7th or 5th house for lover?

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7th or 5th house for lover?

This issue seems to be coming up quite a bit just lately and it?s causing a lot of confusion amongst students who aren?t sure whether to use the 7th house or 5th house for the signification of a lover enquired about in the horary question.

Lilly tells us very clearly that all manner of love questions are judged by the 7th house and that it is from that house we obtain signification for the marriage partner or the sweetheart. I don?t recall seeing any respected horary astrologer judge a question such as ?does he love me?? or ?will our relationship continue?? using the 5th house to signify the other person asked about, rather than taking their signification from the 7th house. If anyone can find any published examples that contradict the view that the ?other person? immediately involved in the relationship asked about (regardless of whether it is a legally binding or relatively casual relationship) is signified by the 7th house, I would appreciate the references.

I can see a case where one might ask a question about a relationship with one person, let?s say ?will my husband and I be reconciled?? and prohibition of the two main significators by the ruler of the 5th house could show the involvement of a lover spoiling the chances of the reconciliation. I assume this is the way that Barbara Watters was expecting the signification to work when she wrote that the 5th house can signify love affairs or lovers ? but this is not to say that she would have assigned the lover to the 5th house had he/she been the one asked about as the focus of the question.

The reason I bring this up is because a student has just asked about those situations where you get one planet acting as the significator for both the querent and quesited. I explained that it usually causes no major problems because the only charts that are heavily dependent upon having two very clear and separate main significators are either partnership, trade, adversary or relationship questions, all of which take signification for the two parties needing to take positions against or make agreement with each other from the 1st and 7th houses.

But if you ask a question about a lover, take signification from the 5th house, and then find that both you and your lover are signified by the same planet, all of the important interplay between the two main significators is lost.

The surest way to introduce weakness into a horary astrologer?s judgement is to confuse their signification. I really see no point in messing about with this signification since the traditional approach has been so clear and works so well.

5th or 7th house

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I am currently studying Lee Lehman's "Learning with Lee" Relationship horary CD series and as you may know, she advocates using the 5th for lovers who are NOT live-ins. She advocates using the 7th house for questions about marriage or permanent (live-in) lovers.

But she also addressed the very topic you mention: what if the same planet signifies both the querent and the lover?

Lehman says this signifies "love and concord" or at least, that the two people are in total agreement or share the same outlook.

I have done some charts recently that had this very aspect and it has proved accurate (at least so far)!

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As I mentioned in a previous thread, Lee is advocating the use of the 5th house because of her interpretation of how societal attitudes towards relationships have changed. She is not basing her techniques on sound traditional principles of astrology. What she is teaching is not traditional astrology but a modern adaptation.

Lee says:
It is still quite obvious to think in terms of relationships being primarily 5th or 7th House in nature. For example, a relationship which is heavily sexual, with no merging of finances and without living together is unequivocally 5th, while a relationship with cohabitation and a greater or lesser degree of financial mingling is 7th in nature. It has become the custom of our society since the Sixties that relationships begin in the 5th, and then move to the 7th if the parties are willing.
This is clearly a modern adaptation and has no historical precedent. Regardless of whether societal attitudes have changed (and one could probably argue that deep down they haven't) the fundamental principles remain the same and the same rules apply. To say that relationships always begin in the 5th house and may end up in the 7th house leaves interpretation wide open. At exactly what point does it shift houses? As Deb pointed out, confusing the signification just leads to weakness in the judgement.

Voyagergirl said:
But she also addressed the very topic you mention: what if the same planet signifies both the querent and the lover?

Lehman says this signifies "love and concord" or at least, that the two people are in total agreement or share the same outlook.
This makes no sense. The whole idea of a relationship chart is to examine the interplay between the two people. As much as some people might have the fantasy of being in the perfect union, two people in any relationship are still individuals and the chart needs to clearly express that, which, of course, is just what Deb said. :)

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To say that relationships always begin in the 5th house and may end up in the 7th house leaves interpretation wide open. At exactly what point does it shift houses?
If we say that, then we could say that after beginning in the 5th house, the relationship enters a 6th house stage before proceeding to the 7th. Modern astrology loves this sort of developmental thing. So now we busy ourselves deciding when the relationship moved from the 5th to the 6th and on to the 7th. What a mess we end up with! I don?t know if that is actually done, but it is a example of the contemporary method of freewheeling with the houses.

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I can't agree more with Deb and Sue's comments. I would just add that in any romantic relationship you should always check out the 5th house, but not as a significator, but more of a barometer to see where the relationship is at.

I think Lee Lehman's analysis is too dependent on the supposed change in out standards and behavior since the advent of the sexual revolution. I think that is the time period from the Victorian age through the 1950's that is the periond of time that is out of step with the general trend in history. This was the age of inhibitions and controlled behavior. Astrology began in the hedonistic pagan past, but they still put relationships under the 7th house.
Mark F

5th or 7th

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Well, I have to say, that now that I've become aware that many, if not, most astrologers use the 7th house for all relationships, I've reviewed the charts I've cast regarding romantic relationships from both perspectives.

Most of the time, the answer is the same regardless of which house you use. However, sometimes the answer is completley different.

This is where I think Lee Lehman makes sense. It's very possible that two people might have a fine romantic or 5th house relationship, but it might not progress to marriage. And the chart would show that if you use the 5th house.

if two people just met and are contemplating beginning a romantic relationship, it's highly likely that they feel it would be premature to be contemplating marriage or co-habiting.

As far as determining exactly when the shift takes place from the 5th to the 7th house, that depends on getting a clear depiction from the querent. Are they really asking about a permanent relationship (7th house) or are they asking, "Does so-and-so have any romantic interest in me and will he pursue it?" (5th house.)

Then, if the indications are that a romantic relationship is likely to ensue, a follow-up question might be, "Will I marry him?" or "will our relationship end in marriage?"

Besides, if the 7th house is to be used "for all manner of relationships" then do you still use the 10th house to signify a boss or company CEO, or the 3rd for questions about neighbors or brothers and sisters? I mean, don't we have "relationships" with them, too?

Perfect accord: when the two significators are the same

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I have an example of a chart where the two significators are the same planet.

Two years ago I asked the question, "Will so-and-so rent my house?"

I was very concerned about this as I was moving across the country and needed to find a reliable tenant for my house. My co-worker had told me she would rent the house, but she had not yet paid a deposit or signed the lease. Hence the question.

Mars ruled the 1st and 6th cusps: so we were both ruled by the same significator. However, the Moon in Taurus exactly squared Mars, so I judged the answer was "no." (And I suppose if I'd been following the McEvers line of reasoning, I would have been right!)

However, since this was an urgent matter (after all, I'd have to find a new tenant if my co-worker fell through) I submitted the chart to Lee Lehman and hired her to review it. She said that my coworker would unequivocally rent the house, based on the fact that Mars represented us both, showing agreement, and because Mars was almost exactly conjunct the fourth house cusp.

She said the applying lunar square showed difficulties however. She proved to be exactly right. My co-worker did rent the house and stayed for 18 months. While she paid the rent on time, there were several difficulties and in the end she owed me nearly $1,000 in utilities which I had left in my name as a favor to her! (She has since begun to pay me back.)

Just thought this was an interesting example...

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Hi Voyagergirl

I really can?t see anything that is gained by taking this approach, but a lot that is lost by it. What clarity is there when we have to ask the querent to establish how much of a romantic interest are they looking for? How permanent is marriage nowadays anyway, and what are the limits by which we define ?live-in??
Besides, if the 7th house is to be used "for all manner of relationships" then do you still use the 10th house to signify a boss or company CEO, or the 3rd for questions about neighbors or brothers and sisters? I mean, don't we have "relationships" with them, too?
Yes, but we don?t have intimate, and exclusively one-to-one relationships with them, which are of the nature of the 7th house. Of course some people do ask this kind of question about a boss, in which case we would assign the boss to the 7th house, because then they are asking about a love affair rather than a work-issue.
She said that my coworker would unequivocally rent the house, based on the fact that Mars represented us both, showing agreement, and because Mars was almost exactly conjunct the fourth house cusp.
I should say there would be difficulties with the Moon applying to the square of an angular Mars, sitting on the cusp of the 4th and therefore blighting property matters. Don?t you think this chart was warning you against that tenant, and the difficulties you would experience with her?

I?m bemused at the thought of Mars, the natural significator of disagreement and conflict, being used as an indicator of agreement, simply because it is used to signify both the querent and the quesited. This seems to be a way of reading the symbolism that completely ignores its natural signification.

I remain unconvinced I'm afraid :)

Same significator

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I can understand why you (or anyone, for that matter) would feel as you do regarding Mars being both of our significators on the example I gave you regarding my question about renting my house.

And normally, I would have agreed with you and probably sought out another tenant. However, since time was of the essence, and I felt I "knew" my co worker well enough to trust her to be a good tenant, I acted on Lee Lehman's interpretation.

And, yes, while Lee's prediction of problems was true, I feel it's unrealistic to think one will rent one's house and not have ANY problems. I think the most we can hope for when we rent our own homes out is that our tenant will pay the rent on time and not destroy the place. Thankfully, this tenant, in spite of the problems, was a good tenant in that regard. (And when I hear stories from other people who are landlords, I feel especially good -- one person I know had a tenant who set up a methanphetamine lab in her house!)

Also, maybe Mars as both of our significators played out in another way. I was heading off to law school and Mars is the ruler of my natal ninth house. The tenant, besides being my co-worker, is also a former Marine and martial arts practitioner. So maybe Mars was simply descriptive.

So there you have it.

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Hi Deb!

This is certainly becoming an interesting astrological, not to mention, philosphical debate!

You asked, "What clarity is there when we have to ask the querent to establish how much of a romantic interest are they looking for? How permanent is marriage nowadays anyway, and what are the limits by which we define ?live-in??

I think the clarity comes in in two ways: first, it forces the client to clarify the question in his own mind: is he asking about a permanent relationship or the hopes of one with a particular person? Or is he asking about the possiblity of a romance (and NOT a marriage) at this point? Depending on the circumstances, it should be quite clear which house to use. If he's talking about a current love affair and wants to know if it will result in marriage or be "permanent" then it's clear that you would use the 7th house. If he's living with someone, then, according to Lee Lehman, he's already in a 7th house relationship.

If he's talking about the possibility of having a romantic liaison with someone or the potential of dating someone or he is just dating someone and the relationship isn't serious enough to discuss marriage, then it's a fifth house question.

And you're right, that nowadays, many marriages (and certainly many live-in situations) aren't "permanent" but that's besides the point, I think, because generally, no one in his or her right mind gets married thinking it's just temporary: the hope is that this is a permanent relationship.

(But another horary question might answer that!)

However, the 7th house also rules "contractual relationships" such as anyone with whom you have a legal contract.

And not all marriages are entered into for romantic reasons, for example, some arranged marriages might not be "love matches." Or if a person marries out of convenience or immigration purposes, it's still a 7th house situation and not a 5th house situation, which again, argues for making a clear distinction between the 5th and 7th houses.

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Voyagergirl:
..most astrologers use the 7th house for all relationships, I've reviewed the charts I've cast regarding romantic relationships from both perspectives.

Most of the time, the answer is the same regardless of which house you use. However, sometimes the answer is completley different.

This is where I think Lee Lehman makes sense. It's very possible that two people might have a fine romantic or 5th house relationship, but it might not progress to marriage. And the chart would show that if you use the 5th house.
Do you have a sample chart where you used the 5th instead of the 7th for a relationship question, and the actual result (i.e. what actually happened in relation to that chart) indicates that you made the right choice? Or to put it in another words, the result of the 7th is different from the 5th, and what actually happened was what the 5th indicated. If yes, can you post the data & background info for it? Thanks.

5th versus 7th house example

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Here's a chart data I cast about a friend's romance. He is signified by the 11th house, ruled by Venus. I used the 5th for the girlfriend, since it was a new romance. So she is ruled by Saturn. The Moon translates the light between Venus and Saturn and in fact, is in mutual reception with Venus.

If I had used the 7th house for her, she would have been ruled by Mars, which is not in aspect to Venus. And the Libra Moon would have been past any aspects to both Mars and Venus at that point, so there would be no TOL, so using the 7th house would have not given an accurate reading.

Chart cast: June 16, 6:06 p.m., El Paso, Texas. (106W29, 31N 46).

"does he have a girlfriend and if so, will it last the summer?"

So far, it has.

Also, Lee Lehman's relationship CD series actually gives several example charts divided into the two categories: 5th and 7th houses. That might be helpful, too.