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Mutual reception by terms with debilities in a love horary

 
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Yair Alon



Joined: 16 Jul 2014
Posts: 126

Posted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:07 pm    Post subject: Mutual reception by terms with debilities in a love horary Reply with quote

Hello, everyone!

I would like to get some help on the analysis of this horary: will A have a relationship with B?


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L1 and L7 were chosen as signifiers, they are in mutual reception by terms, but there is no aspect between them (nor will be one with the movement of Mercury).

Despite the mutual reception, Jupiter is in Fall.

So, basically what I would like to know if the mutual reception by terms per se is enough to say that yes, there will be a relationship between them.

My first inclination was to say yes, but the lacking of aspects, the fall of Jupiter and the reception being only by terms made me doubt it. Maybe they are going to have some relationship, it will be good, but will not endure due to the querent signified by Jupiter?

PS: I see Saturn on the 7th, but I usually disregard it.

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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
L1 and L7 were chosen as signifiers, they are in mutual reception by terms, but there is no aspect between them (nor will be one with the movement of Mercury).


Mercury is in its own terms in Scorpio at 22-23 degrees. If two planets are in aversion but are in signs they would receive, most horary authors would not put much stock on those planets leading to perfection of the matter. Deb Houlding says reception describes an aspect, which there is none.

What about the Moon? It is translating the light of Jupiter to Mars in the 5th with reception from Mars and a trine with a dignified planet is strong, so Mars takes on the matter. I can only hypothesize what that means but you are the astrologer and will have to make sense of what it means in the situation (which I know nothing about).
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Yair Alon



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Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello, Tanit.

Maybe you’re using Ptolemy’s table of terms. According to Dorotheus and Egyptian terms, 19-23 Scorpio is in the terms of Jupiter. In that case, would that count as an aspect? Enough to perfect the matter?

What do you mean by aversion? 30 and 150 degrees? If this is the case, Mercury and Jupiter are not in aversion, but only out of aspect.

As for the moon, which reception do you see? Triplicity of Mars? I didn’t think about using it because it was a question Z made regarding two other people, A and B (as I called in my OP). SO, techinically, I think the Moon would show something about Z asking the question, right? Not about A and B being together.

In any case, the trine to Mars and then the sextile to Venus looks pretty obvious as to the existence of at least a sexual relationship. But again, who with whom? Mars is not the ruler of neither A nor B.

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Tanit3333



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Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What do you mean by aversion?


A lack of Ptolemaic aspect. There is no aspect. Some astrologers use the word aversion to describe a lack of aspect which is like a wall between two people where they lack common ground. In a romance horary they tend to show lack of mutual interest.

Quote:
As for the moon, which reception do you see? Triplicity of Mars? I didn’t think about using it because it was a question Z made regarding two other people, A and B (as I called in my OP). SO, techinically, I think the Moon would show something about Z asking the question, right? Not about A and B being together.


The Moon is always important in horary. The Moon applies to and is received by triplicity from a strong Mars, which also disposits the querent.

If this is a question of someone asking about other people in a relationship that was in no way clear in your post.
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EleanorLouise



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Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally see nothing here for the foreseeable future. (Enter into a relationship)

I'll be back with my reasoning.
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Tanit3333



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Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think clarification is necessary to even approach this question. From what I understand now, the querent is asking about two other people having a relationship so I am confused by what significators are even being used here. Jupiter is clearly interacting with Mars though via the translation of light of the Moon.
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EleanorLouise



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Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit3333 wrote:
I think clarification is necessary to even approach this question. From what I understand now, the querent is asking about two other people having a relationship so I am confused by what significators are even being used here. Jupiter is clearly interacting with Mars though via the translation of light of the Moon.



yep that is true...
reading what the astrologer has shared...Person X is asking a third party question about Person A & B. So just working from that assumption...Mars is in 11th and rules 11th and 12th since I would turn the chart (personally) if this is truly a third party question.


whoever jupiter is, Jupiter is in fall and angular. I found when a debilitated planet is angular they usually openly express their debilitated behaviors. Behaviors that usually muck up things especially if this were saturn. They have no influence in the situation and may not really be treated as someone to take serious.
Since jupiter is angular whoever jupiter really is may act careless and have too much faith in their ability. This might bite whoever jupiter is in the behind. It could also be that they just feed into the natural fantasy manner of Jupiter.

Jupiter is as well in first few degrees of a sign and this can be seen as a debility as well. I definitely have found the last degrees of a sign to be a debility more times than not. The beginning of the sign I find to be a lack of thinking things through, a thought/solution hasn't crossed their mind, or just a lack of directions. Though I definitely find more so the last degress of a sign to not be favorable as all. For this chart, jupiter is in the beginning of capricorn.
I find jupiter to have too much to deal with for it to be able manifest something with the other in real life.

Moon to me would show the play out of events between A and B.
Mars rules a benefic house, in a benefic house, and in own sign. But mars nature will always be there. Mars is usually quarrels, strife, and contentions.

I find dispositors to show the nature of the person once you really get to know them, at least something not easily glean from the surface.

I remember in one chart...(this was a love chart) the pursuer's depositor was mars. It was not dignified and actually ill dignified. Anyway the pursuer said things to the person that was degrading and easily taken the wrong way. The person who was pursued was in their house of joy, but saturn (naturaly apprehensive), retrograde (probably wants to pull away,) Saturn was conjunct ascendant. Saturn easily reject them and became cold. The pursue wasn't charming enough to charm saturn lol


your (chart maker's) comments about the terms. I don't find terms to show much about how one party feels about the other. I find terms to just add strength to the planet/helps the planets ability to do something. I mostly ignore terms. I focus more so on sign, nature of the sign, house it is in, if it's debilitated/fall/exalted. I really haven't found much in terms from the various charts I have practice and people mainly ask about love.
triplicity, term, faces has more to do with the planets ability itself and way of behavior than really how they view the other person.


Like Tanit said...it's hard to translate what mars is without more back info. I don't have the = amount of years of studies and experience as tanit.

My main reason for saying no is I don't feel Jupiter has much strength to create anything in reality. On top of that there is no aspect between main rulers.


I am very curious about this jupiter mars interaction. I have nothing of substance to add to that. I'm just sharing why I think at least one of the party's assuming Jupiter is the party.

Now I think signification could change...if B is friends with A...then a different house should be considered than the one I am using.

If A & B are co-workers than that could change houses that could be used. (example- boss and employee; wondering if they will get into a romantic relationship)

So take what i say as nothing more than a limited observation from a young astrologer/hobbyist astrologer.

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Tanit3333



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Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saturn in the house of the astrologer makes me think we are missing information and cannot properly interpret this. In order to interpret a chart like this someone would need to know what the question is truly asking and how this is meant to help the querent. Is querent completely uninvolved in the matter and a spectator or are they emotionally/romantically invested in it? If they are emotionally invested, the chart is going to speak to that because ultimately it would be a question of is quesited going to choose the other party or me? If someone is asking about a relationship developing but them not wanting it to, that can lead to negative indicators that don't necessarily mean negative things for the two parties that are not the querent. It could be negative for the querent. That is maybe what is going on with Jupiter.

One interpretation I have read about for a planet in fall, particularly so when changing from its dignity to its fall I would gather, is a fall from grace in some way. At 0 degrees (at the last 5 degrees or first 5 degrees of a sign), according to Bonatti it is neither in Sag nor Cap but is in a state of unpredictability of some sort. Perhaps the querent is obsessed (Scorpio influences) with the quesited and learned that they are interested in another person and this damaged their view of them in some way but they are not sure yet how they feel about it. I can jump to scenarios all day without more information though (since I tend to paint pictures in my head of significators). People who are unpredictable tend to have early/late signification in natal charts, for example. It could be that the querent recently discovered something about the quesited that made them view that person in a more negative way and they are still sorting this out for themselves. It could also be literal where the quesited had a major life change that was bad in some way and this change is still developing. Capricorn is a melancholic sign and a sign of Saturn and can perhaps represent more mature, restrictive changes in some way to relationships, such as wanting to date one person long term versus wanting to date many people. When a planet lacks essential dignity though, it often doesn't have much vested interest or perhaps strong, direct inclination in the querent's wishes as well but I don't know if that necessarily means they would lack interest in other people. Usually if a sig is negative it is negative for the person asking the question if the question involves them on a personal level.

I agree that an angular and debilitated planet tends to behave poorly for the querent, although Jupiter by nature usually only harms by accident. The quesited in its own ascendant also would seem to suggest lack of interest in the querent but they also seem open and not hiding anything. There is a lack of Ptolemaic aspect to querent and they approach from Mars' exaltation, with a trine an easy aspect via translation of light. Moon is in a fruitful sign for that connection, with Mars-Jupiter being fairly passionate. I would say take into consideration physical descriptions of people involved to better understand significators. Mars in Scorpio could be an attractive/sexy person with dark hair/complexion and sharp, penetrating eyes. Mars dignified and oriental is valiant. Mercury in Scorpio influenced by Saturn might be a bookish person who has some extra weight or is voluptuous (phlegmatic). Lilly says Mercury oriental shows a defect in the complexion.
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Yair Alon



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Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:15 pm    Post subject: Further clarification Reply with quote

Thanks for all the input. I come with more clarification, as asked.

Before that, I should say that I only did not give further clarification because that was the way I approched the chart.

Yes, this is a third-part question. Z is asking a question about A and B.

As I analyse the chart, I wouldn’t give a significator to Z, and I chose L1 to and L7 to B (since they have no other connection other than getting to know each other - they are not friend, nor coworkers etc).

That’s why I didn’t even think about using Mars in the horary. It only came to my attention when you mentioned it here, and the translation of light. But as for me, if I’d have to say something, I’d say this is not relevant to A/B or Z. But that’s also why I posted, to get some feedback on interpretations.

Why do you say Mars is significator of the querent, Tanit?

In any case, further clarification.

Z was romantically involved with A, and they broke up. Now A started to go out with B, and therefore Z wants to know if A and B wll have a relationship.

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Tanit3333



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Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why do you say Mars is significator of the querent, Tanit?


I didn't say that it was and in fact I think it is more likely either the other party asked about or another person entirely that Jupiter will have a relationship with. What I said was to better analyze the significators to make sense of who they might be, which is why I mentioned physical descriptions.
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Yair Alon



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Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see. So B will have a relationship with another person which is not the querent nor A?

The physical descriptions you mentioned apply to the querent and to B, as I see, but there is zero chance of a relationship between those two.

The Mars in Scorpio description applies somewhat to A (except for the valiant) and in that case it could have a relationship with the querent, since they were already in a relationship in the past.

That being the case, let's assume A is Mars and B is Jupiter. Will they have a relationship then?

How would you assign the signifiers at that point? I'm a little lost on who is who.
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Tanit3333



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Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 7:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
How would you assign the signifiers at that point? I'm a little lost on who is who.


Again, I have no idea on assigning them based on descriptions since I have never met these people or know what they look like or even who is male or female since no information was provided. Again, Saturn is in the 7th and I don't have enough information to read this myself so I cannot help other than give you information for you to read it yourself. Jupiter is a masculine planet in a feminine sign, Mars is a masculine planet in a feminine sign and Mercury is a neutral planet in a feminine sign, which doesn't help much for gender signification.

If it were me, I would have given the 1st house and its lord the querent (is querent female?), 7th house and its lord their ex (probably male since Jupiter usually is) and then looked at whether the 7th lord showed interest in the querent or another planetary body. That is what this chart is showing: Jupiter with lack of interest in querent and interest in another, which would suggest the ex is interested in another person. Then I would try to figure out if that other person is the person I asked about via planetary signification or maybe an entirely unrelated person since horary can show that there is another possibility, such as them not dating that 3rd party but another person.
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Yair Alon



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Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see. Thanks, Tanit.

And in your analysis, the ex (L7) is interested in Mars. Will they have a relationship, since it was the first question?

Besides the translation of light of the Moon, there is no aspect between Mars and Jupiter.

The Moon trine with Mars was profected some 4 hours after the question was posed, what would that mean in your oppinion?

Thanks again for the huge help
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Tanit3333



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Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Translation of light can lead to perfection, which means a relationship since that was your question. The translating body brings the other two parties together. A trine is an easy aspect and does not require reception but Mars being so strong helps alleviate Jupiter's debility significantly in that aspect as well. Often the planetary body that transfers the light somehow aids the connection. The Moon in the 9th might describe travels, religion, academics, etc. The Moon is received by both Jupiter and Mars, which is additionally helpful in translation of light. The Moon can represent the querent but it also just represents the question. If the querent is not aiding a connection for them with another person then I would assume it is just answering their question. This is just how I would approach my own chart though. You created this question and chart so hopefully you can interpret it how you see fit.
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Yair Alon



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Posted: Wed Dec 11, 2019 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you very much
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