31/08/05 12:48 BST (-1.00) Carlisle, England

Question: Will [my ex] be in my class at college this year?

I took the 9th house to be my class as it rules higher education, but I'm not completely sure of that.

13 Scorpio rises, giving 15 Cancer on the 9th cusp.

So I'm Mars, he's Venus, the class is the Moon. Mars and Venus are in non-beholding signs. The Moon beholds both but conjuncts Saturn before aspecting either of them so will not bring them together. Other possibilites for translation/collection of light etc are prohibited.

So, without Venus showing a clear link with the 9th house or its ruler, or even Mars, I judge No, he will not be in my class.

This is a case of judging nothing will happen on the fact that nothing is happening in the chart!

I think I've got this one right but any thoughts or comments would be most welcome.

Keren

Hi Keren,

I was just wondering what you mean by 'non beholding signs'. What are these?

Thanks,
Draco.

Hello
The chart seens radical, but I find it funny, although not unusual, that you are the mars and he the venus...
you are mars, in taurus, in exile, in the 7th house ! Not a good position for you ! You are in venus domicile and triplicity, while venus is sitting alone in his own house... venus has a lot of power over you and have none over him. Mars and venus are also almost perfectly inconjunct, making a 150 aspect between them, showing the bad feeling, treason and distrust.

You are sitting in the moon?s exaltation and face, as you are really looking forward for this studies, as the moon is in the 9th house, in Leo. Sun, the dispositor, is in the 10th (work, profession) and in mutual reception with mercury, so my guess is that maybe it have something with journalism, communication or words....

Venus has no reception with the moon, and don?t seem worried about it, although it is conjunct and in the terms of Jupiter (natural significator of higher education) it also rules 4th and 2nd houses, so it seems money and family problems are a major issue to him. It may also be noteful that the jupiter is the exaltation of the 9th house, but not a ruler.

I am not so sure Saturn can prevent the moon of translating the light of mars to venus

Yuzuru

Do you mean that Saturn will not prohibit as he is too weak (in detriment)?

Also, having taken another look at the chart, I see Saturn rules the third... which is the 9th from 7th... but I understand college to be one of those issues where we do not turn the chart (it's everyone's college, not just the querent/quesited's).

Venus applying to Jupiter, natural ruler of education, is significant. I hadn't thought of that. However, it still doesn't mean a "yes" as I know for sure that he'll definitely be at the same college as me, on the same course. The question is, will we be in the same class? There are four classes on the course so that's a 25% chance!

Hi Draco

This is from The Horary Textbook by John Frawley p98:

Any two planets in the same sign have an effect on each other, no matter how far apart they might be. Any two planets in signs that aspect each other have such an effect. They behold each other. Beholding plays only a tiny role in horary, but is of great significance in natal work - it is probably the most underrated concept in traditional astrology. It is like peripheral vision: two planets may be a long way apart by degree, but if they are in signs that behold each other (literally, that can see each other) it is as if they are in each other's field of peripheral vision. While this may not seem much, any car driver will know how aware we really are of what is at the edges of our visual field.

I believe Keren used the term non-beholding because Mars and Venus are 150 degrees apart - therefore quincunx, which is not an aspect used in traditional astrology, therefore they are in "non-beholding" signs. Also be aware that most of the explanation quoted above relates to nativities.

Hope this helps.

I am not so sure Saturn can prevent the moon of translating the light of mars to Venus.

The Moon is not translating light here. Translation only happens when the Moon, or any other planet has already separated from one, and is now applying to another. Since the Moon has just entered Leo, it has not made any aspects nor has it been conjunct to any planet yet. The Moon will first be conjunct Saturn, then square to Mars, then sextile Venus, sextile Jupiter and finally conjunct Mercury.

Saturn does not prohibit the Moon from connecting Mars to Venus. Lilly says

Prohibition is when two Planets that signifie the effecting or bringing to conclusion any thing demanded, are applying to an Aspect; and before they can come to a true Aspect, another Planet interposeth either his body or aspect, to that thereby the matter propounded is hindered and retarded.

An example of prohibition would be this. Suppose that your two significators in this chart were Venus and Jupiter. Venus is applying to be conjunct Jupiter and suppose that represents the bringing to conclusion of the thing demanded. But before they achieve perfection, the Moon beats Venus to Jupiter with her sextile aspect. That would be prohibition.

That isn?t to say that the Moon doesn?t have an obstacle in its path in this chart, it does, from Saturn. While the Moon is within orb of Saturn, its aspects to Venus and Jupiter are quite far off. So first you will meet an obstacle that blocks your path.

The unspoken but obvious question is whether there will be any romance between Mars and Venus. As was said above, they have no aspect to each other, Mars is weak while Venus is strong, and there is a large obstacle in the way in the form of Saturn. But also something that is very obvious is that there is a good chance that Venus, the guy, is already involved with someone else, namely the person here signified by Jupiter. Jupiter receives Venus by sign and they are about 1 ? ? away from being conjunct. All of this points to a no on the romance front.

Yuzuru said,

The chart seems radical, but I find it funny, although not unusual, that you are the Mars and he the Venus.

I?ve seen people have this reaction when the man is represented by Venus while the woman by Mars, and it?s this reaction that I have found to be funny. You?re making too much of the natural significations of Venus and Mars here. It doesn?t mean that he?s an effeminate man or anything like that. If anything it means that he?s an amorous man, someone who likes having a good time, while she by being Mars in detriment might mean that she?s being a bit too forward, and too active in this matter.

A few years ago a chart on here had the same significators but it was Venus, the guy, who was in detriment. I said that far from the man being effeminate because he was Venus in detriment, it more likely showed something very different. Imagine a man in a bar. He?s drunk, he?s loud, he?s got a beer in one hand and his other arm wrapped around some woman. This is classic macho behavior, but it?s also what you?d expect from someone represented from Venus in detriment. It?s pleasure gone amok.

In this chart in front of us now, Venus is in her own sign so the guy may have several women he?s interested in, but it?s because he likes a good time. Lilly described him as

prone to Venery, oft entangles in Love-matters

But also as

nothing Mistrustful, a right vertuous Man or Woman, oft had in some Jealousie, yet no cause for it.

In other words, like in this chart, it?s not that he?s cheating on Kerenhappuch, he?s not, because there is nothing between the two of them. He's just an attractive, fun-loving guy.

Please read the original post: this is not a romance horary!!! While I still have a soft spot for him (as shown by Lord 1 being right over in the 7th house), I'm not asking about the relationship. Although Mark is right, he is an attractive and fun-loving guy so his significator being Venus in Libra is completely apt (even without knowing his natal Moon is in Libra!) !

I follow Frawley on significators, i.e. me being Mars and him being Venus despite me being the female is irrelevant!

I still don't think I understand about Saturn not preventing the aspect of the Moon translating light between Mars and Venus. The Moon hits Saturn first. I understand this could be an event along the way, but I can't think what it might signify. I know that I will definitely see him around college. I just wanted to be prepared in case he was in my class. Perhaps the Moon translation shows I'll see him around but the Saturn conjunction along the way means he won't be in my class. Also, I think the position of Venus in the 11th, not the 9th, shows that I won't be in direct contact with him.

Thanks for the comments, it's helpful to see that there's more in the chart than I could see at first glance.

Okay, so I just re-read Mark's post and I'm feeling a little insulted by "the obvious question"! It might be true that a querent often asks a question other than the one they really want to know about, and as I said above, I admit to still having a major soft spot for him (the chart shows this pretty blatanly!), but I don't want to get back with him. This is my reason for asking: if he's in my class it just makes it that bit more difficult for me to make new friends.

so I just re-read Mark's post and I'm feeling a little insulted by "the obvious question"!

Please, don?t be insulted by the remark... is pretty difficult for an astrologer who isn?t seeing anyone in person to see a chart without making at least one preassumption...

I at lest don?t see romance, or the quest for romance in this chart... I see a passion not dealt entirely with, and a period of hard adjustment.

You?re making too much of the natural significations of Venus and Mars here.

I follow Frawley on significators, i.e. me being Mars and him being Venus despite me being the female is irrelevant!

You both didn?t understand my remark, as I admit, it wasn?t very clear, as I usually write long past my bedtime

I have done already some horary love charts, and in a lot of cases, the mars venus par comes to light, in every combination, so I wasn?t in any implying that he was a "feminine man"... I think this even a sexual bias !

But, in general, in myperception at least, charts like natural significators, either to show personality or phisical body, so it is always good to wonder why there is an inversion of the natural signification...

One possible reason is that the querent is with much angry of the ex husband, or that she has an marcial personality.
Another more interesting reason is that just in this combination you can have one person in his domicile and the other lacking the power. That?s what I found interesting in the chart, and the lack of considerations before judgement, as the whole thing seens already decided... you are in the class, he is in the class, and unless you are really decided to change classrooms, there is nothing else you can do.

I personally think that Saturn is the beginning of the classes, but is just a guess.

Yuzuru

I don't always make a big deal of Mars being the natural significator of men and Venus the natural significator of women, so when the female is Mars in a chart I don't even think about the supposed confusion.

I attended a talk by Kim Farnell in London last year and someone asked her about this issue, in particular, same sex relationships. Her response was that she always sees Mars as the persuer and Venus as the persued. Interesting. This, of course, only relates to charts specifically about a relationship.

It is an interesting topic, the same sex relationships, as we have to deal with the fact that somethings change, and were just prejudices, and somethings do have to stay as natural symbolism... and quite so often we don?t know if a remark is valid or not.

For example, Firmicus Maternus and others saw homossexuality coming from "venus disposited by mercury, mercury bad posited" giving the "monstuous desire of sleeping with men"

In the real astrology list, if I am not wrong, a little ago was a discussion if we should keep or not sun and venus, as they are used as natural significator of the man and the woman.

Yuzuru

Hi Sungem,

Just to thank you for your information.

I am now clear on what 'non beholding' signs are.