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Solar Returns and Profections
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 7:10 pm    Post subject: Solar Returns and Profections Reply with quote

This topic is carried over from the the Indian forum where a discussion was started on profections in relation to Abu Ma'shar's Revolutions (solar returns) and India's Varshaphal chart. This topic is open for posts.
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AJ



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Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Solar Returns and Profections Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
This topic is carried over from the the Indian forum where a discussion was started on profections in relation to Abu Ma'shar's Revolutions (solar returns) and India's Varshaphal chart. This topic is open for posts.

how would you like to proceed? A sample chart? to begin with. Please choose a AA rated chart to have a concrete reference during the discussion.
edit: BT needs to be accurate to 3 tob6 minutes in consideration of sub-lords.
Be well and blessings.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ, I was thinking you or James might like to start this topic as kind of a continuation of your conversation from your last topic. James always has charts he likes to talk about. But I agree: only AA rated data! And of course, anyone else can join in. Stefan?
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks therese,

when i get the specific birth data from the hospital where hamish was born, i will move forward with your idea here... cheers james
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the meantime waiting on Hamish's verified birth time I thought this would be an interesting chart to study.
This is the chart of "Alex," similar to Hamish they had a profound experience as a child that cast their life down paths not experienced by most of us. I say "most" but not entirely uncommon. The gender, for now, is hidden.
Alex was born on 23 September 1942 at 21:30
Place: Lima, Ohio, 40n45, 84w06
Timezone: EWT h4w (wartime)
This is verified by birth certificate.

The event happened in February of 1954, the profection should show as the 12th house, or western style Pisces.

I leave it up to those interested to calculate their own solar return chart as some leeway in techniques and ayanamsa used is assumed. If you need the solar return calculated and posted let me know and I will do that.

Does the solar return show the event? and of course explain your astrological conclusions. Please note the natal configurations that encourage the realization in the solar return. If its not promised in the natal it wont happen in the solar.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ, I think it's important to know the gender of a person, as planets manifest differently in male and female charts. Any professional test of astrology starts with the gender of the person the chart belongs to. This has had a lot of discussion in past tests of astrology in the west.

A question for AJ and Stefan:
From your training and experience, do you count the trine from Jupiter to the Moon as the Moon is only half a degree into Pisces, so just missing a Jupiter trine to Aquarius? This is a question that is often discussed in western astrology.
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AJ



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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
AJ, I think it's important to know the gender of a person, as planets manifest differently in male and female charts. Any professional test of astrology starts with the gender of the person the chart belongs to. This has had a lot of discussion in past tests of astrology in the west.

I generally agree but for the sake of this exercise as it is limited to the event I don't think it matters, but no harm I guess, it is a male.

I'm not really looking at this as a test for astrology per se other than refining the technique of profections in concert with solar returns, but everyone will have different objectives they want to get from the topic.

For myself, Muntha (profections), or the progressed ascendant as a primary technique of Varshphal is valid, but there are points about delineation with them that can be clarified/illuminated through a group easier I think than alone. Everyone that participates will have differing insights that could bring some real light on the issue. I am primarily interested in experientially what is working and what doesn't for everyone using the technique and some other questions.

We could treat this one as a complete post mortem using hindsight. It doesn't need to be a blind chart exercise. It's really up to our small group here. What would you prefer?

Quote:
A question for AJ and Stefan:
From your training and experience, do you count the trine from Jupiter to the Moon as the Moon is only half a degree into Pisces, so just missing a Jupiter trine to Aquarius? This is a question that is often discussed in western astrology.

I for one consider out of sign aspects though of course, not all practitioners do.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to have us try to guess first before knowing what the event was. Since Alex's ascendant is 26 degrees, this is going to change the planets in houses depending on whether whole sign houses or another system is used.

For example in the profected chart (which is house based) I have natal Mercury in Libra in the 7th as it's close to late Virgo on the cusp, but whole sign houses would place Mercury in the profected 8th. Likewise I have natal Moon in the 11th (profected 12th) but it would be in whole sign profected 1st.

I'm looking forward to reading a Varshaphal analysis, because I more or less let the Varshaphal go in favor of western natal/return bi-wheels.

For whatever reason, I was seeing this chart as belonging to a male. But also from what I'm getting out of the returns so far (solar, ennead, decan) the gender doesn't matter as AJ said. I see this as a test for various astrological techniques rather than a test for any particular astrologer's skills.
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Stefan



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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,

Therese,
I use out-of-sign aspects as well, I am convinced that they are valid.
But sometimes I forget to apply them when i am in excusive Jyotish practice..but not when looking more in the western wheel displays.

AJ, thanks for example.

I don't use Varshaphal much like Therese doesn't. I think the sidereal solar returns whith angularity is more telling, even though I tend to favour chart based overlayed techniques like dashas, progressions, transits, eclipses.

In the example chart I am as I think most people here struck by the weak moon in 12th house at 0' degrees, ruler of 4th house, aspected by whole sign aspect by mars from 6th house. This give a "Balarishta" chart, which generally is challenging in childhood, in terms of illness or family problems et.c.

By western technique moon is "135" aspect to Pluto in 4th house (home, family). That enhance the sense of intense cataclysmic energies coupled to home and roots, so changes occuring in childhood in some way disturbing the normal functioning of nourishment and safety.

Dasha in feb 1954 is saturn in 2nd house (family challenges).
Saturn is placed in nakshatra ruled by Moon, setting off the problematic moon in saturn period.
Bhukti is venus ruler of 2nd ( family again).

Transit of saturn (important as dasha planet) is squaring pluto in 4th.
Transit saturn is also '135' to natal Moon in 12th.
Fullmoon eclipse in jan -54 is smack on IC (parents, home).
Transit Pluto '150' to natal Moon in 12th (natal 135 aspect) so this is important as natal aspect repeated in transits.
Intensity, loss et.c.

Secondary progressed MC is *45' semisquare Moon as well.

Everything is pointing to some loss in the family, or some event that is troublesome emotionally.....death of parent...or change..divorce ?
The amount of techniques that set of the Moon is very strong.


Varshaphala
yearlord in 9th with 8th lord, something with father ? death ?

Solar return (using krishnamurti) ascendant opposite Pluto closely...again pointing to change and intensity.

Tertiary progressed Mars is involved on both asc and MC in this month giving a sense of acuteness to the picture. Violence ?

Returning again to transits...
Transit Uranus and ketu conjunct in 3rd house over natal Jupiter in 3rd house.
Jupiter is ruling 9th (father), and 12th (loss)...

I can't pinpoint the event, but there are sure signs that there is important happenings going on for "Alex" at this point alignging with the energies I described here ? Some deeply emotional and intense events that give a sense of loss and insecurity, involving perhaps home and family.

(Not using Muntha here, but noticing of course that Muntha also is in Moon sign and 12th house, which is fascinating.)

( Alex ascendant ruler Mars is in 6th house combust, which can generally incline him to have some health issues or conflicts with others in his life This mars is very much activated in february by tertiary progressed asc and MC so is there some physical damage as well ?)

Sorry for the unstructered post here...
Just some astro brainstorming randomly.. Very Happy
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AJ



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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Therese Hamilton wrote:
Since Alex's ascendant is 26 degrees, this is going to change the planets in houses depending on whether whole sign houses or another system is used.

Yes, this is a great question, using profections, are whole signs or equal house better able to explain the event?
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm ready to post my analysis, just have to find computer time later today. If there are no other messages, I'll try to edit this message to post the solar return. With so many techniques at our disposal, I'm coming up with a picture rather different from Stefan's.

For clarity if others are reading this, the Varshaphal "Muntha" is the same as the western profected ascendant. Thus the Muntha is most probably from Abu Ma'shar originally, but goes back even earlier than the Hellenistic era. In the modern west the technique of profectons has mostly disappeared except in the classical revival, whereas India follows Abu Ma'shar in using the Muntha as part of the solar return itself.
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex’s natal chart is basically a good chart if cusp-at-the-center of houses is used. It’s a full Moon chart with the Moon in the 11th. Though this Moon is weak by degree and has no planets on either side unless Ketu is counted. We do have the trine of Jupiter to the Moon (out of sign).

Jupiter is especially important in the chart as it’s near the cusp of 3rd, and conjoined by Jupiter (vargottama), Saturn and Rahu from the navamsa. Although in the 6th sign, by equal house with the cusp at the center, Neptune and the Sun are in the 5th house rather than the 6th. Mars is quite weak by house as it's on the sandhi point between the 5th and 6th houses. I'm not sure what this means as Mars is the lord of the ascendant, the person himself.

If whole sign houses are used for this chart, this Mars would be a problem Mars in the 6th house aspecting a weak Moon just barely into Pisces in the 12th. Also Neptune and the Sun would be in the 6th house. So it will be interesting to know some of Alex's life history.

Jupiter is in its own star in Venus sub, Venus on the 5th cusp. This connects the 3rd and 5th house, and should indicate a specific skill developed throughout life which uses the hands/arms (3rd house). This Jupiter also clearly relates to travel: in its own star, Jupiter being lord of the 9th and 12th houses.

Here is Alex's solar return chart, natal chart on the inner wheel and solar asccendant and planets on the outer wheel:



For the solar return, I’ll only discuss some of the key positions to keep this as short as possible. The emphasis in the solar return chart is clearly on the 9th house, linked to the Moon in 3rd by opposition. Natal Sun is in 9th along with transiting Sun and Mercury plus natal Neptune and Mars. The 9th house is traditionally related to foreign travel while one meaning of the 3rd is change in residence. (Ancient western texts also link the 3rd to foreign travel.) Combining these positions with natal and transiting Moon in the 3rd suggests to me a far away from home family move and change of residence.

This is supported by transiting Rahu conjunct natal MC in the SR ascendant sign. One common association of Rahu is anything foreign. Rahu is in the Sun’s star which takes us back to the SR 9th house.

The 3rd is emphasized as transiting Moon is near the cusp in Mercury's star pointing to transiting Mercury in the SR 9th. Moon traditionally ruled travel, change and movement in the old texts, and Pisces itself can relate to adventure and far flung places (Lords Jupiter and Neptune).

Transiting Saturn at the top of the SR conjoining natal Mercury are both in the star of Mars...another pointer to natal Mars near the SR 9th cusp.

Profections
As for profections, advancing the ascendant one sign (or house) for each year of life, I don’t have much experience with this technique. But 12th house Pisces (foreign countries) is the profected ascendant, and this ascendant conjoins transiting Moon in the 3rd SR house, thus placing important emphasis on that lunar position.

The profected ascendant places natal Jupiter in the profected 4th house of home and profected Mercury in the 7th house (advancing by houses rather than signs). These positions verify the importance of Mercury: travel. (SR Saturn conjunct natal Mercury in the 10th, star of Mars in the 9th.)

An important transit in the SR is Uranus on natal Jupiter in its own star. This is in the SR 6th house, but profected 4th house of the home. (This Jupiter becomes much more important by angularity in the ennead and decan charts.) This Uranus on natal Jupiter is on the natal 3rd house cusp, another 3rd house emphasis.

Transiting Jupiter gives its full aspect in the SR chart to transiting Saturn conjunct natal Mercury in the 10th. This is the chart of an 11 year old, so that might simply represent a child’s view of a change in status due to a new home location.

For travel and change we have the 9th to 3rd opposition of transiting Mercury and transiting Moon, emphasizing the profected ascendant in Pisces on the Moon.

Taking this all together suggests a major family move to another country. (Remembering that the profected ascendant is in natal 12th which can mean a major displacement or transfer, along with natal Mercury in the 7th profected house.) (The 7th was also linked to foreign travel in old texts.) Whether or not this is the important event in Alex's live, there are certainly a number of astrological pointers in the SR to an event of this type.
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

just going on the concept of using solar returns with profections, here is what i have...

the 12th house emphasis for 1953 starting sept 23rd and covering the events for feb 54 has jupiter as ruler of the pisces ascendant..of course jupiter also rules alex's 9th house too.. in the natal chart it is in the 3rd house/sign and the planet that is the highest latitude - following thru on what we had been talking about in another thread! and jupiter rules the moon in pisces.. the moon is a singleton planet, the only one above the horizon and in the opposition to the neptune-sun-mars conjunction.. it is a nighttime chart, so further emphasis on the subjective nature of the moon which is also emphasized with most of the planets below the horizon line as well...

i like to look at the solar return chart as the outer wheel with the natal chart on the inside.. therese's chart doesn't really do this because the sr ascendant is used as the root for both... here is how i like to look at it..


one notes the moon and jupiter in the sr chart is in the same sign as the natal chart.. i am intrigued by the conjunction of uranus from the sr chart to jupiter in the natal chart.. so is it possible for a 12 or 13 year old boy to have some type of religious experience, or is it more like what therese or stefan are saying - a move to a foreign land, or an outstanding issue involving the father? what about some surprising revelation on a mental level?

i am also intrigued by the close conjunction of neptune-sun and mars... i associate all this with a weak father figure.. i have often wondered how an astrologer connects the virgo sun with rulership over it's own 12th solar house... i have a close virgo sun friend with virgo rising - great musician - but very low key and always wanting to stay far away from the limelight... something about the virgo sun ruling leo is odd...

as therese pointed out - this is a full moon chart too.. it is also a full moon in the solar return chart with moon applying to mercury in virgo.. the nodal axis in the solar return chart is on the midheaven axis in the natal chart.. the moon rules the 4th house which is the end where ketu is in the sr chart.. perhaps something fateful to do with the family makes the most amount of sense..

i wonder about a possibility of the boy finding out his dad is not his real dad or something like that..(or is it his mom is not his real mom?) i could see either of this with the neptune-sun-mars pattern and with the moon in pisces theme here.. an overly sensitive child comes of age by finding out stories about his father or mother that aren't what he thought they were... this would fit with the profection lord jupiter to an extent.. jupiter rules 3 and 12 houses in the solar return chart..

------ non profection/ solar return related...

the solar arc data has pluto exactly square the ascendant from the 4th house - some type of transformative change again with family or home.. sr moon is exactly opposite natal mars - the ascendant and 8th house lord.. but perhaps the most significant one for me is sr saturn exactly square his natal moon - again some sadness or serious cloud around the home and family, perhaps involving the mom more then the dad..

this feels like trying to shoot fish in a barrel, lol... alex chart implies a very sensitive person with moon in pisces, sun-neptune conjunction and all the planets excludng moon beneath the horizon.. thanks for the challenge aj!
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Therese Hamilton



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Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James, are you looking at this with whole sign houses? It's good that your chart is using the natal houses for a base whereas I'm using the SR houses for a base. It will be interesting to see if one set of houses or the other best reflects this important time in Alex's life. I was wondering if you consider both Moons in the 12th house since the natal Moon is just at the beginning of Pisces?

I always place more emphasis on the lunar mansion of the Moon rather than the sign, but I didn't consider the mansion in this case as I was looking at houses as the key to events.
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Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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james_m



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Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi therese,

i am thinking moon is in the 12th house as it is the same sign as the 12th sign to the aries ascendant.. both moons are 12th house/sign... how about jupiter square mercury, since someone mentioned moon trine jupiter - out of sign stuff... mercury is stationary retro in this chart - kind of like hamishs... jupiter-mercury square is more muddled mind as i see it..

i can use the sr chart as a base too, but then it is on the inside with the natal chart on the outside like this



i suppose it is good to look at them both ways... i prefer an emphasis on how everything is situated in the natal chart... this is hard to see and i have too many planets and symbols on the chart, but as one can see you don't get the impression of a beneath the horizon line emphasis in the above chart.. it is more western hemisphere emphasis - a byproduct of the solar return emphasis over the natal chart emphasis..

i haven't worked with lunar mansions enough to offer a view on that! however as memory serves the natal chart and the solar return chart moon to sun dynamic is considered negative as memory serves from my limited knowledge of moon to sun relationship..this is arabic thinking.. i know indian astro says full moon is very positive.. that is not what some other schools of astro say... i don't have a horse in that race..
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