Which houses/significators?

1
Hello,

I?m not sure of the houses I should consider in the following cases:

1. I finally bought my laptop. Now my horary question will be:
--Will it be a "good machine", will I have technical/hardware problems with it and will I have to fight with the support dpt (again)?--

For the support dpt, 7th.
For the laptop itself, since it?s more its technical qualities which interest me, and not its financial value, I?m not sure I should choose the 2nd. Maybe the 6th? It?s not a domestic appliance per se, but it certainly "eases day to day chores and laborious tasks".
Also the 10th, because it?s a professional tool, or the 3rd (environment in which we live and work)?


2. A relationship question on behalf of a friend : the 11th for her and the 5th (7th from 11th) for her partner?


3. For a friend who?d like to work in astrology, not as an astrologer, but maybe as a translator specialized in this discipline. She wants to ask:
--Would I be successful in this career, would I make a decent living?"--
The 1st for her, and for the quesited object, we were thinking the 9th (astrology), 10th (career) and 11th ("salary")?


Thanks in advance for your help!


KitKat

PS-Would it be a problem if I posted the charts here after having tried to decrypt them so as to know if my reasoning is valid?

2
Hi Kitkat,

1. As far as your laptop is concerned, and wanting to know if it will be a 'good machine' which implies that you are concerned as to whether it will work properly, reliably and efficiently and do everything that it should, then you should look to the 6th cusp. This is because you a wanting to how the machine will work for you, whether or not it will serve you well. You are concerned about technical/hardware problems, so it is the workings of the machine that are on the agenda. You want to know how healthy the machine will be. All these highlighted points are 6th house concerns. So look to the 6th cusp.
It would also be worth looking to the 2nd cusp anyway, as it is after all, a personal possession and resource, and see how the rulers of these cusps resonate.

2. For the relationship question on behalf of a friend, what you have suggested sounds good to me.

3. For the friend who'd like to work in astrology and wants to know whether she would make a decent living. Then why not look to all three cusp rulers for 9th=astrology, 10th=career, 11th=salary. Primarily look to the 10th, but consider all three if you consider them important and see how the rulers interact in the chart. Maybe the chart shows 'astrology' dignified but 'career' and 'salary' poorly placed, so maybe the querent should look elsewhere for a career involving astrology. Perhaps 'salary' is exalted but 'career' and 'astrology' in bad shape, hence the money is good but there is little sense of achievement. I would have a look at all three cusps, consider the dignity of each and how they interact with each other, and they how they relate to the significator. You may find two cusps ruled by the same planet. Consider it all and create your interpretation. Just be creative! You will find your answers if you trust your intuitions.

Regards,
Draco :)

3
KitKat,

For the laptop I would use the 2nd house. It's your possession clear and simple. I wouldn't use the 6th house at all for an inanimate possession. It doesn't work for you. Only people can work for you. It can't be either healthy or sick because it's not alive. To see if it functions you'd look at the strength or weakness of the ruling planet. For the tech support staff I would use the 6th house. They work for you , or they are supposed to at least.

The 7th house in this case would be the people you bought it from. Though the tech support people and the sales people may work for the same company, they are in your life in very different ways. With the sales department you make a trade, a deal and that is the 7th house, the house of partners.
Mark F

4
Just be creative! You will find your answers if you trust your intuitions.
I have to be careful in this area as I tend to get carried away and confuse intuitions with pure imagination :D. Wishful thinking can get in the way too :-?

Thanks for your answer, Draco!

5
Yes, learn the basic inside and out first. Eat. drink and sleep it. A good exercise is to look around at the world around you and try to place what you see into the appropriate house or associate with a planet. Remember that hardly anything is associated with just one planet. And orange is mostly Jupiter but all fruit partake some of Venus. The houses are not like that though. Things are in one house or another. Your house cat? 6th house. Try to figure out what each house means at the abstract level. If you look at what is under each one, it seems awfully confusing at first, but at their core they all have one thing in common. Get a copy of Deb's book. It's short but it's the best guide to the houses ever, in English at least. You shouldn't use intuition, that's just asking for trouble. You have to develop your technique based on a sound foundation . Read the 'old masters' books. Gadbury and Culpepper are great too. And Bonatti is the best from the little I have read him. His major work is something like 900 pages long but isn't all available in English. I really wish someone would translate him from Latin.
Mark F

6
I wouldn't use the 6th house at all for an inanimate possession. It doesn't work for you.


Oh, I see. I was tempted by the 6th because I saw in its description that it has "some relevance to domestic appliances that are purchased to ease day to day chores and laborious tasks". It seemed appropriate for a computer used for daily work and whose role is precisely to save its owner repetitive and laborious tasks.
For the tech support staff I would use the 6th house. They work for you , or they are supposed to at least.
"supposed to" is the operative word here :D
More seriously: I hadn't thought of separating the support staff from the sales people. I saw the company as a whole (employer, support, sales). But you are right, it makes sense. But wouldn't the turned 6th from the 7th describe them better then? After all, they work first and foremost for their employer - what they do for the end users depends on their employer's guidelines.
I admit that opinion may come from my personal experience with support staff. I really can't see them as working for me. :?


I took a few minutes to draw the chart and just gave it a quick look:
7th in Sag., therefore Jupiter for the employer.
The radical 6th is in Libra, Venus, and intercepts Scorpio.
Jupiter/Venus/South Node are conjunct in the 5th.
The 12th is in Aries (Mars) and intercepts Taurus.
Mars is in the 12th.

The conjunction of Jupiter and Venus does appear to confirm your view, but doesn't the intercepted signs point to some strong interconnection? I don't know if the interceptions are significative in horary.

Thanks for your answer, Mark!

7
Thanks for responding Kitkat,

There is a fine line between intuition and imagination. Imagination is essential. Astrology is an art and a science, some are more intuitive some are more technical, but essentially, we are all more or less balanced between the two.

I still say the 6th, if you are looking to the workings of the machine and how well it will serve you. Look to the 2nd if it is it's value as a personal resource, which is of particular interest. Look to the rulers of both if you like, and pay attention to the resonances between them to give a broader view.

Mark said:
For the laptop I would use the 2nd house. It's your possession clear and simple. I wouldn't use the 6th house at all for an inanimate possession. It doesn't work for you. Only people can work for you. It can't be either healthy or sick because it's not alive.
This is not true, because the workings of a machine can be compared to the workings of the body, and therefore succumb to varying states of health and sickness. Since we are regarding the horary from the perspective of the machine and how well it will function, operate and work, then why not look to the 6th house?
A bad heart and a faulty watch are both 6th house. They are both 'dodgy tickers', implying that they are both working ineffectively, whether flesh or machine, and therefore both in bad health. If we are looking at the chart egocentrically, then we are the 1st cusp ruler and the laptop is the 2nd cusp ruler, as we are only concerned about our relationship with the laptop as a material resource. This of course yields valuable insights anyway. However, if we are to get outside our own head, and into the 'mind' of the laptop, then it is the 1st cusp ruler, and the 6th its inherent predelictions to a state of efficient or faulty functionings, as parralel to the health or sickness of the body to the 6th in a 'human' chart.

Mark says that 'An orange is mostly Jupiter...', but I have always considered the orange to be a particularly solar fruit.
It's the, ''you say, 'tomayto' and I say, 'tomarto' scenario. I definately agree with, ''hardly anything is associated with just one planet.''. Absolutely. Anything and everything will have some symbolic resonance with every planetary archetype to some extent, but usually, when perceiving things as groups and from a greater distance, one planetary resonance will stand out, such as the resonance of all fruits with Venus, which few would deny.
It seems the more distantly we look at things, such as 'fruits' rather than individual pieces of fruit, the more broad and generalised the archetype seems to become.

The difference in perception between Mark's jupiterian orange and my solar orange, does not mean that one is 'right' and one is 'wrong'. The difference in planetary attribution for this object tells us something about the observer, but nothing about the orange itself, which is always a piece of fruit, whoever is looking at it, but the closer we look the more diverse our associations become. It seems the more closely we examine things, the more subjective yet precise our interpretation becomes. Thus in general, fruits, as a group, are Venusian, in which there would be little debate. If though, we are to take an orange or a pineapple and elect correspondences of planets, there would be a difference in opinion. If looking even more closely, we were to try to bring an astrological association to a particular feature of a given fruit, such as the fragrance or texture of an orange, then the diversity of planetary association would be even greater still.

Therefore concerning the issue of 'laptops' in general, then this is a 2nd cusp issue, as it is a possesion and personal resource, a thing of value. This is the general association. Yet your question involved looking more deeply into the nature of the way in which this object is to function, so the closer you look, the more subjective, precise, and therefore important your question/answer becomes. Therefore if you feel right about the 2nd house, here you will find the answers that resonate with you in that chart. If you feel right about the 6th, you will find the answers which resonate with your energies here. It's just a difference in perspective. Perhaps, you feel right about the 3rd, then this is significant. Yet, always look to the most general cusp association particularly. In this case the 2nd for 'laptop', but as for its particulars, it's your own choice, depending on what you're are looking for and how you're looking at it.
Last edited by Draco on Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

8
About which planet rules oranges, until a week ago I would have thought that since an orange looks like the Sun, it would be ruled by the Sun and the same for peaches. But I?ve been reading Marcilio Ficino?s Three Books on Life and he has widened my perspective. He gives the best explanation for how Jupiter relates to the Sun, and why it governs what it does. I?ll leave it up to him to supply the words. The only explanation needed is that when he talks about ?receives?, he does not mean in the astrological sense, he means when you eat it. This book is a miracle. He relates what could be an academic discussion of what planet rules what plant to the art of healing and living a healthy life. It?s all yours, Marcilio?.
But to return to Jupiter, his taste and odor are, as it were, like that found in a golden peach, in a golden pear, or in an orange, and in a rather light malmsey wine and in a light vernage wine; such a taste and odor as in green ginger or in cinnamon, sweet fennel, or doronicum, if these things are tasted seasoned with plenty of sugar; for the last four, and fresh nutmeg, if they are alone, are solar instead.
Page 297, lines in Latin 129 - 134

And then all things which are odoriferous and aromatic, insofar as they bear a pleasant smell, pertain as much to Jupiter, Venus and Mercury as to the Sun; although among these the sharper things pertain to the Sun; the duller rather to Venus and Mercury; the properly tempered in smell, taste, sound, sight, and touch, to Jupiter.
Page 297, lines in Latin 136-139

A certain sweetness of taste and pleasing quality, therefore is common to all these planets. (The Sun, Jupiter, Venus and Mercury). If the sweetness is, as it were, watery and at the same time rich, it pertains more to Venus. If it is, as it were, insipid and somewhat harsh, it pertains rather to Mercury.
Page 295, lines in Latin 103-105

If the sweetness is palpable and subtle [as opposed to insipid and harsh], and it has a somewhat astringent and sharp taste, it is properly judged to be Jovial.
Page 295, lines in Latin 107-108

This is in truth the substance and sweetness particular to Jupiter, which is above all truly useful for creating and restoring the spirit.
Page 295, lines in Latin 114-116
Book III, Chapter XI
Therefore, in order that we may at one time embrace three Graces (Venus, Jupiter and the Sun) in one, we at last flee to Jupiter, who is the mediator between the Sun and Venus by nature and effect. For he is very temperate in quality, giving whatever is hoped for from Venus or the Sun in way of his own, more magnificently and honorably than Venus, more temperately than the Sun; and he is in everything most like human nature.
Page 263, lines in Latin 16-21
Book III, Chapter V
And in quality and effect he [Jupiter] is the mediator between the Sun and Venus, and likewise between the Sun and the Moon, and therefore he embraces all things. We consider it criminal to and dangerous to neglect the Sun, the Lord of heaven himself, unless perhaps you could say that he who has Jupiter, also already has in him the Sun, and that there the Sun is best tempered for human being.
Page 267, lines in Latin 42-47

That Jupiter is a second Sun no one will deny.
Page 267, line in Latin 49-50

For no star supports and strengthens the natural forces within us ? indeed all the forces ? more than does Jupiter, nor does any star offer more or more prosperous things. And to receive him is beneficial in all circumstances, but to receive the Sun is perhaps not in all circumstances safe. For Jupiter is always beneficial, the Sun often seems to harm? Therefore only Jupiter is called the ?helping father?
Page 269, lines in Latin 62-67

For just as licorice and rose-oil make colder things warm and hotter things cool, and the same goes for wine (which in addition moistens the dry and dries the moist), so Jupiter is similar to human heat, like wine, rose-oil, camomile, and licorice.
Page 269, lines in Latin 75-79

The rays of Venus and the Moon, as they are rather moist, need some tempering factor, just as the rays of the Sun, being rather hot, demand the tempering of something rather moist. But the rays of Jupiter need no tempering. For what else is Jupiter but a Sun tempered from the start especially for the welfare of human things? What else is he but a Moon and a Venus made, however, more hot and powerful?
Page 271, lines in Latin 90-95
Book III, Chapter VI
Last edited by MarkF on Tue Aug 30, 2005 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mark F

9
Mark,

I am not sure which translation of Ficino you are quoting from. I presume it is the Kaske/Clarke translation. It is a bit difficult when you have added a series of sentences that don't flow on from one another. It makes it confusing to read. And there seems to be sentences that are not in my copy or are different. But, just curious to know what translation it is. I know it is not the Boer translation.

I probably wouldn?t be too quick to hold Ficino up as an expert in traditional astrology. I have a great deal of respect for him and his works. I like ?Three Books on Life? (De Vita) very much. I have read both the Kaske/Clarke edition and the Boer edition and I would strongly recommend that anyone avoids the Boer edition and heads straight for the Kaske/Clarke edition. It is more expensive but worth every cent. The Boer edition is no comparison at all. Anyway, his astrology is interesting but not always accurate and he sometimes departed from tradition without any good reason. One thing I find interesting was his ability to twist an argument to suit his own purposes. For example, he knowingly used the same argument to support astrology that Plotinus used against astrology. It is definitely worth reading but I wouldn?t throw out any prior knowledge and substitute it with what you learned from Ficino without a bit of further investigation. Although he wrote about astrology and obviously practiced it at times, his real passions lay elsewhere.

10
Thankyou for your responses.

Mark, I must admit that I found your Ficino quotations are a little confusing and I couldn't understand how it related to my point, in so far as an argument against it.

I was disappointed to be informed:
It is a bit difficult when you have added a series of sentences that don't flow on from one another. It makes it confusing to read. And there seems to be sentences that are not in my copy or are different.
The quotes I read however, seemed to confirm my view, that the closer we look at things the more diverse our subjective correspondences become, as demonstrated by Ficino in the extracts.

11
I swear these quotes were exactly transcribed from the Kaske edition. I can go back and put in page numbers and line numbers too. I did move some text around from their original places a bit. I'm sorry if some couldn't understand them. I included elipses where I omitted some sentences but that is standard when quoting something.

What Ficino is saying is that as far as fruit goes, that anything that is sweet can be either the Sun, Jupiter, Mercury, or Venus. But it's the quality of the sweetness that determines which it is most aligned with. If the taste is a bit biting, like say a lemon, it would be Solar. If it is heavily sweet, what we might today call a sacharine taste, it's Venus. But things like peaches, plums, oranges belong to Jupiter, because Jupiter is moderate in all things. I went on to include what he had to say abouy Jupiter because I thought it was worth including. He places Jupiter as the thing whose level of heat and moisture are most closely matched to human life. The Sun and things solar are too hot, Venus and things Veneral are too moist and not warm enough. But Jupiter's heat and moisture level are always right for a healthy person. That's what he means when he says that Jupiter is like a second Sun, but one that more closely matches our human temperament.

I don't see what is so wrong with any of this from a traditional view. Lilly pretty much says the same thing when comparing the taste of something Venereal with other things. It's like the Three Bears and the porridge that is either too hot or too cold. Venus and the Moon are too moist and too cool, the Sun is too hot and dry, but Jovial things have the right amount of heat and moisture. Their taste is mild, complex and subtle. In fact that's how you can tell whether something is Jovial or not by whether it's taste is subtle or not.

And Draco, I didn't put these up there to condradict you so much as to show what standard to use when assessing what the nature of something is. If the Solar things are sharp like the Sun, then peaches and oranges wouldn't be Solar. But certainly an orange has more of that zing to it than a plum, so perhaps it has more of the Sun in it, but less than a lemon. What I found interesting about the one quote, where he says that ginger and some other spices were essentially Solar, but when sugar is added to them they become Jovial is exactly what you are saying, that these things are somewhat fluid. Overall he recommends a diet that is as tempered to Jupiter as far as heat and moisture are concerned.

And while you can perhaps make an arguement against what Ficino may have said someplace else in his book, I dont' think you can with what I quoted hear. In fact the editors of this translation give copious notes that say that what Ficino is presenting in these chapters is the standard version of something called "school medicine."

You may have to read the quotes several times to see what he's saying, but I think he's clear and well reasoned.
Mark F

12
Mark, thankyou for clarifying.

I now understand what you mean about the attribution of all sweet things to the Sun, Jupiter, Mercury or Venus. Yet it is the type of sweetness each possesses, that makes for more appropriate correspondence to one planet or another. So a more sharp and sour sweetness is Solar, more sacharine, Venus. The more balanced and wholesome a sweetness then this is Jupiter. This is an interesting perspective, but I still say the more closely we are looking at an object the more subjective our opinions become as to what attribution is appropriate. So the standards Ficino applies to the sorting of fruits and flavours into categoric correspondences, while logical and well thought out and admittedly very inspiring, is his own opinion. I am not at all seeking to refute his idea, I am indeed, taking the information on board, but not at the expense of keeping an open mind and trusting my own intuitions. This is what I mean about the more closely we look at things. For example, we can take fruits, flowers or women as a gender, and give each of these groups to the influence of Venus in general, because we are grouping things together and looking more distantly and generally, which is why there is little room for debate about this correpondence. However, if we are to take individual fruits or flowers or individual women, our opinions will begin to differ as to which correspondence is more appropriate due to differences in the way that particular object resonates with that particular psyche. If we are to look more closely at particular features or aspects of that given object, then there will be even more discrepancy between our perceptions. The more we individualise things the more our individuality influences the way in which we resonate with that given thing, and consequently this influences our judgement. This is not wrong, though. It is just that when seeing things in general, there is more or less a set standard for us all, but the more specifically we are looking into something and thus the more personal that perspective becomes, the more that standard becomes flexible and there is greater room for subjectivity.

This is why, if we are seeking as to how our new laptop is going to work for us, you look to the 2nd, whereas I look to the 6th. Whos right, whos wrong? We are both right. Right for ourselves if not for each other, but if it's what is right for ourselves then that is what counts, in regards to finding our answer. In the 2nd, you will find the answers that resonate with your psyche, and in the 6th, I will find the answer that best resonates with mine. It is just a difference in perspective and perception. Regardless of where you look, if this is the place which your mind led you to, then this is where you'll find your most appropriate answer. However, this is just because we are looking into the specifics of how the laptop is to function. As has been said, the more closely and personally we are looking, the more subjective the nature of our question/answer. So you look to the 2nd, to see into the nature of the laptop as a material resource. I look to the 6th, as I am more interested as to how it will serve me. Either way, we will both reach a conclusion, but we will reach the conclusion which best befits our way of thinking.

Thus, to me, banana, coconut, vanilla pods and cream are all distinctly Lunar fragrances and flavours. You may agree or disagree. I cannot help but intuitively associate these with the Moon, for no other reason than this is the association that best and most immediately resonates with my intuition. Therefore, this is the correct correspondence for me. As for ginger, although sweet, it does partake some of the quality of Mars, for its heat and spice, such as pepper or mustard, which are also somewhat Martial.

I do understand what you mean then, about an orange being Jupiterian in this sense, but only because another imaginative man sat one day with quill in hand and told us that it was. It does not mean that his opinion should be taken as gospel, however respectible he was. Although, I did find his information appealing, insightful and definately worth consideration. I am not trying to refute tradition, but I cannot sacrifice my intuition, which has demonstrated its usefulness to me too many times, so I am widely open minded.

Most areas of enquiry would leave no room for debate as to which zodiacal/planetary correspondence best fits. Of course, we require this standard. So if we are looking to career, this is definately 10th cusp. If we are to look more at the specifics of this career, such as working with children, then most of us would look to the 5th. Looking deeper still, then perhaps this involves working with children with behavioural difficulties. Perhaps this is 6th house, as this is a disorder, or perhaps the 12th, because the nature of the sickness is 'inner' and psychological. So our correspondences are becoming more diverse the closer we look. There may be other houses we could look to depending upon the specifics of the behavioural problem, our associations becoming more diverse still. So the deeper we look the more subjective and differentiated our perspective comes to be. Yet, we will always find the answer which is right according to the intuitions of the investigator, provided the investigator is certain in his reasoning. Should his reasoning differ to that of another, then this is fine, he is just taking an alternative route for an answer, the answer which is best for him, as announced by a keen intuitive resonance.

I do appreciate you taking the time to send me the quotes, Mark. It is just that as it was inferred that the text was questionable, I declined to respond properly until you had a chance to reply to this. I do agree that Ficino's idea is clear and well reasoned, but it doesn't mean his reasoning is astrological law. We are allowed to be as imaginative as Ficino. I am intrigued, however, and I will seek out the 'Three Books on Life'.

Regards,
Draco