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? steps to reading lunar return ?
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Isaac Starkman



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel

Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My mentor Alexander Marr made a comprehensive study on both Zodiacs, and `while publishing articles in the Sidereal magazine Spica, he always preferred to work with the Tropical Zodiac. It is not illogical at all to use the precession in Tropical returns. Marr applied also the PSSR technique, discovered by the siderealist Cyril Fagan and applied it to the Tropical zodiac with immense success.
Srsedna mentioned the solar returns: According to Marr, in solar returns, both the tropical and precession corrected should be tested: sometimes the tropical solar return is better than the return with precession and vice versa. But in lunar return, only the precessional returns are effective, at least in most cases.
Here is what he wrote in his book Prediction, page 19: “ As long as siderealists evaluate their cyclic charts without comparing them to the radix, the sidereal zodiac may be used, and some promising results are possible. However, readers doing practical work and evaluating the most effective astrological phenomena for reasons of truth and simplicity should use the tropical zodiac throughout.”
If one has time, read chapters 3, 4, 7, 8 in Marr’s prediction.
I fully agree with Therese Hamilton that the only way is to perform a controlled research.
James: Gianna Bryant is not a good example, as she was young, age 13, so the recession is only 11’ but this case is an example for the need to compute also the demi lunar return, i.e. harmonics 2nd. In this demi chart for 21 January 2020 Neptune is on MC orb 1 degree (in tropical the orb is 5 degrees) and Node on Asc orb 2 degrees, ( in tropical the orb is 7 degrees).
In the converse demi lunar return, Pluto on Asc orb 2 degrees (in tropical the orb is 7 degrees).
It is better to use examples for peoples in age 40 or more.
I don’t have the location of death for Robert Zollers.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks isaac,

you put a lot of faith in alexander marr... regarding the issue of precession, he's using a sidereal system here....

i agree with you on using a person older, as opposed to younger, as there will be more of a distance gap to highlight the importance of precession, which is highlighting the importance of the sidereal zodiac... as for his study - i would have to see his study on the comparison.. does he share this work in his books? my thinking is ( for fun) we could do a limited experiment right here and see how they compare..
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srsedna



Joined: 22 May 2019
Posts: 20

Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gianna Bryant's case is impressive. Have you noticed, in the radix, the grand cross formed by tight squares/opps between Pluto, Venus, the Moon and the 8th house cusp?

The precession-corrected lunar return of Jan 8 has:

-ASC opposite natal ASC (orb is a bit more than 1 deg in long, but only 21' in declination--they're in a contraparallel). Note: I'm assuming she was in Calabasa at this moment, the orb would be tighter if she was in Santa Ana.
-ASC square natal Jupiter Rx in Scorpio (orb less than 30')
-Neptune in the 8th house of the LR (I pay attention to this because Neptune is rising in her radix).

The (tropical, prec-corr) demi-return of Jan 21 has that Pluto-Saturn conjunction sitting in the 8th house cusp and then Sun and Mercury in 8 too, while the Moon makes a wide opposition to the ASC and Mars square MC.

Now, the node-based lunar return happened on Jan 15 and it has Neptune rising, a couple degrees from natal Uranus in Gianna's h1. The moon is in conjunction with the natal house 8 cusp (5 degs, Placidus) but does not seem to aspect anything else. I was expecting more connections to that natal grand cross, but only the MC is near natal Pluto (again, 5 degs).

In the solar returns I observe:

Tropical regular: crowded h12, including Neptune in the cusp, getting squared by Mars and Jup in h2 and h8 respectively, and the Moon, which is, curiosly enough, only 1' shy of a perfect opposition to the Moon of the node-based return (this could mean nothing, I know). Also MC and Saturn opposite North Node, both squaring that h12 Mercury (ruler of Gianna's natal h8 ).

Tropical, precession-corrected: ASC on natal Mars, MC on natal Venus, therefore squaring Moon and Pluto and opposing the h8 cusp. The Moon in this return has reached a tight conjunction to the natal North Node.

Finally, I had never given converse returns a try before, and my first experience (with Gianna's death too) was spooky enough:

Converse regular solar return: Mars in h8, Pluto sitting on the cusp of the 12th squaring Saturn in the 3rd.
Converse, prec-corr solar return: angular Mars, angular grand cross between MC, Mercury, ASC and a Uranus-Neptune conjunction near the IC. In both cases, the Moon was opposite Saturn (tighter orb in the precession-corrected one).

The impression I get is that the varying positions of ASC, MC, house cusps and the moon between the moments of a tropical and sidereal solar return have something to tell us. If I'm not mistaken, only 4.5 hours passed between the two in Gianna's case, but it was already enough to add a second layer to the interpretation. I can't help to wonder if the arc between the two lunar positions, which gets wider and wider as we age, becomes a sort of sensitive zone for the year in question.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Isaac Starkman wrote:

James: Gianna Bryant is not a good example, as she was young, age 13....
It is better to use examples for peoples in age 40 or more.
I don’t have the location of death for Robert Zollers.


srsedna,

i agree with isaac here.... actually it might be better to start a new thread if you want to talk about gianna's chart... use her as an example if you'd like... maybe i will comment on a different thread on it.. maybe others will here too.. cheers james
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srsedna



Joined: 22 May 2019
Posts: 20

Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about these two?

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Chirac,_Jacques

https://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Jones,_Terry

PS: I'm still not sold on the concept of converse returns. I see how converse movement makes sense as a way of calculating primary directions, but actually going back in time to look at returns feels a bit... wrong. What is your actual experience with it, friends?
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu Jan 30, 2020 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks srsedna,

perhaps you could pick one with AA rated time and we could proceed on a new thread on this.. i would be up for it...

as for converse data - it appears alexander marr was influenced by the work of rc davison.. i am guessing at this, but these ideas are from a previous generation of astrologers who were into this... rc davisons book the technique of prediction is a good starting point to get more of an appreciation for this idea...

chiracs chart looks like a good starting point... we need to figure out important dates in his life and work backward... lets find some important dates for him..
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Isaac Starkman



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I checked 3 events for Jacques Chirac, using my rectification for 11.56.50GMT Asc 19Aqu23’ which is close to the recorded time of noon.
1. 7 May 1995 elected as President
In the rular return for 19 April, there is nothing , but in the tropical Uranus on IC and Sun on Desc,
In the demi lunar return for 4 May Jupiter on Asc and Venus on IC, while in tropical Saturn on IC , Mercury on Desc and Pluto on Asc-
2. 5 May 2002 reelected
In the lunar return Sun on Desc, Uranus on IC
In the converse lunar return Sun exactly on MC. In the tropical Jupiter close to Asc
3. 26 Sep 2019 death
In the lunar return for 7 Sep Pluto on IC
In the converse demi lunar return Sun, Saturn and Neptune on Desc, Mars, Pluto and Jupiter on MC
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srsedna



Joined: 22 May 2019
Posts: 20

Posted: Fri Jan 31, 2020 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Isaac,

I'm getting different angles for Chirac's last lunar return (Sep 7, tropical and precession corrected, 11:01 am). The highlights I think are ASC of the LR in natal h8, squaring (1 deg 19) natal Pluto in h6 and the MC of the return opposite (0 deg 45) natal Saturn in h12. Also, h8 cusp (Placidus) square natal ASC.

Node-based lunar return (Sep 17, 12:06 PM): Moon square natal Saturn (0 deg 57) in h12, Moon parallel natal chart ruler Uranus, (0 deg 19) ASC of the return semisquare natal Moon (0 deg 25)

I'll start a thread later to discuss the solar returns plus active progressions at the time of death.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have looked at chiracs chart before and although it is rated AA, i haven't been convinced of its accuracy.. i know this is weird and apparently it is gotten off a birth cert, but i am saying this because i have looked at his chart before and for some reason it doesn't resonate with me...

i do want to talk about some generalities here though.. back to the concept of lunar returns and having to use precession for a 90-95 accuracy rate.. as i said - this really gives credence to the sidereal system as i see it, in spite of what alexander marr concludes...

and, with regard to what mr. marr concludes, another very hot topic in astrological circles is the issue of relocated charts.. mr. marr suggests one has to do a relocated chart for the solar return.. does he advocate this for lunar returns as well?? if not, it seems problematic to me to advocate them for the solar return but not for the lunar return...

i just finished reading a book by dr. k s charak called 'a textbook of varshaphala'.. i am presently reading another book by him called 'predictive techniques in varshaphala... varshaphala is the word used in the indian branch of astrology called tajika for solar returns, or annual charts.. the indians have a whole system in place which seems much more sophisticated then anything i have seen in western astrology and this would include the work from traditional astrology literature which includes the importance of the profection lord for the year and etc. etc.. i don't know who borrowed from who here, but the profection year lord is referred to as the muntha in indian astrology and has an important role in arriving at the lord of the year, but is not automatically treated as the lord of the year as i understand it is in western traditional astrology...

but, what i wanted to express was dr. charaks idea on relocating the solar returns to the place a person is living... he comes down hard on this concept and pans it thoroughly..

let me quote you from page 15 of the book i am presently reading, although he said something similar in the previous work..

""significance of the place of birth.. it needs to be emphasized that the place of birth has a permanent impact on the life of a native... the calculation of the cusp of the ascendant in the annual chart... needs to be made from the place of birth no matter where the native resides at the time of the commencement of a given year of his life.... this means that the ascendant in the annual chart for a particular year of life can't be manipulated by changing one's place of residence.. one can cast the annual charts for several years in advance and study them beforehand in conjunction with the natal chart.. the suggestions of some astrologers to their consult-tors to move to a supposedly more appropriate location on the earth around the time of the annual return to ensure a more convenient or favourable ascendant during a particular year of life is nothing but an exercise in ignorance."""

now, i know there are some astrologers who advocate for the importance of relocation charts, myself included, but i have never advocated for the replacement of the relocation chart over the natal chart, whether natal or solar return...

so, right away there are some outstanding issues that we may not be in agreement with here and may not be able to move forward with any agreeable results..

my basic question to isaac - since you advocate for relocated solar returns based of alexander marrs work, what is yours or his position on lunar returns and location?? thanks.. james
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Isaac Starkman



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James: look at my post of 24 January, rule no. 1- all the return charts must be calculated to the place of resident.
Chirac: could you explain why you think his birth time is not correct? I have almost 50 events for him and for me it is beyond any doubt that the time is correct. Sun on MC, Moon in 10th, Neptune and Mars in 7th square MC and Sun, ruler of 7th- his infidelity and the tragedy of his daughter Laurence
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/first-lady-tells-of-chiracs-infidelity-9146029.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/laurence-chirac-dead-morte-daughter-jacques-chirac-french-president-dies-a6985406.html
His epoch, cast for 5 March 1932 2.31.35 UT Asc 23Sag51’, Moon 19Aqu16’ is more sharp: Venus, ruler of 4th, exactly on IC, square Pluto in 7th, Moon in exact opposition to helio Jupiter, both in harmonious aspects to MC
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james_m



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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

isaac,

i saw your rule 1, but in the case of queen elizabeths chart where we discussed the lunar return - and for all others - we can't know for sure just where the person is... so on the surface of this - it seems insane to suggest only a lunar or solar return works for the place where the person is at the time... how can one know? the fact is, unless you are the person - you can't! but, thank you for answering my question on do you use this philosophy for solar returns as it appears you do, by emphasizing what you said at point 1..

regarding chirac - i just don't jive with his chart.. that is not to say it isn't accurate.. it is to say i don't resonate with it, so i am less interested in looking at it... purely subjective on my part.. so of the 50 events for him - how can you know where he was at the time of the solar or lunar return? serious question.. i will ask it again...

so of the 50 events for chriac - how can you know where he was at the time of the solar or lunar returns you are using???
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Isaac Starkman



Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 141
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel

Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James: For the lunar return one should know only the place of residence and not the exact location he was at the moment of the lunar return. The person can be even 500 kilometers from his house at the time of the return, but as long as he is back to his home within days- it doesn’t matter the location he was.
In Chirac case this was an easy case as he was born and lived all his life in Paris, except for a short period when he was in USA. One doesn’t need to know even the exact location of his home – enough to know that it was in Paris.
The problem is with adventurers who change the place of residence constantly or for some famous persons who have several houses and it indeed difficult to know where he was for a specific lunar return. In such cases one can’t cast a lunar return.
Lunar returns are not the main technique for rectification or for prediction. We have enough other systems that don’t require knowing the place of residence: primary, secondary, PSSR, transits, etc.
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for your additional comments isaac - james
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
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Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An Overview of the Birth vs. Residence Return Controversy

There has always been disagreement between astrologers who believe that solar returns (and lunar returns and derivative charts such as the demi-lunar or ennead) must be calculated for the place of birth or the place of residence. India (K.S. Charak is Indian) has always insisted on the birth place location for return charts. I'm not sure where the residence preference originated, but western Fagan school siderealists have always insisted the residence location should be used to cast return charts. (However lately on Jim Eshelman's Solunars forum there has been some discussion about the value of birth place return charts. But I don't have that reference at the moment.)

The residence return proponents highlight planets near the angles as Isaac has done here. The birth location astrologers read the entire chart and pay attention to houses. To a small extent I've tested both birth and residence charts for events. I've found that the birth solar return (always using the sidereal year) makes use of house positions, but the residence chart does tend to highlight planets on angles.

I remember one case where the person was in a car accident. The solar return ennead (derivative time division of the solar return) birth location chart had Mars on the 6th house cusp, but the residence chart had Mars on the ascendant. How do we know what Mars on the ascendant means?

We wouldn't know it was an accident without referring to the birth place chart. The western Fagan sidereal school tends to interpret planets only in the psychological sense, so Mars on the ascendant wouldn't especially indicate an accident, but rather the person's feelings for the month. Probably for a complete picture of a month (or any time division of a return chart) it would be best to study both birth place and residence charts.

But then there is the increased complexity of using the tropical or sidereal year for the calculation of solar, lunar or any other return chart. We are a long way from being able to settle the controversy of the best way to calculate and read return charts for accurate readings. Those of us who have settled firmly on the sidereal year have noted that long range transits in return charts to natal planets are precise using the sidereal year, but miss in tropical year charts. This can be tested in any well timed birth chart for nations or cities or in the charts of elderly national leaders or others in he public eye.
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