What Can I Discover in Astrology? Help With Horary.

1
On the 5th of August, 2005 @ 3:48 BST, St.Annes 3w03/53n45, England, I asked the question, 'What can I discover in astrology?'.
This is because I have come to an intermediate stage in my astrological studies, and since Uranus hit my ascendant at Pisces 10, when I acquired, access to the internet, I have been able to pursue astrological knowledge more thoroughly than ever before. As I have reached a new stage of learning, I am curious to know what the ultimate culmination will be to my lifelong astrological interest. I would like to know more about the nature of what is to be revealed to me as I learn more. In short, what will I discover in astrology?

I have noticed that it would seem to be the custom of this forum to use equal houses in the horaries. Therefore, this is the system I have used in this chart.

The ascendant rises @ Cancer 23, so it is not too early or late to ask my question. Interestingly, the Moon, significator, is @ Leo 12 in cazimi. The Moon, otherwise peregrine here, if I am correct, is given dignity by its embrace in the heart of the Sun, which is exalted in Leo. The Sun's exaltation means it operates in the enviroment which best suits its needs for enlightenment and creative expression. The Moons conjunction here shows that I have an aptitude for astrology, it illustrates the union of heart and mind, left brain and right brain and the axiom, 'as above, so below'. In the 1st house, this conjunction shows that I have the neccesary balance of polarity between logic and intuition to pursue astrology as both an art and as a science. The cazimi significator in the first house shows that the discoveries I can make in astrology will be about the nature of my own psyche, a bridge between the concious and the unconcious, the waking life and the dream-time. Through tuning into synchronicity, I can bring light into darkness, bring the hitherto unknown or unseen to concious comprehension. The Moon cazimi may reveal I can expect the bringing of illumination, so the chart speaks of revelation itself, so there is such a great deal to discover, and in the 1st, particularly about the self.
The Sun is the ruler of the 2nd would symbolise gold. Gold would in turn symbolise success and victory, therefore it shows I have potential talent in this area. It is also treasure, showing what a valuable resource I will discover astrology to be. It might also mean that perhaps at some point I may find I am able to profit from astrology. This is further emphasised because the Moons last aspect is to the MC in Pisces. As both the Sun and MC are emphasised by the lunar significator, am I to discover my life path in astrology and become an professional astrologer?
I would appreciate anyones insights on this chart. Can anyone tell me about a cazimi Moon significator? I was really glad to see this sign in the chart. I felt it was a blessing.

Draco :)
Last edited by Draco on Sun Aug 28, 2005 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Hmmm, Draco, this is a too "new age" question for me. If the question were "will I ever become a professional astrologer" I would have my 2 cents, but I don?t touch in "spiritual" questioning because I think there is no right answer to these, so everyone is just guessing.

But I want to rectify a little mistake... in horary we usually use the system of Regiomontanus to draw the houses, it was the prefered of Lilly, and most horary astrologer use this system.

The equal houses system is prefered by natal astrologers who rely upon greek system or by sideral hyndu astrologers (I believe they use equal houses for natal, horary and mundane)

Yuzuru

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Thanks for your response Yuzuru,
I am now aware that it is the regiomontanus system which is customarily used. I had thought equal because this is how it appears, and I am not familiar with the regiomontanus system as this is never one I have experimented with. I have considered Placidus, Porphyry and Equal house systems. Personally I have a liking for the Porphyry, but I am at a stage where I am open the use of various systems. Thankyou for informing me that it is usually the Regiomontanus houses used in horary. I would prefer to use the system most others are using for the time being. I had been using Placidus houses on another forum, to give horary readings and I got lots of positive feedback, which is encouraging. Personally, I think different house systems tell us different things in different ways, but they all reflect the same story and the same 'whole' in general. I will be using Regiomontanus from now on.
My question, 'What can I discover in astrology?', I must admit does sound a bit 'new age', but I was trying to encapsulate, in a short question, what the ultimate culmination of my astrological studies will eventually be, and I suppose this would encompass becoming a professional astrologer one day. When I asked the question I was wondering whether or not I would discover my calling, and the outcome seemed to suggest I will. Moon significator cazimi/Leo/1st. MLA to MC.
I would like to know more about the occurance of a cazimi significator in the horary. What does this mean to you?
Last edited by Draco on Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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I agree that this is somewhat of a ?new age? question, but I think it?s a valid concern, and worth looking into.

First thing ? this chart is for 3:48 AM, not PM.

But my first response would be that before you ask a question you have to have an understanding of what houses are involved with your question. Since you asked about what can you learn, I?d look quite carefully at the 9th house, which has to do with religion, knowledge and anything that has to do with widening your understanding. Here the 9th house ruler is Saturn, which is in pretty bad shape. It?s in its detriment, but it does have some dignity through being in its own term and face. Saturn is disposited by the Sun and is positioned in the 1st house. So knowledge is on your mind, but it?s blocked, and limited.

The Moon is your ASC ruler and is cazimi, which makes it very powerful. It is a form of accidental dignity, not essential. I would certainly see this is an encouraging sign to continue your studies in astrology. Another encouraging sign is the Part of Fortune is on the ASC. The overall pattern of this chart is the importance of the Sun. You have three planets received by the Sun, which is in his own sign. The Sun signifies truth, life, and dominion and is located in the 3rd house. The Sun also rules the 3rd house cusp. The 3rd house is opposite the 9th house, so they are linked through opposition. Remember above I said to first look at the 9th house? In the sense of this question, I?d emphasize these particular qualities of the 3rd house/9th house axis. If the 9th house is wider knowledge, then the 3rd house is study, the reading and learning that get you there. Think of it this way, if the 9th house is the university, the 3rd house is elementary school. You can?t have advanced knowledge without reading and pondering on the things you?ve read. I am having trouble putting this into words, but I think what this chart is telling you is to slow down a bit, to study and read more, and that after you?ve done that, the higher knowledge will come to you. Your 9th house ruler, the knowledge you want is in kind of bad shape, but it?s in the ASC so the subject is on your mind. The 3rd house (reading, the study that will lead you to the knowledge) is strongly emphasized by its ruler, the Sun being the strongest planet in the chart and dispositing so many other planets, including Saturn. To put it directly, the knowledge you ask for (9th house ruler Saturn, disposited by the Sun) is dependent on more bare bones kind of studying (3rd house ruler Sun). But you have a lot of encouraging signs that this will pay off ? cazimi Moon, Part of Fortune conjunct the ASC.

I?ll pick up on what Yuzuru said, and that is to learn to avoid the vague generalizations of modern astrology, forget about things like enlightenment, polarities of logic and intuition, the waking life and the dream time, until you have mastered the basic techniques of traditional astrology. Traditional astrology is not an easy subject. You have to really apply yourself, start with the basics ? the houses, planets, dignity and debility, and above all read, read, read. Start with Lilly?s Christian Astrology, but don?t limit yourself just to that. And please stay away from anything from a modern point of view. Stick with the traditional, you?ll be glad you did in years to come. John Frawley?s books are a great start. But overall, what I think this chart is telling you is to be encouraged, but to start at the beginning and not to go chasing after interesting but illusory ideas so soon. So put aside thoughts about gold, synchronicity, light and darkness. These are more or less modern concepts, and the thing that I object to about them, is they are enticing but vague and empty concepts. And they mislead people into thinking that astrology is easy and vague, when it is neither. You should concentrate on doing lots of charts, and this forum is a great place to get lots of other people?s chart to work on. No one can learn astrology just by doing their own charts. I?ve said this before, but if you are just interested in your own charts, in your own life, then it?s better to pay a professional to interpret them for you. If you have a real interest in the subject above and beyond your own life and charts, then you have to do many charts. When you do other people?s charts, stay focused on being as concrete and specific as possible. And the most risky thing to do is to learn to have the confidence to make predictions involving other people?s charts. It?s one thing to give vague advice, but it?s another to give them specific things that will happen to them, or to tell them something that?s happened to them in the past that they didn?t tell you about.

About your idea of a career in astrology, you?d find this by looking at the 10th house and it?s ruler. I wouldn?t make anything out of the Moon?s last aspect being to the cusp of the 10th house. For one thing, I don?t include an aspect to a cusp as an event in the same way that an aspect or conjunction to a planet. The Moon?s last event in this chart is its conjunction with Mercury. And more importantly, I wouldn?t rely on that idea that is floating around out there that the Moon?s last aspect in and of itself is so important. That is a modern technique, and I?ve never seen it mentioned in anything written prior to 1700. So I?d set aside that idea.

Your 10th house ruler is Jupiter. It?s located in the 4th house. Though angular, I?ve come to see the 4th house as often showing something that you?re very down about. The 4th house is the lowest point on a chart, and to put it bluntly, you feel your career is in the dumps. Jupiter is disposited by Venus, which is in the 3rd house. So that brings up that whole 3rd house/9th house axis again. If you want a career in astrology then read more (3rd house = reading). Jupiter and Mercury are in mutual reception by triplicity. The Moon first perfects its conjunction with the Sun, then meets Jupiter (career) by sextile and then finally conjoins with Mercury, which is retrograde and combust. So whatever help Mercury could have been to Jupiter through their mutual reception is blighted by Mercury being combust and retrograde.

So chew on this for a while. I?ve got to get going, but I?d say you?ve got a really optimistic chart here, but only if you accept the added responsibility to start at the beginning, in elementary school as it were before applying to the university. Personally, after studying and reading all the time for two years, I feel like I?m in 7th or 8th grade. This is a great subject but it?s harder than it first seems.
Mark F

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Mark,
Thankyou for your encouraging and informative response. Firstly, I'm unsure why you said, 'the chart is for 3:48 AM not PM.', as I am aware of this. I looked at the cahrt again using Regiomantus houses, as I suspect this is the system you used.
I was interested to read that the POF in the chart is conjunct the ascendant, looking at the chart I see it is exact. Wow! I normally don't use the POF in horary but I was pleasantly suprised to see it conjunct the ascendant, so a co-significator. Thankyou for pointing this out. It makes the horary even more special to me to see this as well as the Moon cazimi. As this is intriguing, I will not ignore the POF in future. I understand what you mean about the 3rd/9th axis. If the 3rd is learning to read and write, the 9th is writing a novel. I feel that the 3rd house emphasis, is a reflection of how I was meant to discover these forums, as forums are 3rd house places of reading, writing, posting and learning.
You said:
You should concentrate on doing lots of charts, and this forum is a great place to get lots of other people?s chart to work on. No one can learn astrology just by doing their own charts. I?ve said this before, but if you are just interested in your own charts, in your own life, then it?s better to pay a professional to interpret them for you. If you have a real interest in the subject above and beyond your own life and charts, then you have to do many charts.

It would seem you had presumed I have never considered charts other than my own before when you said this, which is not true. I know what a wonderful place forums are and I have already been helping people to interpret charts and they have been helping me. I have also recieved such positive feedback from my attempts, despite not being greatly experienced, that I become more and more encouraged and intrigued. If because I asked a question about myself, this appeared egotistical, then this not the case. I merely presented this personal, past question as an interesting example of the lunar significator in cazimi. I was interested to see what others would have to say about this aspect. Of course I 'have a real interest above and beyond my own life and chart', and I felt that I had been unfairly judged in this respect and categorised as ignorant from what little is known about me on the basis of one post. However I do appreciate that it was your intention to give guidance and this is good and I am glad you took the time to respond. :)
I have already placed an order for Lilly's 'Christian Astrology', and I will look into John Frawley.
You said to be encouraged, but to start at the beggining. A new beggining would also be symbolised, I feel, by the Moon cazimi, as it is a New Moon, the start of a new cycle of learning. I believe that when Uranus hit my natal ascendant at Pisces 10, I began a new level of study. I was encouraged further to see Uranus in the 9th house in the reading. I wonder, when will the Moon next be in cazimi at 12 degrees Leo? I imagine this would be outside of my current lifetime, perhaps reflecting the start of a new cycle of discovery in another life? What of the lunar cazimi occuring in the 2nd, why am I in the 2nd house in the Reg. system?

Regards,
Draco :P

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I looked at the chart again and it is for 3:48 AM, not PM isn't it?

I apologize if I gave the impression that I thought that you had no interest in other people?s charts. My experience has made me cautious when I see someone bring up a lot of modern and lofty concepts at an early stage. I?m sorry if I lumped you into that category. But my point still stands that I would stick to traditional sources which are more reliable, proven and to avoid the modern, vague concepts like past lives, karma, the evolution of mankind, etc. On a different topic, someone asked about the galactic center, Pluto and man?s spiritual evolution, when it was clear that the person didn?t know much about astrology. This is the trap of modern astrology. They use all kinds of ideas that make the reader feel like they are more spiritual, when they haven?t even learned the basics of the art. I started out briefly with modern but soon found it to be a dead end. John Frawley is the best at describing modern astrology.

I wouldn't use that example of the 3rd house is learning to write while the 9th is writing a novel. I chose my analogy carefully. The 3rd house is the joy of the Moon, so it would cover elementary schools. (My reasoning is that the Moon rules the rearing of children, nurturing and things like that.) But it's a small point. Deb's forum is great and he her articles are the best on the web by far. Her wording is clear enough so that I understood them when I first read them, but I get more out them each time I read them.

Keep your eye on the ASC. You?ve got Saturn in the ASC and that is a warning sign. From Christian Astrology:
if Saturn be in the Ascendant, especially Retrograde, the matter of that Question seldom or never comes to good.
This is more so because you asked about higher knowledge ? the 9th house ? and Saturn rules the 9th house. I?d say that the danger of your situation is that you want to focus on the cazimi Moon, and who wouldn?t? A cazimi Moon is kind of rare and it?s a great thing. Saturn in the ASC is another pointer to slow down, take your time and be patient. You?ve obviously got a lot of skill and interest in learning astrology, so have confidence that you?re be great at, but slow down so you make sure you do it right.

I wouldn't necessarily use Uranus at all in this reading. I only use the outers when they are in a tight orb with a main significator, or perhaps if one were angular. Uranus usually shows a separation, a divorce, and a sudden shock. It doesn?t rule any signs, doesn?t have a day of the week named after it nor a planetary hour. It doesn?t collect or translate light and aspects to it don?t count towards whether the Moon is void of course or not. Treat it as if it were a fixed star. The same for the other outers if you use them.

I also wouldn?t place much emphasis on finding out when the Moon is next cazimi at the same degree as it was in this chart. But you?re right about the cazimi moon showing a new beginning.

What to make of the Moon, Sun and Mercury in the 2nd house? While the basic meaning of the 2nd house is your moveable property, I think it can also show self worth. Deb has mentioned that a few times. It also could show that your interest will lead to a financial reward, but I?m just speculating on that.

I?d be interested to know what you think of your current career? I see your 10th house ruler way down there in the 4th and I am wondering if you are really down about your job right now?
Mark F

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Hi Mark :D ,

I understand what you mean about sticking to traditional astrology, and this is my preferred approach. However, you can't help absorbing modern knowledge along the way, although I do find some of it a bit dubious. On another forum I expressed my frustrations regarding Chiron and the asteroids, including the outer planets, arguing they are given too much emphasis in a chart seeing as we know so little about them. The asteroids I find particularly untrustworthy. The influences of the seven traditional 'stars' however have been tried and tested and observed across millenia, so we can take their assigned spheres of influence more or less for granted.

I'm not at all in the 'sun-sign astrology' category who is only interested in freebie interpretations of my chart and personal horaries because I don't have the aptitude or inclination to learn this art myself. I don't take a novice interest, I am genuinely enthusiastic and studious in regard to astrology, in fact I've probably never been so enthusiastic and studious about anything! My interest is holistic, and I pursue knowledge in mundane, natal, horary and karmic astrology in equal measure, though horary is at the moment my primary interest and the branch I am finding most fascinating, as I am amazed at how well it works(!), even with only limited knowledge. Which is why I am eager to learn this inside out, because if I can interpret charts with as much significance to the querent as it seems I have been doing with my imperfect knowledge, I am fascinated as to what further details I can extract as my knowledge develops.

I know what your saying about the 3rd/9th axis, but when I compared the 3rd to 'learning to read and write' and the 9th to 'writing a novel' it was intended as an analogy to the 'elementary'/'university' idea which you presented. That is to say that the 3rd is a position in which to learn due to inexperience, whereas the 9th is a position in which to teach due to accumulated experience and learning. Basically, I was seeking to express that I understood what you meant about the 3rd house emphasis. Therefore I presented this analogy with the intention of empathising with your own comparison of the 'elementary school' and 'higher education', that is to say, you can't write a best-seller (9th) before you have learned the alphabet (3rd). This is all I meant. :?

I was interested to read Lilly's quote from 'Christian Astrology', regarding Saturns placement. However, upon thinking about this, Saturns connection to the ascendant is quite wide, it isn't retrograde, and even better, Saturn is on the midpoint of the POF/ascendant and cazimi moon, the two most fortunate indications in the chart. So in light of this I think this would moderate Saturns malefic presence a lot, giving him over to a considerably fortunate accidental dignity. In turn, however, Saturn may modify the influence of the cazimi Moon and the POF/ascendant making them less fortuitous, but I imagine the power of Saturn against the power of a cazimi Sun/Moon and the POF on the ascendant, is a force to be reckoned with! Of course, it would seem natural to try and see the best in one's own horary, but I promise that I am just commenting upon what I see as a special circumstance in Saturns positioning in this case. I would not try to fool myself into 'making a silk purse out of a sows ear', out of this horary, as the English saying goes, it is just I feel that in observing, I think that this is a special circumstance in this reading (Im a terrible pupil, I'm one of those learners who always answers an answer with, 'Yes, but what if.......?', but hopefully this just conveys my creativity and enthusiasm to learn).
I must thank you for mentioning Saturn, or else I may not have noticed he was on the midpoint of the cazimi Moon and the POF/ascendant. Another good omen. Also you brought my attention to the POF in the first place in the chart and I thank you for that. I can see that you must be one of those influences which have been sent my way to help me learn. I have noticed on another forum that the two people who I have interacted with most, I share certain similarities with in my natal chart, which in turn symbolises the nature of what and how I learn from them. As this personal horary is of great importance to me, and you are the person who responded most significantly and is helping me to come to new realisations, perhaps, in time, I will come to discover what my astrological resonance is with you?

About the modern planets, I agree that I must come to a thorough understanding of the traditional, primarily. Of course, and I agree with this. However, I felt a significant resonance with astrology when considering the outer planets just recently, which is why I cannot completely disregard them. Uranus came into exact conjunction with my ascendant at Pisces 10 in April. This was quite a strange time for me, in which I found myself doing things and acting in ways very uncharacteristic of me, and Uranus is meant to represent the 'strange' and 'unusual'. Uranus is also given some association with astrology as well as electrical technology, and I must admit that at this time, I acquired access to the internet, and since doing so I have been learning ten times more, ten times quicker as a result, and then I discover wonderful forums like this! Further to this, Uranus was/is in mutual reception to Neptune, with Uranus being Aquarius' 'modern' ruler, with Neptune ascribed to Pisces. So it would seem significant also, when Uranus hit my ascendant, that I should embark upon a course to prepare to work upon a cruiseship last April, Uranus exactly conjunct my ascendant and Neptune (the ocean/ships) exactly conjunct my natal POF, both in reception by (modern) exaltation. Now it is the holidays, but I return to college in September. I am aware that I should put the modern planets and modern astrology on a back burner, but these intriguing associations seem to be telling me to not forget about the 'moderns' all together.

Despite saying all this, I have an intense discomfort with the 'modern' planets. For example, the beautifully harmonious, symmetrical and ordered attribution of planetary exaltation across the zodiac. Three more planets are discovered, and just thrown into whatever zodiacal correspondence which seems to have the slightest whiff of resonance at the time, regardless of preserving this delicately crafted and wonderfully balanced and 'perfect' attribution of the ancients. I have always found the attribution of Scorpio=Pluto, Aquarius=Uranus and Neptune=Pisces very dubious and suspect. Somehow my intuition just says 'no!'. If these planets were to be attributed equally across the zodiac, which there is no reason they should not be, as three is divisible by twelve, then I would be a bit more positive about this. One thing I have thought, is perhaps if we attributed the Cardinals to Uranus, the Mutables to Neptune and the Fixed signs to Pluto, perhaps this would give us an adequate and balanced system of correspondence, preserving the harmonious attribution of the ancients and reconciling the outer planets with a sense of orderly belonging. I have thought about this for years. I just know I'm going to be criticised the hell out of because of this, but its just an idea, and no-one else seems to be talking about it and I have never read about some attempt to reconcile this problem. I wonder why?
On another forum I was told that I should always consider the outer planets in consideration of the Moons last aspect. However I strongly, intuitively disagreed with this and I will only take the outers as a secondary consideration in a horary, in light of the MLA, regardless of what I was told. I suspect that you agree with this. I am aware now that the MLA, was not customarily observed in horary prior to 1700, which I am now aware and found interesting. I did already have the inclination, as you said, that the outers should be 'treated like fixed stars', if not especially honoured 'fixed stars'.

You asked me what I think of my current career, as you said, 'Your 10th house ruler is way down there in the 4th, and I am wondering if you are really down on your job right now?'. Wow! Firstly, What career? :???: On another forum I posted the question, 'Help! Why am I drifting aimlessly?', and I was hoping people could help me interpret my natal in light of why I have never, despite enough intelligence and creativity, been able to find a path in life. In that post I detailed how I drift from job to job, home to home, this to that, while never sticking with something long enough to develop a career, sense of purpose, or true calling or place in life. At school I loved to learn, I just hated that I wasn't able to learn what I wanted to learn about, I hated the 'system', the curriculum. Eventually it came so that I would not be there more often than I was, and I would be in a library somewhere educating myself upon astrology, philosophy, religion, theosophy and the inexplicable. I still believe that the knowledge I have pursued myself is more important to me than anything I was ever taught at school. So although studious and intelligent, I very much rebelled. It was not learning I wasn't interested in, it was the strictures, the institutionalisation I hated (Uranus conjunct Mars). Now, although I agree with you that the 'moderns' should not concern us too much, I believe that this has a lot to do with me being Pisces rising with Neptune, modern ruler, right on the MC. As a Sun Virgo, I think having dreamy, drifting Pisces as my rising sign, is a bit problematic as they have opposite needs. Neptune on the MC makes it difficult for me to find my calling unless this is something spiritual.. Somehow to me, astrology is inextricably a spiritual thing. I have never taken so much interest in, learned so much so quickly about, or had a passion for any subject as much as I do astrology, and from such an early age. Which is why I wonder, is astrology my calling in life?

By the way, may I mention, that when I posted the horary under the question, 'What can I discover in astrology', I told something of a fib. In fact, my original, personal question at the time was, 'Do I have the latent ability to become a professional astrologer?'. The reason I re-phrased my question for posting is that I just knew, that some older, more experienced astrologer would shout me down and say, 'No! Don't try to run before you can walk!', or 'Don't be silly!' or 'Don't be so presumptuous, of course you can never be as good as me!'. This is why I felt it neccesary to rephrase my question and then interpret the response according to the true question I knew I had inside my head and that was applied to the original question.
However, from the feedback I have had from you, you do not seem at all discouraging, you are just sharing your knowledge as you know it, which I appreciate and is why I am here. Thankyou. :D

I know what you mean about the horary indicating I have much more to learn, which of course I do, and interaction with people such as yourself is essential if I am to do that. However, the cazimi Moon and POF right upon the ascendant? The midpoint neutralising the big malefic? Lovely! This fortifies my ambition. I think it is part of my destiny to know astrology as a close friend in this life, but it is not even my ultimate ambition to become an astrologer proper, although this would be fabulous. To learn all I can to a high degree of competence, however, is my ultimate ambition. To become professional in years to come would be a wonderful extra, the 'icing on the cake', so to speak, to quote another English saying. The question just inquired as to whether i had the raw ingredients to become professional, out of curiosity, and the heavens gave me a cazimi Moon significator! Then POF exact conjunct the ascendant. Intriguing to say the least!

In consideration of a cazimi planet in astrology:

William Lilly says of a cazimi planet, that it is 'wondrous strong'.

Abu Ma'shar said, 'a planet in cazimi, is like a man who purifies himself and so lacks strength, but will regain health afterwards.' perhaps this is the learning I must undergo?

Contemporary astrologer, Nina Holy, says of a planet in cazimi that, 'the Sun bestows great protection on the planet, a sort of cosmic, protective hand.'

Last but not least, astrologer, Deborah Houlding, informs us that a planet in cazimi is, 'a state of solar empowered brilliance, where the two planets are fused to act as one.'.

All this, and not only was the cazimi Moon my significator, but the Moon is the most important planet to consider in horary. What a good omen!

Thankyou for your interesting feedback Mark. I can tell that I am going to enjoy corresponding with you. :)

Regards,
Draco.

8
I hate to burst your bubble, but I personally don't do midpoints. They aren't traditional so I would take full warning from that Saturn in the ASC. Sure it's not retrograde, and that's something but I wouldn't lessen its importance one bit.

Midpoints, just like all those minor aspects can cloud what should be a clear reading. A modern person on here once told me that "everythng in every chart is connected to each other." No it isn't. That just a way to fuzz over everything. I think midpoints are like that too. Besides, I am not sure that even a modern astrologer would use a midpoint from the Part of Fortune, which is itself a point.

About transits to the natal, I still don't know what to say about them. I know that they are not traditional at all but I have noticed that every year when the Sun transits my natal Pluto I erupt and get into some kind of self-destructive trouble, or I have a huge fight with someone I love, or both. Oddly enough, this transit happens NOW, at the end of August. This has happened to me in 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004. It may have happened before, but if so I never took notice of it. This year I planned ahead and told myself to disregard whatever screwed up idea comes into my tiny little brain during the end of August. And believe me I have been tempted this year. I even decided last week to go to the beach to get away from everything just to get myself calmed down some. I've been reading Marcilio Ficino's excellent book Three Books on Life. He says to drink some red wine with everything, says it has all kinds of wonderous power. I tried it and it works. Of course I am well on my way to full wino-hood, but I least I won't shoot myself in the foot this year. I put off all decisions till after Labor Day.

But other transits come and go with not a hair rustled and I know that no pre-1700 author seems to use them.

So I don't know about transits. On one hand I am not so sure, but on the real life level I know to be afraid this time of year. What I do plan on doing when I really get into natal work is to use the various techniques, especially the traditional way, which are Primary Directions, but also transits and other techniques to see what correlates to known events in my life.

Have you read Maggie Hyde's article about Ivy Goldstein-Jacobson's sick boy? Ms. Hyde uses some modern psychological thinking, but still sticks with the real chart. It's a great article and it avoids what I see is the problem with modern work in that she stays grounded in the chart and doesn't speculate. I was really impressed.
Mark F

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Three more planets are discovered, and just thrown into whatever zodiacal correspondence which seems to have the slightest whiff of resonance at the time, regardless of preserving this delicately crafted and wonderfully balanced and 'perfect' attribution of the ancients. I have always found the attribution of Scorpio=Pluto
I believe there is a discussion arquived somewhere in this forum about the origin of rulerships of three outer planets, and is kinda of a funny story :-) But you can see a little logic: the rulership is normal from cancer/leo (moon/sun) to capricorn (saturn) in the chaldean order. Then, the next planet (uranus) you give to aquarius. Another planet ? let?s give it to us, poor pisces, to give us fame of drugadicts ! Still another one ? Oh, let?s give it to Aries ? Nooooo, for some strange motive throw it on scorpio :-)

Every little asteroid which is discovered is called the "real ruler" of some sign... Libra doesn?t need a "real ruler", venus is her ruler ! As we piscians don?t need neptune as our "real ruler" as we are jupiter?s children :-) Mercury is ruler of both gemini and virgo, asteroid Ceres will have to look for another job...

I agree with MarkF that is very problematic you use outer planets as the "modern ruler" of anything, spetially in Horary, also, they don?t have any great signification in real life, and most astrologers who use them are saying "it works for me, so I do whatever I want". Well, the fact is that it DOESNT work anyway we want to it, and the proof is that one delineation of Deborah Houlding, John Frawley, our Sue and Tom, are lightyears of most things you see in internet.

About transits, I really don?t when they were criated, but they DO work, although I don?t think ancient astrologers were worried because they only seem to do "psychological influence", and I think they were more worried about marriages, children, deaths and stuff.

About asteroids and midpoints, I have an explanation so you don?t think me and MarkF are only bitching you :-)
modern astrologers don?t usually do predictions, at least the majority, exceptions are a few good mundaners like judy johns and another one that I don?t remember but his site is www.astropro.com. They only do interpretations, or prediction is hindsight, not foresight (I hope I am saying it right, heheheh)

So they have to explain anything, AFTER it happen, and so you need something.... so there is the urge for so many aspects (semi-sextiles, semi-quadratures, quintiles, octiles, Nth harmonics...) and asteroids, and black holes, and midpoints... this is useful if you are looking for an explanation, ANY explanation.

But it makes impossible to do any prediction, as the gigantic number of things to see, creates a cloud which blocks all light... for example, there is more than 100 midpoins to any chart ! Even if I use very close orbs (less than 1 degree) chances are that I will find at least three or four very close aspects to ANY chart. Including my chart and the last eclipse, and New york exchange chart and USA chart, or yours and Saddam :-)

So it is a very hard art of ours, and one so much fun :-)

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Hi Yuzuku,

Thanks for the link to the site by the way.

I know what you're saying about midpoints and other surplus considerations we could make in a chart, and we must stick to the essentials to make sense of it. We must have a set of ordered principles, of course. However, it was just that in the chart, the POF/Asc and cazimi Moon midpoint just seemed to stand out as significant, because to me, they seemed to be the most prominent and peculiar features of the chart.

Saturn, otherwise detrimental, would seem to be tempered in malefic influence in that he sits right between these two fortunes. He is relieved by a force of good on either side and so his position is of some dignity. It just seemed a natural observation to make in this case, it stood out. Also Saturn is in term and face, so is in the least worst part of his sign of general detriment. He is not retrograde, and although widely conjunct the ascendant this is a dissociated conjunction as Saturn and the Asc are in different signs, and thereby subject to different rulers. The Asc. is ruled by the Moon, but also by the POF in exact conjunction, therefore both are significators of myself, the Moon is in the embrace of the Sun, surely a most fortuitous omen, particulary when the cazimi involves the Moon and when the Moon is significator. Saturn is in the Sun's sign, so he is ruled by the Sun/Moon cazimi, so he is subject to the influence of these. Also, the POF rules the 1st, by conjunction with the ascendant, and Saturn is in the first. The Moon rules the 1st, as cancer rises and this is my significator in cazimi. Therefore, either way, Saturns malefic qualities are significantly undermined, as he is ruled by the cazimi by the Sun as he is in the Sun's sign, and he is ruled by the cazimi by the Moon as he is in the house the Moon rules at the 1st cusp. The Asc. conjunct the POF as well, this is surely not very malefic.

The chart does show that Mercury is not only burned by the suns rays, but due to being retrograde is moving even closer to combustion, so I am aware also of the limitations in this chart.