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Solar Returns and Profections
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Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 223
Location: Stockholm

Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello all,
Here comes some random comments, not necessarily proper organised...

I choose the "Mother dies" alternative.

The varshaphala gives me conflicting messages.

Yearlord Mars with ketu in lagna in scorpio could give some loss during the year.
Muntha lord in 12th house gives same message. saturn as muntha lord is 4th lord so could indicate both mother issues, and location to distant place as well.

Ithasala yoga's first lord applying to 7th lord could indicate marriage.
(This is true when counting lagna from muntha and yearlord as well).

sub period mercury running in vimshottari dasha is 4th lord which both pointing to mother and relocation. But is in 7th house, so marriage is not out of the question.
But in transit, in jun 1985 transiting mercury subperiod lord, is transiting 4th house, clearly indicating 4th house matters mostly important (mother, relocation).

So what is it ? Death of Mother or relocation.
Due to the intense 8th house activation of moon (mother) by transit (sade sati) I conclude that the intense emotional time indicated points to loss of mother.

-Solar return saturn is to the degree smack on natal moon in 8th house.
Sade sati could indicate loss of mother.
In transit saturn and ketu over moon in 8th house, hard time emotionally, pointing to same thing.

The fullmoon eclipse is in may 1985 22 libra. Right on that 8th house moon again. So family changes, emotions, mother seems to the right choice.

Even though the varshaphala is conflicting. It would be interesting to see the result Very Happy
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Stefan



Joined: 31 May 2012
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Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another key issue forgot to mentioning in above post, that pointing to the 8th house moon.

is that Komilla was running major period of saturn and a subperiod of Mercury.
Both saturn and mercury is in a moon ruled nakshatra. Saturn in shravana
and mercury in Hasta.
Both major period and subperiod pointing to 8th house moon. Thus seems that the time is giving emotional changes which could indicate family or mother issues.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

first off, i want to share a chart of komilla with primary directions on the outer wheel.. this chart is generated off morinus software.... the settings are set as outlined in ben dykes recent translation from arabic of abu ma'shar... the significant primary direction for around the time that aj gives of mid june 1985 is jupiter to the opposition of mercury... as one can see in the chart, komilla has a number of exalted or dignified planets in her chart... saturn, venus, mercury and sun... it is a strong potentially very productive chart given the strength of these placements... i know there is a name for it in indian astrology when you have 4 planets dignified, but i don't know what it is... a particular yoga...

jupiter is in the 12th... i was never familiar with this idea that jupiter in the 12th, or that generally the 12th house could signify living in a foreign land... that is a new idea for me.. i mostly thought of that as more 9th house, but jupiter would definitely fit symbolically for such a thing... in komillas chart jupiter rules the midheaven and it is located in the 12th whole sign... the profection data really highlight jupiter for this time frame as well... i will share that chart after the primary direction chart... mars in gemini is in opposition to the sag midheaven... i tend to think of mars in gemini as a very moveable placement and one that might also be set up to live in a foreign place as well as sag on the midheaven..



below is komillas chart with the profection data for mid june 1985..



as you can see in the above chart, the emphasis of the profected ascendant is on jupiter... profected jupiter in turn is close to saturn in the 10th house area, or 11th whole sign... moon is in the 6th house - 7th whole sign area very close to natal mercury position. and finally, but perhaps most importantly - pro sun is close to an opposition to saturn in cap in the 10/11 house area.... i admit i am fudging the house systems here, but it is just how i do things... all of this looks more work related, then death of mom related...

now, lets look at the solar return chart...



the one challenge here for me in the choices is to go with death of mom based off the position of solar return saturn on the moon in the biwheel chart i share - all being in the 8th sign of the natal chart... however, i don't know if this is the case.. we see moon-jupiter approaching the midheaven - again focusing on the travel signs sag - in connection to what might be komillas work ambitions.. the ascendant in early scorpio is technically the 9th sign to pisces - again a potential travel theme... mars and south node also participate in this, all in scorpio - 9th sign.. midheaven in the solar return chart is in the 6th sign and close to komillas sun position which indicates something about greater status being received or reached in this particular year, backed up with the moon-jupiter in sag up in the midheaven vicinity....

so, i am guessing this "2. Komilla got an overseas posting with a multinational company where she stayed for many years. "

good exercise aj!!! thanks for doing this! it will be fun to see the results... my approach is using primary directions, profections for the approx time and data from the 1984 solar return... the transit data for mid june 1985 has mars-mercury in gemini in opposition to the solar return moon-jupiter conjunction, again all emphasizing the travel signs - gemini and sag - which we find in her natal chart on the midheaven axis... work seems to be the thing here and traveling to a different country seems to make the most amount of sense to me..
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

in thinking about this more, there are so many ways to rationalize the conclusion.. and this i think is the dilemma that astrologers face.. what do you give priority to?

so, in thinking of option 1 - " Komilla was married." i could alter my emphasis to say the primary direction of jupiter to mercury - the 7th lord might have to do with marriage instead.. jupiter as 1st lord meeting mercury as 7th lord seems like an obvious theme for person meeting or marrying here.. however, what does jupiter as ruler of the ascendant, located in the 12th have to do with this?? also, what role does saturn as profection lord for the year, and ruler of jupiter in the 12th have to do with any of this?? and we see saturn - the profection lord of the year under consideration in the 12th house of the solar return chart.. how does that fit in with marriage? it seems like an astrologer is challenged by all the possibilities and needs to find a way to prioritize what is most important and why it is most important...

in reading the book - https://bendykes.com/product/pn4-on-the-revolutions-of-the-years-of-nativities/ Persian Nativities IV: On the Revolutions of the Years of Nativities one quickly picks up on ben dykes translation of ma'shars work as indeed prioritizing to find the distribution lord, using Egyptian terms and a number of methods to arrive at what planet, or planets are ultimately determining the most important role used to prioritize and be able to predict accurately... i can't say i have the method down by a long shot, and it goes without saying that this method will run into conflict with other systems, such as the dasa system, or systems used in indian astrology...

all this brings me back to thereses example of catherines chart and a few comments i want to make on it.. as i see it in retrospect and how i interpret it in the present sense, jupiter in cancer in the natal chart is in an 8th or 9th house position dependent on what house system one uses.. i see the event for catherine of most significance was the inheritance from her sister of the money, or trip.. without this gift from her sister, there is no holiday or trip! so, indeed jupiter acts as a positive force in cancer - the sign of the family, but in a way that gives more emphasis to the 8th house concept of inheritance, then it does to the 9th house concept of travel.. one could say they are directly related and interconnected, to which i would agree.. but i think the fact that it was a jupiter profection year, with a well placed jupiter tells much of the story.. which brings me back to aj 's example on komillas chart...

the profection lord is saturn, again like thereses example, in a dignified position in capricorn and in the 10/11 house area of the chart.. it is the most elevated planet in komillas chart... there is some mutual reception between saturn and moon - exaltation-triplicity, with the 2 planets in square to one another... saturn aspects the moon-venus according to indian astrology aspect doctrine.. saturn rules the 11th and 12th, whereas moon rules the 5th.... if this saturn is emphasized for this particular year, what exactly is being emphasized? is it an 11th /12th house dynamic that is being emphasized, or a 5th house being emphasized? saturn rules the 3/4 houses in the solar return, while moon rules the 9th... how does one factor all of these considerations?? i still believe this is about a job in a foreign country based on more of an emphasis of saturn, but i could be wrong....

another interesting dynamic to komillas chart is the aspect connection of jupiter trine mars and moon... these are the 1st/5th and 9th rulers brought together in a raja yoga which is very positive... i suspect anything emphasizing any of these planets would be more favourable then not... marriage or job opportunity in a foriegn county sound more likely then death of mother here based on my read of this too...

but i will be the first to admit that my own subjective will cloud my conclusions.. so, ultimately i go back to what does all the data serve? what is the main consideration astrologically? until an astrologer figures that out, they are left guessing as to the nature of any event... i can work with solar arc directions, primary directions ( the options are overwhelming fwiw ), profections, solar returns, transits, dasas and etc - but of them all - how does one decide which is the most relevant and the key consideration in it all? i am still working on this, so my answer is subject to my present dilemma in this area.. until this is corrected, i am pulling at straws... thanks for the exercises aj and therese... my development is an ongoing challenge and learning curve.. hopefully someone benefits from me saying all this... i am stating what is on my mind at present which might or might not be of value to others here.. at least you all get an idea where i am at presently..
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is the zodiac direct primary directions list from age 0-25.. i am curious if it is visible in the manner i am sharing here... if not, i will try to fix it...

i have tried 4 or 5 times to get the text bigger, but can't figure it out via the postimage.org site.. i see it bigger on my screen, but am unable to transfer it as such, so i will admit the primary direction data i am sharing here is hard to see...

fwiw, here is the data for for late 1984, and into 1985..

sextile of saturn direct to moon november 17 1984
trine of jupiter direct to mercury march 18 1985
sextile of saturn direct to jupiter june 3 1985

without going into great detail - the question is how long is a primary direction operative for? what is the window of time it covers? perhaps the saturn to moon signifies the death of mom, but it doesn't conform with the other primary directions... the 2nd one that is the one i mentioned in my first post, might be used to argue for marriage... finally the last one -sextile of saturn direct to jupiter would argue for the job overseas..

again, i am back to my previous post discussing the importance of having a system with a hierarchy that one can put in place all the other bits of info gotten off the different methods one might be using..



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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1513
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ wrote (28 September) regarding the ennead:
Quote:
In this case, you only have June to worry about so there are only two charts to erect and choose between if indeed ennead charts are truly decisive in the context of yearly prediction. One or the other should reflect the event promised in the solar return.

Of course you are right. I think I was more or less talking to myself here as I hadn't really looked at the chart but only noted the ennead dates. However I was much put off by James' comment that followed yours, and decided then and there that my almost 80 year old self wasn't going to take that kind of flack from a mere youth in his 60s. So I put the chart away thinking it was time to withdraw from Skyscript, and notified a few friends of my decision.

However, tonight I decided to look at Komilla's chart again and have decided on the event. (It took some study to fall into place.) But it's late so I'll post my thoughts tomorrow. I'm also taking some time to compare interpretations in Varshaphal texts to see if they apply to the way I am interpreting the SR chart. Or have I messed up again with techniques I've been testing??
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
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Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
here is the zodiac direct primary directions list from age 0-25.. i am curious if it is visible in the manner i am sharing here... if not, i will try to fix it...

It is showing only as a blank blue box saying 'image not found' as of 6 MDT 1 October.
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map



Joined: 23 Nov 2013
Posts: 50

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:57 pm    Post subject: Chart Reply with quote

I go with job and overseas option. I consider saturn powerful being dasa lord.
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Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1513
Location: California, USA

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ wrote:
Quote:
As far as how to perceive or use profection I think it is up to the practitioner to decide. Isn't that the purpose of the topic? If anyone wants to use subs, transits or whatever it's okay by me. It's not my thread.

These topic threads can be started by anyone, and anyone can join in the discussion. The threads don't belong to anyone in particular. They're only forums for discussion, learning and sharing.

Quote:
Most western systems seem to prefer a moving approach. You could move the progressed ascendant dynamically to see what planets or cusps are activated natially....

I've been trying to figure out when profections went from the simple advancement of one natal sign per year to adding increments for shorter time periods. This seems to be definitely a western innovation. Even D.P. Saxena who translated Tijak Neelkanthi (Ranjan Publications, 2007) into English comments:

Quote:
"It seems that Muntha has been taken with some modifications on account of the language from Persian, the language of the "Yavanas"...As there are 12 signs in the zodiac the Muntha goes to the other sign after the span of 12 months. As Muntha is supposed to transit 30 degrees (one sign) in a year we can say that it transits 2 degrees and 30 minutes by 36 days."

Tijak Neelkanthi, p. 136.

But this quote doesn't make it at all clear exactly what was in the original text. B.V. Raman's family can be depended upon to remain with original classical texts. In Varshaphal: The Hindu Progressed Horoscope (Raman Publications, 1969) there is no mention of the small increments, only the progression by natal house for each year of life, the cycle repeated every 12 years.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aj,

the data in what is now the blue box was of primary directions for the first 25 years of her life... however, the relevant pds for this time frame 1985, are listed in that post too... i share them again here -

james_m wrote:

fwiw, here is the data for for late 1984, and into 1985..

sextile of saturn direct to moon november 17 1984
trine of jupiter direct to mercury march 18 1985
sextile of saturn direct to jupiter june 3 1985



therese,

Therese Hamilton wrote:

I've been trying to figure out when profections went from the simple advancement of one natal sign per year to adding increments for shorter time periods. This seems to be definitely a western innovation.


if you get round to reading the ben dykes book on abu ma'shar which i think you said you bought - you will see that abu ma'shar was using smaller increments for shorter time periods... is he a western innovator??
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
Posts: 235

Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
AJ wrote:
Quote:
As far as how to perceive or use profection I think it is up to the practitioner to decide. Isn't that the purpose of the topic? If anyone wants to use subs, transits or whatever it's okay by me. It's not my thread.

These topic threads can be started by anyone, and anyone can join in the discussion. The threads don't belong to anyone in particular. They're only forums for discussion, learning and sharing.

Yes, I principally agree with you Therese but maybe where we part ways is I do think that contributors should honor the main gist of a topic and there should always be some respect towards the originator of a topic and their intent. It seems only courteous, especially when there is not much in the way of moderation to sort such things out. It's hard enough to keep from burrowing new rabbit holes otherwise. Most derailed threads die rather quickly IMO before achieving anything close to there first intention. It's inevitable that some side paths like this one happen. So long as they are short and don't interrupt the main flow, it's not a problem.

If its much off topic, then a new one should be started. We are at that juncture now. If you wish to pursue this stream of thought then you should start a new one, but I have said my piece.
Be Well.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to keep this topic on protections and the solar return chart which is what I'm working on now.

Komilla's Natal and Navamsa Charts



At first this natal chart bothered me somewhat because for interpretation I depend on planets near equal house cusps, and Komilla’s chart doesn’t have any in those positions. So does this point to an ordinary life, nothing really standing out? I’m not sure. Also an ascendant at 25 degrees produces a house dilemma: whole sign houses or equal cusps at house centers?

So to move on to the profection for her 22nd year. The profection is in Capricorn, the natal 11th house which is supposed to be beneficial. It’s also supposed to be good if the profection lord joins the profection sign which happens in this case as natal Saturn is in Capricorn. So from the profection I would eliminate the death of the mother.

A Capricorn profection places natal Rahu in Cancer in the 7th and natal Moon in the 10th; transiting profection or Muntha lord exalted Saturn is in the degree of natal Moon. So the Capricorn profection emphasizes houses 7 (marriage or partnership) and 10th (change in status due to exalted Saturn on profected 7th lord Moon). (I haven’t studied profections enough to know if this is a common way of looking at natal houses from the profected ascendant.)

Komilla's Solar Return Chart



Looking at the solar return chart alone from different angles (without the natal bi-wheel), I can honestly see why various astrologers could chose any one of the three options. So how to choose a correct event among the choices?

If we first look at the most angular planets, there are the nodes crossing the asc/desc axis with transiting Mercury at the top of the chart in Leo in the same degree as the nodes. This is the dominant angular configuration of the annual chart. The nodes have to do with relationships, and Mercury is the lord of natal 7th of marriage.

Rahu stands alone in the SR 7th. It’s in the Sun’s star in the 10th (elevation in status) and in Venus sub. Venus is SR 7th lord and in SR 11th, (a marriage support house) conjunct Mercury, natal 7th lord in natal 7th.

Transiting exalted Saturn is in the degree of natal Moon, both in Rahu’s star which goes back to SR Rahu in 7th.

Natal Jupiter in SR 4th is in Rahu’s star (in SR 7th) and Mercury (natal 7th lord) sub. If the 4th rules the mother, this position of Jupiter would be fortunate for her rather than pointing to her death.

Looking at Komilla’s 1984 solar return this way, marriage could be predicted.

Other points:
The SR Moon and Jupiter are transiting in Ketu’s star in the 2nd SR house. This could represent a gain in earning ability OR an increase in family (2nd house) due to marriage. Ketu’s star: Ketu is in natal 11th, gain AND the 11th is also a support house for marriage. SR Ketu is in the SR 1st, a house very significant for Komilla in a personal way.

Transiting exalted Saturn is in the degree of natal Moon, in either the 12th or 1st SR house depending on the house system used. These are in Rahu’s star, Rahu being in the SR 7th. But if Saturn and the natal Moon are considered to be in the 12th house, that could point to foreign residence. Some texts place foreign travel in the 7th as well as the 12th. One of Rahu's meanings also relates to foreign countries.

Ketu on the SR ascendant is in Saturn’s star, placing Saturn either in the 1st or 12th.

If we take the ascendant star, 3 degrees of Scorpio is in Jupiter star (SR Jupiter in 2nd) and Rahu sub (SR Rahu in 7th).

So 11th is either gain, a gift or a support house for marriage.

2nd house is either increase in family or increased earning ability.

The 10th house (location of Rahu’s star lord Sun) can point to increased status either through marriage or a new employment position. Rahu’s sub lord Venus is in SR 11th, again profit or gain of some sort or a support marriage house.

Natal 5th lord in the 8th would not be good for children, but as 5th lord might be helpful in other ways.

I haven't noticed something like this before, but Komilla's navamsa Rahu and Venus are on her 1984 SR ascendant in Scorpio, and navamsa Ketu and Mercury are on the SR 7th cusp conjunct SR Rahu in Taurus (Mercury being 7th lord).
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

therese, the problem with the older solar fire version you are using is although it puts the birth chart in the inner wheel with solar return on the outer wheel, it puts all of the planets in the solar return houses, not the birth chart houses... point of fact is the birth chart is the most important chart for consideration.. everything else stems from it! if you are putting birth chart planets in the solar return chart- as the software does for you in your post immediately above this one - it is really secondary to putting the solar return planets in the place of how they land in the natal chart...

that is how i see it and how ben dykes emphasizes it according to his latest book which i keep on mentioning... i thought this way beforehand, but i bears repeating again here... we are all struggling with creating a hierarchy for how these charts are to be read.. i continue to want to have this discussion and your biwheel brings it up again which is why i say what i do.. i am not saying looking at it both ways isn't useful, only that i believe the emphasis needs to be on the natal chart before the solar return chart... perhaps this will solicit more of a conservation on this..



regarding monthly solar returns and profections for june 1985 off komillas natal chart - here they are for consideration...

first the monthly solar return..



AJ wrote:

Here are the subs for the main Capricorn profection for Kamala if anyone needs them.
09/04/1984 Ca
10/04/1984 Aq
11/04/1984 Pi
12/04/1984 Ar
01/04/1985 Ta
02/04/1985 Ge
03/04/1985 Ca
04/04/1985 Le
05/04/1985 Vi
06/04/1985 Li
07/04/1985 Sc
08/04/1985 Sa


as relates to the above data - june profection has virgo rising - emphasizing the 7th house and the natal planet virgo in komillas chart which rules the 4th and 7th...

my software is unable to generate monthly profections.. however, i am sharing the data for june 4th 1985 which coincides with the time of the solar return monthly chart for when this would be in effect for...

in looking at this chart, try to imagine virgo rising in this chart below, which is what the monthly profection chart would emphasize.. until solar fire develops a newer version on profection charts for months - this is as best it can be seen...

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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
Therese, the problem with the older solar fire version you are using is although it puts the birth chart in the inner wheel with solar return on the outer wheel, it puts all of the planets in the solar return houses, not the birth chart houses.

This is correct, and the way western sidereal astrologers of the Fagan school have decided is the valid way to read solar return charts. The chart style I use was designed by sidereal astrologer Matthew Quellas (now deceased). Sidereal astrologers of the Fagan school believe that the solar return to natal chart has to be viewed this way. There are books devoted to reading return charts using this method, both solar and lunar returns. I believe this was an innovation of the Fagan school. At any rate it can be tested. The most popular book using this system is James Eshelman's Interpreting Solar Returns (Astro Analytics Publications, 1979).

I will have to find time to spend with Ben Dykes' book [Persian Nativities IV: Abu Ma'shar On the Revolutions of the Year, Cazimi Press 2019] before any further discussion on points you have mentioned. But also I've been considering leaving Skyscript for a number of reasons, so may let this book go into the background for awhile.

Abu Ma'shar lived at an interesting time when Persian astrology was transitioning from the sidereal to a fully tropical zodiac. I think I remember Ben Dykes mentioning in his introduction that Abu Ma'shar was experimenting in different ways, and seemed not to be sure about how to use some of his techniques. So, yes, he was an innovator at a time of astrological change among Persian astrologers.

Edit:
I should add that the reason sidereal astrologers draw the chart with the solar return angles is that the four angles of the SR chart are of supreme importance. Whatever natal planets all near the angles or aspect them closely will materialize during the year.

So if quadrant cusps are used in the solar return chart, these will be difficult to see in the natal chart. In general today's sidereal astrologers (of the Fagan school) don't use houses or minimize their importance. They pay attention to planets on the SR angles and (some astrologers) also note planets that make close aspects to the SR angles and very close SR transits to natal planets.
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
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Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
I've been considering leaving Skyscript for a number of reasons,

I am considering leaving also. Partly due to my firewall having incompatibilities with older sites like this one. My last post took 3 tries. But there is also talk by the moderators wishing Deb to shut down the forum and I am also uncomfortable at the recent boldly stated jaded if not a contemptible attitude towards newer members.

In fact, as I think about it this will be my last post.

To wrap up the blind analysis... Komilla was married.
The event happened during the main period of Saturn and in the sub-period of Mercury.
Saturn in the 11th house in its own sign and is also lord of the 12th house. Saturn rules the D9 ascendant.
Mercury is placed in its own sign in the seventh house. Mercury is exactly aspected by Mars from the fourth house and by Ketu from the 11th. Mars rules the 2nd house of family, spouse and is in the 4th house of family.

There are other very interesting features in her chart and life I wanted to present, but thanks to everyone for the discussions.
Adieu and be well.
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