cusp, both Mars ruled. Now we're not practicing democracy here, so two of three doesn't necessarily win, but Mars is in mutual reception with Venus (the querent). Mars describes the quesited pretty well from what I can see. The querent says he was nearly threatened, a Mars action, and Mars is in the first (querent's house). So all of this leads me to Mars as quesited.

The 3rd house has Cancer on the cusp. Moon is in Cancer, strong and independent and applying to the Sun in Libra, lord 5: no connection. The Moon is in the face of Venus only, and Venus is in no dignities of the Moon. Venus is, however, in the fall of the Moon, but the ASC is the Moon's exaltation. So with no apparent two-way conection, between Moon and Venus, I went with the 7th house.

If we use the 12th house, although the neighbor is clearly not a secret enemy, we use Jupiter in Libra in the 6th house of injuries. Jupiter is in Venus' domicile, but there is no aspect or any indication of past or future activity.

One could argue that the Mars - Venus opposition is applying and therefore the thing under discussion has not happened yet, but will. The opposition indicates an unpleasant coming together, and since the opposition will take place near the ASC - DSC axis the quesited is in some danger. That might be valid, but the opposition will take place quite a distance from the ASC - DSC axis, and the inquiry refers to an extreme action, so I don't think so, but querent should watch his back. Evictions don't usually happen overnight, and a cunning assailant would wait until the last minute. Let's hope he is preoccupied with finding another place to live.

Tom

PS I just noticed Venus is on the antiscion of the part of fortune and Jupiter is on the antiscion of Uranus (separation). Fortunately for the querent, the quesited is leaving?

PPS Another thought. Mars is in the querent's house. Vandalism?

PPPS I'm having second thoughts. Mars is barely moving and about to make his station on Oct 1 at 23 Taurus 22. Venus will oppose Mars almost exactly at the same time. Since the 2000 US Presidential election, I take stations very seriously. Querent should be very careful. A stationary Mars could indicate inactivity, however

enemies

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enemies, real or supposed.

Peter, if you feel threatened you should consider staying away for the weekend. I mean the person might or might not vandalize your appartment, but it would be better than finding yourself ambushed. Have you considered moving? You obviously dont feel comfortable where you are.

How do your personal progressions look? Be safe.

Granny

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I don't want to confuse things by bringing in other factors but I am not convinced that we shouldn't be using the 3rd house here. You have identified him specifically as your neighbour.
I'm not sure either, but let me state my reasoning. I'm open to correction on this because, as you state, he was clearly identified as a "neighbor."
I haven't really looked at the chart a great deal but I have had a bit of a look. My reasoning isn't based on anything in the chart and I am not disagreeing with your analysis based on the significators you have used. The question for me is whether we really should be deciding on our significators after we have looked at the chart based on what we believe to be the answer. We should have a clear idea of how we will proceed before we start. The original question was something along the lines of 'Is my neighbour a threat to my physical well being?' Based on a couple of encounters that the querent felt uneasy about, he asked the question. He didn't know when he asked the question whether the neighbour was a threat or not. In that case, should we really be using the 7th house at this stage? This neighbour could be angry with everyone right now and suspect all neighbours or might just think it?s the landlord's fault etc or was trying to act tough in front of his mates or none of these things. We don't really know yet until we look at the chart. I can see why it is possible to choose the 7th house but I am not convinced. Lilly always put neighbours in the 3rd even when the question is about whether the neigbour is good or evil.
The question posits a detrimental relationship between querent and quesited. No such relationship exists between lords 1 and 3; in fact they are trine by sign. Therefore I looked elsewhere.
If there is nothing really between the significators of 1st and 3rd houses then it might mean that the quesited is not a threat, not that we have used the wrong house.
PPS Another thought. Mars is in the querent's house. Vandalism?
And, if we use 1st/7th, the querent is in the house of the quesited and is on the cusp.

Using Venus/Moon for the querent and Mars for the quesited, there is quite a bit of mutual reception going on between the significators. They are in each others rulership although they are each in their own detriment, we have Mars/Venus ? Ruler/Triplicity; Mars/Moon ? Exalt/Triplicity; Mars/Moon - Exalt/Terms: and Mars/Moon ? Trip/Trip. These are the ones I saw. There could be more. This appears to me like there would be a much stronger contact between the two people involved than just neighbours who don?t really have anything to do with each other.

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The question for me is whether we really should be deciding on our significators after we have looked at the chart based on what we believe to be the answer. <snip>
Lilly always put neighbours in the 3rd even when the question is about whether the neigbour is good or evil.

I think we do need to look at the chart to see what it is telling us. In "If Presbytery Shall Stand," for example (CA p 439), Lilly concentrates on Saturn in Taurus in 9, while Venus is the ruler of the 9th house (Presbytery). While Lilly doesn't ignore Venus' role, he does emphasize Saturn whom he describes using words like "severe," "sullen" and "strict:" good Saturn in Taurus words; good description of a conservative religious attitude.

Maybe I should try to tie in the Moon (Lord 3) with Mars, but I still lean towards what the chart tells us as opposed to rigid application of "the rules." Am I slipping into modern garb? Perish the thought.

We do this sort of thing with lost object charts. First we try lord 2. If that doesn't describe the object, we can use lord 4, or even the POF. We follow the chart and see where it leads. I was looking for a connection between querent and quesited, and the one I found was pretty descriptive. If we follow Lord 3, does it take us anywhere? Perhaps, but I didn't see it. Maybe someone else can find what I may have missed..

Best

Tom

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Tom:
.... but Mars is in mutual reception with Venus (the querent).

---------

One could argue that the Mars - Venus opposition is applying and therefore the thing under discussion has not happened yet, but will. The opposition indicates an unpleasant coming together, and since the opposition will take place near the ASC - DSC axis the quesited is in some danger.
I was wondering how you would explain the mutual reception between the querent and the quesited in light of their situation. They don't seem to be receptive to each other or willing to share favors. And the upcoming opposition, an unpleasant encounter - yes - but how would the mutual reception make it pan out? Does this show conduciveness on each side to 'work it out'?? Thank you.

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Sue writes:
If there is nothing really between the significators of 1st and 3rd houses then it might mean that the quesited is not a threat, not that we have used the wrong house.
If nothing at all had happened between them I would agree, but there was an incident where the neighbor was menacing and was restrained by his friends. Furthermore, the querent took direct action against the neigbor via the landlord preceding that. It is not surprising that the chart would reflect this. Since Lord 3 and lord 1 showed nothing one way or the other I was attracted to lords 1 and 7.

In other words, if the question was asked based on "gut feelings (I don't like the way he looks at me)" and no objective reality, then I would agree with your statement. I could still be wrong. I'm not 100% sure of myself on this one at all.

TS writes:
I was wondering how you would explain the mutual reception between the querent and the quesited in light of their situation. They don't seem to be receptive to each other or willing to share favors. And the upcoming opposition, an unpleasant encounter - yes - but how would the mutual reception make it pan out? Does this show conduciveness on each side to 'work it out'?? Thank you.
Each planet is in its detriment: Mars in Taurus, Venus in Scorpio if I recall. Neither has the strength or ability to work well individually despite being in each other's signs. I like the metaphor of two drunks helping each other home. There is some help, but not much. Mutual receptions like this show a connection but inability or unwillingness to affect the situation. I would look at it differently, if this were a love relationship chart. Recall I took this as an open enemies situation rather than neighbor. The fact that there had been some no so direct interaction and that lords one and 7 were in mr attracted me to the possibility. And that is really my point - that this is a possibility.

Tom

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If these two people were brothers and one felt threatened by the other, would you put the quesited on the 3rd or the 7th? If he was feeling threatened by his boss, would you put the quesited on the 10th or the 7th? I'm not trying to push a point here. I am genuinely curious as to how you would decide this. Would you wait until you read the chart and then decide which significators gave the greatest contact? I agree that rules shouldn't have to be rigidly adhered to but surely there needs to be some consistency, particularly in the use of houses. We can't use the 7th here and then next week have a similar situation and go with the 3rd because there is more contact between significators.
Each planet is in its detriment: Mars in Taurus, Venus in Scorpio if I recall. Neither has the strength or ability to work well individually despite being in each other's signs. I like the metaphor of two drunks helping each other home. There is some help, but not much. Mutual receptions like this show a connection but inability or unwillingness to affect the situation.
I agree that in mutual reception by rulership they are in detriment and are not of much benefit to each other. But what about all the other mutual reception in the chart, for example Mars/Moon - exaltation/triplicity? As I said, I haven't looked at this chart properly, but it seems like a lot of connection between them when we use the 1st/7th (which I know is your point). But, with that much, surely there must be more to it than a minor skirmish between neighbours.

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If these two people were brothers and one felt threatened by the other, would you put the quesited on the 3rd or the 7th? If he was feeling threatened by his boss, would you put the quesited on the 10th or the 7th?
I had a boss once that easily fit the open enemies defintion and depending on what he was doing he could have been the 7th. Let's put it this way: I don't know if he is dead or alive and I couldn't care less and I'm sure he couldn't care if I were dead or alive either. In the case in point it isn't as though these guys once were friends (if they were friends would they get the third or the 11th?). They weren't even acquaintences. They were neigbors in the strict meaning only: they shared the same builiding. Once the querent made his complaint and whatever action occurred that resulted in the quesited's eviction, they were open enemies at least in the quesited's mind. My point is that we are presented with two possibilities here and I looked to the chart to give me reason to choose one or the other. I don't see anything wrong with that. If I've misunderstood the situation, then I could very well be way off base here.

Lilly would have used the 3rd house in his text as that's the way the text is organized. There is a chapter on first house questions, second house third etc. It wouldn't do to confuse the students. But, Lilly used Saturn in the chart I cited previously and not the house ruler Venus because Saturn described the Presbetary so much better. However Saturn was at least in the 9th house in that case.

There is a chart in Geoffrey Cornelius The Moment of Astrology that does something like this, I seem to recall vaguely. I'd have to look that up. Don't hold me to it. But I don't think I'm the first person ever to do something like this.

Would you wait until you read the chart and then decide which significators gave the greatest contact?
If there are two possibilites, a lost object for instance, then we need to look and see what the chart is telling us. We don't use the 2nd, always the 2nd, and only the 2nd for lost objects no matter what. Here we had a near altercation. If both the 7th and 3rd showed that I would have gone with the 3rd. But Lord 3 showed me nothing. It doesn't describe the neighbor or his anger as best I can tell, or show anything that is going on at all. The house of open enemies does show this. Clearly something happened between these two and what happened was more in line with the way enemies behave rather than neighbors.

Where do we look when the querent asks: "Will my wife find out about my girlfriend?" They can't both be the 7th house. The chart has to tell us.

The mutual reception you mentioned is a possibility and frankly I missed it. I'd have to check things over again, but Moon in Cancer strong independent, etc does not describe the neighbor at all from what I can tell. I have a Cancer Moon and look how wonderful my disposition is all the time :lol: However the Moon's position in the radical 2nd (turned 12th of the neighbor) is interesting. I'll have to recheck.

Best

Tom

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From what has been said so far, I tend to think that Tom's selection of the 7th house instead of the 3rd seemed to me plausible.

The whole discussion, I believe, can be postulated as follows :

1) Choose that house which apparently has the most direct association with the situation at hand.

I want to call this a "literal approach" which may work most of the time but not necessarily all the time. For the example in this thread literal approach gives us the 3rd house simply because the concept of 'neighbor' has a most direct association with the 3rd house.

If we insist on it, I fear that we may at times lose the content, which then would lead us to poor or wrong conclusions.

2) Choose that house which you perceive to associate with the content and the intent (i.e essence) of the matter.In other words, use your discretion and decide considering how the querent perceives the quesited.

I want to call this an " essential approach" to mean that we refer to the essence of the query.

For the example at hand, the querent seems to perceive, or wants to be sure at least if his neighbor is a threat or enemy, thus the content is 'enemy', not neighbor.

After all, he could have asked the same question without mentioning that that guy was his neighbor.So neighborhood is a side topic and thus of secondary importance here.

That's why I am inclined to think that this question may be an 'open enemy' case.

One last word..Choosing the 7th house can be done before looking at the chart. I think we don't have to look to the chart to decide on this.

My 2 cents