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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Is This Moon the Quesited's Wife or the Querent?

 
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AmeliaS



Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 88

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:01 am    Post subject: Is This Moon the Quesited's Wife or the Querent? Reply with quote

The Querent asked, "Does he like me?"

Both parties are married to others. Female Querent. Male Quesited.

I wonder if the Moon signifies the Quesited's wife instead of the Querent. I know this sounds a bit off, but this Moon is disposited by Lord 7 Venus in his house. Ms Deb does say that the Moon is a general significator for wives in Skyscript's guidelines for "Horary Love Charts".

On the other hand, since Quesited and Querent live in different countries, Moon ruling House 9 would seem to fit the Querent.

Hence my confusion. Am I thinking too much? I'd appreciate any insight.

My original judgment, if of interest:
Yes, he fancies her (Moon conjunct Lord 7 Venus; Lord 1 trine with Lord 7; Lord 5 Jupiter translating between them - or at least unable to prohibit their conjunction according to Bonatti).
However, I doubt if an actual affair will happen (Lord 7 is in the 7th; Neptune on cusp 5; Lord 1 escapes before perfection, although Saturn might effect a collection).


March 28, 2020. 9:29pm. Incheon, South Korea

Amelia


Last edited by AmeliaS on Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 95
Location: Montreal

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Amelia,

The first thing that strikes me is that the ASC (Scorpio, Mars) and the Hour-ruler Saturn do not match.
As per Bonatti, it might signify that the question 'is not rooted.'
Even if we extend it as per Deb to the humoral nature - Mars is hot and dry and Saturn is cold and dry, which does not match any of the conditions below.

- Hour-ruler is the ascendant ruler:
- Hour- ruler and asc-ruler are in the same triplicity
- Hour-ruler and ascendant are of the same triplicity
- Hour-ruler has same humoral nature as the ascendant:
That is, `hot and dry' planets agree with `hot and dry' signs, etc.

All significators Mars(Exaltation) Venus(Ruler) and the Moon(Exaltation) are strong and connected by a trine.
Even if we see Mars escaping, the Moon translates from Venus to Mars before it changes sign.
And I would focus on the Angular planets of the chart, not so much on Neptune.

Besides the radicality of the chart, here are some shadows I see in this chart.
- The querent co-ruler Moon in 7th applies to Venus also ruling her 12th. She might discover something hidden in the relationship.
- Quesited Venus (Bound of Saturn) in Mixed reception with Saturn (Face of Venus) in her 3rd with Mars also being in the 3rd. Was there a concern raised by the querent regarding a sister in regard to her relationship?

Cheers!
Ouranos
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 95
Location: Montreal

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I wonder if the Moon signifies the Quesited's wife instead of the Querent. I know this sounds a bit off, but this Moon is disposited by Lord 7 Venus in his house

Do you mean former wife of the Quesited? Because you say that the Querent and Quesited are married.
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AmeliaS



Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 88

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Ouranos,

Both parties are married to other people, not to each other.

Neither party has a sister. House 3 is Mars' planetary house though, which gives her a little additional strength. I did ponder over this House 3 emphasis like you. Perhaps something to do with communication.

I wasn't sure the Moon translates since these are both applying aspects. But Deb (and now you too) said somewhere on this forum that as long as a faster planet brings two significators together it has to mean something.

Thank you for these nice observations.

Amelia
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Miss Watson



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 128

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Amelia!

A while ago I asked a similar question here on the forum. And the Moon represented the 7th House, the partner's house.

In my opinion, the chart really confirms that he likes her because both the Moon and Venus apply by a trine aspect to Mars.
But as for "will they be together in the future?" I think another chart should be raised because it would involve a divorce first (and Saturn is in a aspect to Mars and they're both malefics).
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 95
Location: Montreal

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Amelia,

I did not get it at first that they were both married.

Let me review the scenario in a different way now.
There is a prohibition between VenusL7 and MarsL1 by the Moon, like a hurdle, an outside influence between them but it can be overcomed (Trine) .
And here the MoonL9 represents the distance between them and their current legal status (9th). But they have the power to change it (Dignities).

Kind regards,
Ouranos
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StellarTiggy



Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 306

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Querent,

His wife is signified by Saturn. I do not use the tropical sign system and therefore your significator is not Mars, it is his, and according to those principles you are Venus debilitated in Aries (controlled by the quesited - Mars). Mars is with his wife, who is Saturn. Both are in Capricorn which means he is controlled by his wife and not you. Neither Mars nor Saturn have any strong dignity to Venus. Actually, with Venus in Aries (the fall of Saturn) it shows the wife's presence has depressed you and you are already in a bad state as it is. Anyhoo, he doesn't like you as much as you like him. Moon applies in a trine to Jupiter before it conjoins your significator. With Jupiter ruling the 3rd and 6th I can't quite understand the significance but it might mean you remove yourself from the idea of this person because Jupiter appears to dispose your husband (who is Sun in Pisces in his radix 12th). Maybe you and your desired beau work together and you realize it isn't quite right to be with a coworker.
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AmeliaS



Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 88

Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the input. It would seem both Ouranos and Miss Watson agree the Moon doesn't represent the Querent. Hmm. Ouranos: thanks for pointing out Moon lording the 9th could point to legal status.

Stellar: thank you for the judgment. Only the two parties involved live in different countries. They never worked together. Bonatti thinks that a conjunction can't be prevented by other aspects. I take Frawley's view that it can, but less likely. Also, the Moon being partile with Jupiter, in fact, could be viewed as Moon being strengthened according to Lilly's planetary score sheet. Of course Jupiter is in fall and cadent, and it is still in the middle, so one has doubts. I tend to think this Jupiter doesn't prohibit. It is a benefic and the aspects are easy, after all. Both Moon and Venus are very strong and already within one degree of conjunction.

Finally, I got up early on a Sunday and treated myself some Lilly.

CA, page 317:

"If the Lord of the Ascendant or Moon be joyned to the Lord of the seventh, in any of the dignities of the Lord of the seventh, and in the Ascendant, eleventh, or tenth, hardly in the seventh, the querent shall obtain the party desired."

I did a cursory search to see how Lilly uses the word "hardly". To him it seems to mean "with difficulties" or "rarely".

Amelia
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 95
Location: Montreal

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Amelia,

Your quote from Lilly does not take into account the question asked nor the strength of the significators.

Here is a link where the quotes are extracted and organized.
https://www.sacred-texts.com/astro/aia/index.htm
Go to Chapter XXX for 7th House questions.

Hope you enjoy!
Ouranos
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AmeliaS



Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 88

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ouranos wrote:
Hello Amelia,

Your quote from Lilly does not take into account the question asked nor the strength of the significators.

Here is a link where the quotes are extracted and organized.
https://www.sacred-texts.com/astro/aia/index.htm
Go to Chapter XXX for 7th House questions.

Hope you enjoy!
Ouranos


Ouranos: of course you know I'd agree that planetary strength is important. The below image shows the paragraphs I took the quote from (page 317, CA):

https://ibb.co/G325CyH

Likewise, page 303, CA, Lilly quoting Alkindus: "If the Moon do apply onto Venus, and she strong, increasing in her motion, and in some of her own Dignities, and the Moon likewise, the marriage shall be concluded."

The version you quoted was CA as edited by Zadkiel. It seems to me he doesn't like distinguishing his own ideas from Lilly's. Sometimes Lilly says one thing and he says another. For example, which planets to use according to the Querent's sex: you can compare original CA (London:1659) page 304 "Of Marriage" with Zadkiel's "Whether a Man shall Marry". You'll see what I see. And honestly I have a problem with Zadkiel for that.

If anyone is interested, below is a full electronic version of original Lilly free of edits from Zadkiel. The 7th house matters start from page 297.
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=WZwEalHuM-gC&printsec=frontcover&pg=GBS.PA297

On page 317, Lillly put the text I quoted under the title: if a marriage shall be perfected or no. I'm well aware my chart isn't a simple marriage question involving only two parties, and that was actually part of why I sought your second opinion in the first place about how the significators might be different. That said, I think the Querent is interested to know whether the relationship "can be perfected"; the question was implied.

Amelia
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Ouranos



Joined: 28 Mar 2020
Posts: 95
Location: Montreal

Posted: Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Amelia for your appreciation of Zadkiel's work on Lilly. I was not aware he added his own zest in the sauce.
Like anything else in Horary, it is always interesting to confront opposing views and to put them to test.

Quote:
That said, I think the Querent is interested to know whether the relationship "can be perfected"; the question was implied.


There is always 2 sides to consider in a relationship question. And even if we say 'Yes', the question remains "Is the querent willing to put the efforts to make it work?'
I did not discuss the next aspect Moon trine Jupiter in Fall before it joins Venus. Jupiter in 3rd Lord of 2nd (money) and 5th (children). Money and children will be something brought up in their communications (phone, SMS, letters, etc). And they have to be careful not to overlook it (Jupiter) as this can cloud their relationship. It is like being invited for dinner and not having the financial means to bring a bottle of wine.
In the end, I still would answer Yes to the question.

Regards,
Ouranos
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Jupiterrising



Joined: 13 Jan 2018
Posts: 102

Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an interesting chart and question. Before I write anything, I should give a disclaimer that I am not skillled enough to read this horary.

I just wanted to say that the Moon is either you or the quesited's wife. It cannot be representing the long distance between you two.

I am curious to know who the wife is in this chart. She should show up somewhere. Is she Mercury? If the Moon is you, then is Mercury his wife? Mercury exalts Venus. If she is not Mercury, then she is the Moon.
Also, it's hard to tell whether your husband is Jupiter or Saturn.
The chart should show your interest in the quesited. As Mars you are ruled by Saturn, in detriment of Jupiter and in day time triplicity of Venus the quesited.
Venus the quesited exalts Moon, is in detriment of Mars, and part triplicity of Mars. Is in no dignity of Mercury.

Your question was whether he likes you, not whether you will have a relationship with him. So I think just the dignities and reception between you two should give you the answer.

That's how far my skill goes. I can't read this chart beyond that.
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AmeliaS



Joined: 07 Apr 2020
Posts: 88

Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for the input. I don't think the Moon represents the distance itself either, but since nobody is a professor in the play, I take this rulership to describe the distance very well, especially if we consider Moon a general co-significator of the matter.

Reception, when it comes to feelings, is nowhere near as useful as Frawley claims in my experience. I've seen too many times it failed. Also this has no roots in traditional teachings. Lilly would sooner dig up even a semi-sextile for proof of "sparks of love" (See page 390, CA) and not reception. When he does look at reception (See "A gentlewoman desired to know if she should have an aged man"), it's exact opposite the way Frawley does it. In fact, by the way Lilly presents the case, the reception might well have more to do with motivation to perfect the matter as a whole, and not necessarily (just) feelings.

An aspect, or mutual reception that can theoretically work like an aspect, combined with considerations of planetary speed and weight, and house position, has been far more reliable to me. As Lilly says, the applying, faster planet, or a planet in the other party's house, is usually the fonder. But since Frawley's theory is so influential I'm afraid this has to remain a matter of opinion.

P.S. I'm not the Querent. But I'll try to check back to provide an update in 2-3 months time.

Amelia
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