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Is violence and/or psychopathy hereditary?

 
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StellarTiggy



Joined: 17 May 2011
Posts: 288

Posted: Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:14 pm    Post subject: Is violence and/or psychopathy hereditary? Reply with quote

I have an acquaintance with a history of violence both domestically and otherwise. I'm a little surprised that she has passed through life without getting locked up. She has a Mars-Saturn-Pluto stellium closely placed together in Libra in the 3rd house. Astrology doesn't lie. Does it? She is soon due for birth and her child, depending in timing, will very likely have the exact same Mars-Saturn-Pluto conjunction in Capricorn. The first thing that came to mind is the child will be violent. Jupiter might also conjoin that stellium in the child's chart so perhaps will simmer it. I saw those same planets square her own stellium and thought that relationship might end worse. I'm not sure what to think. Has anyone worked with this type or configuration before?
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 1014

Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello - I am moving this to the natal forum since it isn't a traditional question. Pluto is not a traditional planet.

One thing I would also wonder is what is the condition of Venus in the woman's chart, as lord of those planets in Libra? If a planet is essentially poor but is received by its dispositor and it is dignified, that can aid the planet to work better. If not... then you get the idea. Also, some other things might be going on we are unaware of without a chart, such as the luminaries in hard aspect with those planets or those planets either lording the chart or aspecting the ascendant lord. I often think of Moon-Mars, Moon-Uranus and/or Sun-Pluto hard aspects as suspect with other indicators of violence, for example. I doubt very much that the conjunction in the 3rd that you mentioned is the only thing difficult in her chart if she is violent.

I don't see the Capricorn conjunction as difficult as the Libra one. In both cases Saturn is dignified. Is the woman's chart a day or night chart? At night, Saturn can be more cruel. In the day, Mars can be more violent. Mars is essentially dignified and in mutual reception with Saturn in the case of the child. It depends a lot on the house and sect placement of those planets too but Capricorn is a sign where Mars is more controlled and has less tendency for violence. That means though that their planets will likely square their mother's and could lead to a very difficult relationship.
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 819

Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't going to say, but as Tanit has commented I will, that in my opinion a Mars Saturn Pluto conjunction does not indicate psychopathic traits, and I can't find anywhere in 1982 where this conjunction is exact in Libra, with the three planets even close to one degree orbs with each other.

Saturn is only implicated in psychopathy when it natally aspects Chiron and Venus, using hard 22.5 degree aspects and one degree orbs. I am also suspicious of it when it aspects the Moons Nodes and Venus, likewise with hard aspects and one degree orbs, as always. And even then there are exceptions, Uranus being part of these aspect patterns changes the meaning, and when these patterns aspect the chart angles whilst one angle aspects the Moons Nodes, that is a classic signature of fame, you see it in all kinds of famous people, from genuinely talented singers and smart people on the world stage, to talentless "stars".

Mars Saturn Pluto could well manifest as a talented musician. The typical signature I look for is Mars Neptune with a middle planet connecting them, especially Mars Chiron Jupiter Neptune, which is a great magnifier of the Neptune energy through Mars. An example of Mars Saturn Pluto, with Uranus and possibly the Moon, is Ian Curtis of Joy Division, maybe his wonderful music was more Pluto than Neptune. That Saturn Pluto square of 1955 and 1956, Scorpio/Leo produced a lot of people who could bring the energy of Pluto through their Saturn, through personal planets. Nobody knows Ian Curtis' time of birth, unfortunately.

Mars also seems to be significant in the charts of great artists, such as Rembrandt and Lowry. Mars could have something to do with Duende.

A conjunction of Mars, Saturn and Pluto in Capricorn suggests the possibility of musical talent especially. Capricorn is a mysterious sign, with a strong spiritual streak.

I don't find Mars linked to psychopathy, I have noticed Venus to be the culprit. And Neptune and Pluto are morally neutral, they are the extra power and genius that can be carried to personal planets or even the world stage (chart angles with Moons Nodes). Saturn can be suspect but only in certain patterns, that usually involve Venus, and not always even then.

I am still puzzling over what the psychology community actually mean by psychopathy, narcissism, toxicity etc. It is interesting to look at astrological charts in this respect. And weird that sometimes somebody can show both psychopathic and positive traits in the same chart, for me the jury is still out. A terrible parent can also have great genuine talents or be very intelligent, and pass these positive traits on to their children. They can also pass negative traits in a different, mutated form which are more vulnerable than evil, or expressed in a positive way. And because charts and their owners are so complex, it is difficult to extricate culpability from vulnerability. You can sometimes trace these traits back many generations, and wonder where they originally came from.

I would be much more wanting to know what this woman's Venus is aspecting.


Last edited by Fleur on Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 1014

Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I wasn't going to say, but as Tanit has commented I will, that in my opinion a Mars Saturn Pluto conjunction does not indicate psychopathic traits


I agree. I think there is a lot more going on we don't know about. They aren't even angular so I am not understanding the emphasis on personality and I would only regard Mars as problematic there really.

I have two close friends with Mars-Saturn conjunctions (and a few other acquaintances) in general and none are violent. I normally think of Saturn as a controlling influence over Mars in that aspect. The two have them on angles and struggle with self improvement and issues of inferiority though. One has the conjunction in the 7th and has had very bad luck in relationships, another has it in the 10th and has had to fight pretty hard to get ahead in career and lost her father at a young age. In the 3rd, I can see how it could make communications with others more difficult and probably lead to issues with early education and development. I know Pluto can add a different element to the conjunction but that alone is not enough.

Normally the temperament is going to be more clearly shown with the ascendant/lord and the luminaries, for example. I have a sibling with Mars and Saturn both essentially bad in opposition and they both aspect the ascendant and Mars lords the ascendant. They are tight on an angle on the ASC/DSC. She has been involved in domestic violence both ways (causing and receiving) and she struggles with self hatred and had a drug problem several times. She has attempted suicide as well. She has Pluto square her Sun too though. Some of the most violent women I have met have had issues with control and have had Sun-Pluto hard aspects with other indicators. One of the most important things to look at in any chart is the condition of the ascendant/lord and the luminaries to get a general idea on the overall happiness and health (whether mental or physical). Angles in general can be pretty significant too. Planets on angles are often expressed outwardly and if well functioning planets can be a source of strength over the life of the person. As always, benefics can mitigate difficult influences too or not.
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Phoenix9061210



Joined: 31 May 2017
Posts: 58

Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firstly, astrology is DEFINITELY able to show psychopathic traits in a person. One of the proofs of astrology is that an astrologer was given 20 charts and asked to pick out the four psychopaths for a TV station and she did it correctly!

I read Liz Greene 'the dark of the soul' on the subject. What you're looking for is tight orbs, excess water signs, and some specific aspects BUT, overall you are looking at the 'flow' of a chart.

Also though, a thought on this, is that while Ted Bundy was a killer. a few other thousand people were born that day that did not turn out to be killers. So astrology isn't everything it just speaks to tendencies.

My mother has a twin brother. The two of them are completely different.
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 819

Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have noticed that Mars aspects are what to expect in charts of suicides especially by drug overdose. Ian Curtis, the incredibly talented singer of Joy Division, committed suicide. Also the model Phyllis Major, born 9th January 1946 in Florida, died 25th March 1976, Los Angeles.wife of the singer Jackson Browne, committed suicide by drug overdose, and Mars was definitely the culprit, same with the model Nina Dyer, born 15th February 1930..

I once saw the chart of someone who died of a drug overdose, with a Mars Pluto opposition exactly across the Ascendant Descendant axis.

Maybe explains partly why talented musicians so often die of drug overdoses, if Mars is inviolved in both.


Last edited by Fleur on Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 1014

Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Firstly, astrology is DEFINITELY able to show psychopathic traits in a person. One of the proofs of astrology is that an astrologer was given 20 charts and asked to pick out the four psychopaths for a TV station and she did it correctly!


Are you talking about an episode of Unsolved Mysteries? That was my first exposure to natal charts and the reason I purchased my first natal chart book as a teen. The astrologer did this during a time when she could not use the internet or computer programs to look up charts of famous people. I thought it was a great episode.
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 819

Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ Phoenix,the Moon moves half a degree per hour, as you know, and I use one degree orbs, so twins could easily not share a Moon aspect. I noticed with the charts of the Bee Gee twins, that they died years apart as their different Ascendants were Solar Arc progressed to their Suns. (Solar Arc progressed angle to Sun does not always mean death, though I have seen people lose their father on this and other transits to the natal Sun, sometimes, and it could also indicate grandfather).
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damian



Joined: 21 May 2020
Posts: 1

Posted: Sun May 24, 2020 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

I think it's a very interesting subject that needs to be analysed from different points of view.
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