skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Reading SR/Ennead/Decan Charts
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Sidereal Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1562
Location: California, USA

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reading SR/Ennead/Decan Charts Reply with quote

EDIT: 18 October 2019

Through the years I’ve found the solar return chart and its derivatives the easiest to use for predictions. By derivatives I mean the Ennead chart that divides each solar year into nine 40 day periods, similar to the navamsa division through the zodiac, and the Decan chart which divides each Ennead into four ten day charts or 36 “decans” for each solar return year.

The Ennead was discovered by Donald Bradley, and discussed in James Eshelman’s Interpreting Solar Returns (Astro-Analytics Publications. 1979) I have tried working with the many complexities of the Indian Varshaphal chart, but find the simplicity of the western (Fagan-Bradley) techniques easier to use along with the Khullar/Krishnamurti star (mansion/nakshtara) placement of planets.

I’ve found that the ten day Decan charts produce dramatic pictures of main events within each time period. It may be possible to discover specific days for events by noting transiting planets, but I never had the time to test transits to either the ennead or decan charts. It’s important to mention that all of these charts, the solar reuturn, ennead and decan chart have to be used with the natal chart. So a bi-wheel is the easiest way to see the connections between the charts.
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm


Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:36 pm; edited 8 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1562
Location: California, USA

Posted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
ORIGIN OF THE ENNEAD
Exerpts: Posted on the Solunars Forum, July 10, 2018 by Jim Eshelman

In writing about the Ennead the last few days, it has occurred to me that most students have no information on the statistical basis of its discovery. I didn't reproduce this in Interpreting Solar Returns, in the Ennead chapter, and it doesn't get much attention elsewhere.

Garth Allen introduced the Ennead less than a year before his death, in the September 1973 issue of American Astrology. The salient points are as follows, under the title "Return Theory Updated:"

When the Solar Monthly Return was first introduced (Sun every 30° around the zodiac - same degree, minute, and second as at birth, but of each successive sign, once per month), Bradley investigated its possible merit. He tested it "statistically, using mainly death and accident cases." He found statistically significant results in favor of the SMR [solar monthly return].

However, the results were anomalous. The charts for Sun trine natal Sun (two of the non-SSR SMRs in the course of the year) were "surprisingly" on the plus side, even more than the 'square' returns, called the quartisolars.

(...The key here is that, other than the SSR itself, the SMRs that were most strikingly significant were the two where Sun trined Sun.)

Initially bothered by this, Bradley soon realized "that the originally Egyptian, currently standard Hindu, system of 'novienic' or 'navamsa' divisions of the ecliptic also held true as viable returns." This meant "nine basic 'solar returns' during each year," one for every 40° of Sun's travel.

He went on to show how often the Bible etc. spoke of life circumstances that lasted "40 days" or "40 days and 40 nights" - the average duration of an Ennead being just over 40 1/2 days (ranging from 38.3 to 41.9 days).

"With the exception of the first or conjunction solar return, which applies to the full year ahead in general and the first 40 days after one's birthday in particular, each of the novienic solar returns holds sway over a period averaging just over 40 days and nights."
(...)
Garth Allen wrote:

"I believe it can be stated quite unequivocally, on the basis of extensive statistics, that the novienic solar return is more intense in its impact than even the familiar lunar return. So lucid are its indications, we are tempted to suggest that the recent proliferation of "return" formulas - kinetics, anlunars, and all their cousins - amounts more [to] a scratch [compared to] the novienic return than to practical truth."

What is more, there is evidence that the 40-day period breaks down into four "decanate" sub-intervals of 10 days apiece...

Jim Eshelman
www.jeshelman.com

_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm


Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:33 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3708
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

therese,

thanks for introducing a new concept with charts... what astro software are you generating these charts from? thanks.. it would help if i could do that too, or better yet - understand the concept more thoroughly then i do...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1562
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use an old version of Solar Fire (5.2 very old!!) but the module that places the solar return/ennead/decan ascendant on the outer wheel along with the transiting planets was designed by a sidereal astrologer, now deceased. I don't know if the newer versions of Solar Fire have this option.

Usually with return charts software puts the natal ascendant on the cusp, which doesn't correctly show the solar return angles and houses in bi-wheels. So then you have to place the SR in the center wheel and the natal planets on the outer wheel to get the right relationship between the charts. (James Eshelman probably has the correct module for recent versions Solar Fire.)

The solar return/ennead/decan/lunar return charts can't be correctly read unless they are compared to the natal chart so we can see which natal planets are active for the period. The relationship between natal and return chart is critical. Basically the return charts are simply transits to the natal chart. (But I think the lunar mansions are much better at showing areas of life that are activated which was the great discovery of K.S. Krishnamurti.) so I'm combining western sidereal and contemporary Indian methods in reading return charts.

This type of comparison made easy to see with a bi-wheel has been used by western siderealists since the time of Cyril Fagan. I have to review the literature to see how solar returns were used through the centuries, especially the time period that Abu Ma'shar's book on solar revolutions covers. (Gotta' bring out the storage crates from the basement in my brain!)
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3708
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks therese,

i thought the charts looked life solar fire prog... it looks like this option was removed some time ago.... how did you access it on the menu? i can find a lot of options, but not this option... was it under the harmonics and transform heading??

i have no problem using biwheels, as you have probably seen from some of the charts i have posted... my problem is generating the chart you have generated!

with regard to what ben dykes has articulated in the persian nativities from abu ma'shar, one uses the solar return chart in this regard... they examine the profection lord in the solar return chart and how it fairs to get a better understanding of how the profection lord's rulership over the year will pan out.. this also hinges directly on the quality or state of that same planet in the natal chart...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1562
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deleted
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm


Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:41 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1562
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
I thought the charts looked life solar fire prog... it looks like this option was removed some time ago.... how did you access it on the menu? i can find a lot of options, but not this option... was it under the harmonics and transform heading??

This option was never in Solar Fire. It was programmed by a sidereal astrologer and then inserted in the proper directory. I don't even remember how I added it to the program, it was so long ago. But this option appears in my chart option list in version 5.2 on my ancient XP computer. (5.2 won't run on newer versions of Windows. I wonder if I sent you this module if you could add it to Solar Fire??)

Quote:
I have no problem using biwheels, as you have probably seen from some of the charts i have posted... my problem is generating the chart you have generated!

I think James Eshelman may have a module for this choice, especially made for sidereal astrologers. His forum is Solunars. It might be good to email him and ask about this option that places the return angles on the outer ring of the bi-wheel. I think that Jim has been able to tweak Solar Fire in various ways, and he will be using an updated version of the software.

Quote:
With regard to what ben dykes has articulated in the persian nativities from abu ma'shar, one uses the solar return chart in this regard... they examine the profection lord in the solar return chart and how it fairs to get a better understanding of how the profection lord's rulership over the year will pan out.. this also hinges directly on the quality or state of that same planet in the natal chart...

This is something important to discuss, how Abu Ma'shar combines the profection and solar return...hoping I'll have time later today. (Ben Dykes' book just arrived, but I have to wait until later to review it.)
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3708
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi therese,

if you want to send the module to me, i can get my friend brian to try to set it up for me... presently i am running solar fire latest version 9 something on ubuntu... wine was used to get to this! as i said - i already have biwheels and etc. on this program... tri-wheels and more too!

so, let me understand this concept better... you take the relevant solar return and get a number of charts off it breaking down the time frames of when something ought to manifest off the solar return chart? is that what these ennead / decan charts are? if i do a 36th harmonic off the solar return, will i get this chart you have posted up top?


i will send you a pm with my e mail address.. . thanks! james
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1562
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
So, let me understand this concept better... you take the relevant solar return and get a number of charts off it breaking down the time frames of when something ought to manifest off the solar return chart? is that what these ennead / decan charts are? if i do a 36th harmonic off the solar return, will i get this chart you have posted up top?

James, I emailed you the Solar Fire steps to get the ennead and decan charts, but I'll post them here if other readers have a program that does harmonics of the solar return chart.

Quote:
First I highlight the chart in the list of charts.
Then I click on "return or ingress chart."
I set for "current" and "natal."

Chart to generate: "Advanced and ingress" which brings up "Options."
Click on Options.

Set for "Natal Position" and "harmonic."
Enter either 9 (ennead) or 36 (decan) for the charts.

On the right set for "current, nearest or next."
And how many returns do you want?

I often do a set of charts at once, several decan or ennead charts or even two or three solar returns.
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3708
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

therese,

thanks for sending me the data to try this.. i have replied to you via e mail... for others here - i am unable to generate the decan charts, but i notice if i have the dates - i can generate the same chart as shown below in thereses earlier post... however, i can not get the 11 gemini on the ascendant unless i put the dec 23rd on the inside with hamishs chart on the outside... here is the same data, but with hamishs chart and ascendant on the inside, with dec 23 rd 1999 data on the outside...

therese can you tell me how this dec 23rd date is arriaed at? 36 decans is 10X36 or 360 degrees... why does it choose dec 23rd? nov 3 - to 13th, 13-23, 23-3, 3-13- 13-23 dec.. that kind of thinking? if so, why is this dec 23rd chart of more relevance? thanks..




Therese Hamilton wrote:
Hamish’s Third Marriage
Ten day Decan chart: 23 December 1999, Vancouver, Canada, 4:25:58 PST



By this time Hamish is an old hand at marriage. This chart shows the importance of the location of natal planets in the return chart.

Natal 7th is the Decan ascendant with natal Jupiter close by.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3708
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

okay therese...

i finally figured out how to do this... i can take a solar return chart and divide it up into 9 - 40 degree wedges, or 10 - 36 degree wedges, although it would be helpful to have the software do this in a simpler way... it appears to run it off the degree of the sun... in hamishs chart sun is at 17 libra 58' and 14"... to get the last decan prior to his birthdate on nov 3rd 1969, i would put the sun at 7 libra 58' 14" in the advanced ingress option for 1969..

this chart is almost exactly the same as the one therese has generated in her first post.. however, i can get the biwheel to have the 5 cap ascendant on the outside with hamish natal on the inside wheel.. whatever wheel is on the inside gets the ascendant degree from the inside wheel...



here is the biwheel i can generate.. as therese noted earlier - the nodal axis is right on the ascendant of the last decan before hamishs 16th birthday when he married... good score on that therese!!



Therese Hamilton wrote:

By derivatives I mean the Ennead chart that divides each solar year into nine 40 day periods, similar to the navamsa division through the zodiac, and the Decan chart which divides each Ennead into four ten day charts or 36 “decans” for each solar return year.

The Ennead was discovered by Donald Bradley, and discussed in James Eshelman’s Interpreting Solar Returns (Astro-Analytics Publications. 1979)

I’ve found that the ten day Decan charts produce dramatic pictures of main events within the decan time period. It may be possible to discover specific days for events by noting transiting planets, but I never had the time to test transits to either the ennead or decan charts. It’s important to mention that all of these charts, the solar reuturn, ennead and decan chart have to be used with the natal chart. So a bi-wheel is the easiest way to see the connections between the charts.

-----

Comparing the new solar return chart for Hamish with the final decan chart for 1968, the previous year, it seems obvious that the marriage occurred in the 1968 final decan chart.



Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1562
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
I can not get the 11 gemini on the ascendant unless i put the dec 23rd on the inside with hamishs chart on the outside..

This is what I was asking you about, if the new versions of Solar Fire allows you to place the SR ascendant on the ascendant and still have the SR planets transiting in the outer wheel. This is the bi-wheel module I might be able to send you, but first it's a good idea to ask Jim Eshelman if he has the programming for that option for your version of Solar Fire.

Quote:
therese can you tell me how this dec 23rd date is arriaed at? 36 decans is 10X36 or 360 degrees... why does it choose dec 23rd? nov 3 - to 13th, 13-23, 23-3, 3-13- 13-23 dec.. that kind of thinking? if so, why is this dec 23rd chart of more relevance? thanks..

This is the decan chart Solar Fire gave me. It's significant because it includes the date of Hamish's marriage, 31 December, in the ten day period, counted from 23 December.
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1562
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
Here is the biwheel i can generate.. as therese noted earlier - the nodal axis is right on the ascendant of the last decan before hamishs 16th birthday when he married... good score on that therese!!

Well, it's a good score for the Decan chart technique overlapping the natal chart!

Quote:
I finally figured out how to do this... i can take a solar return chart and divide it up into 9 - 40 degree wedges, or 10 - 36 degree wedges, although it would be helpful to have the software do this in a simpler way... it appears to run it off the degree of the sun... in hamishs chart sun is at 17 libra 58' and 14"... to get the last decan prior to his birthdate on nov 3rd 1969, i would put the sun at 7 libra 58' 14" in the advanced ingress option for 1969..

Yes, all the solar return charts are based on the natal sun's degree. You have it! (So it sounds like your program has an advanced ingress option for a year?) It's really sad that with all the new advanced features, the Solar Fire programmers eliminated the harmonics option for solar returns. I use that option constantly on an old program that won't even run on newer versions of Windows. This Solar Fire version also works flawlessly with AstroDataBank which was sold down the river by Richard Smoot---the greatest research loss astrologers will ever have.
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm


Last edited by Therese Hamilton on Sun Sep 01, 2019 11:26 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1562
Location: California, USA

Posted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just finished a reply to AJ's post today, and now AJ's post has disappeared. I'll wait to see if the message is posted again. Skyscript had been acting up; I've been timed out several times.

EDIT: 2 September 2019
AJ hasn't re-posted his message, but I wanted to draw parallels in comments he made about the Varshaphal chart and Persian astrologer Abu Ma'shar as noted in the new translation by Ben Dykes. (Benjamin N. Dykes, PhD, Persian Nativites IV: Abu Ma’shar On The Revolutions of the Years Of Nativities, Cazimi Press, 2019, p. 696.)

AJ mentioned monthly charts as divisions of the Varshaphal chart. Abu Ma’shar also discusses these monthly charts as divisions of the solar return, which reflects the interchange between India and Persian astrologers. But India has added its own spin by breaking down each monthly period into smaller time periods. (I don't remember the details of these smaller divisions.)

Donald Bradley wrote his astrological articles under the name of "Garth Allen." To elaborate a little on Bradley's research on different cyclic charts based on the solar return, here is what James Eshelman writes about Bradley/Allen’s conclusions:

Quote:
Garth Allen...subjected the SMR (solar monthly return) to length testing...In trying to isolate why some charts scored well and others didn’t, Allen realized that the trine charts–transiting Sun 120 degrees from natal–rated better than any save the regular (conjunction) solar returns. Even the quarti-solars were poor by comparison.

James A. Eshelman, Interpreting Solar Returns, Astro-Analytics Publications, 1979, p. 120.

Also Abu Ma’shar wants us to calculate the various lots (Arabic parts) in solar returns that were used in natal charts. This is probably the basis of Indian “sahams” calculated in the Varshaphal chart, but the concept has been dropped in western astrology where generally only the lot of fortune is computed for solar returns.

It’s possible that this newly translated text of Abu Ma’shar is the actual source text for India’s Varshaphal. There are many passages in Tajik Neelkanthi (traslated by D.P. Saxena, Ranjan Publications, 2007) that can be compared to Abu Ma’shar. I have only looked a little into the Varshaphal chart, and didn't have much luck using it for prediction, no doubt due to inexperience and not having a teacher or guru for the study of this chart.
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3708
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi therese,

i want to thank you for the many posts you have written and shared with us... i know i e mailed you in response to some of the questions you asked me here too... with regard to the latest translation - i don't know how long before i get my copy of that book, but they said it wouldn't be released until after sept 24th... - here is the note - Get it as soon as Sept. 12 - 24 when you choose Standard Shipping at checkout. - when i get it, i will be able to study it! and i will be able to further strengthen what i got from it the first time round.. i know some other ideas are captured in it that i have yet to discuss here.. using primary directions thru the bounds and paying close attention to the bound rulers was yet another aspect to a full interpretation of the profection lord, solar return and etc. etc. - arabic parts and etc... cheers james

additionally - a comment on the book by anthony louis is worth sharing here...

"Anthony Louis

August 24, 2019 -
This book arrived in today's mail, and since then I've had trouble putting it down. I was familiar with Ben Dykes' translation of the Latin version of Abu Ma'Shar's text, which was based on an incomplete translation of the Arabic text into Latin, and was eagerly awaiting this edition, which is thorough and complete. This new translation from the Arabic adds to and clarifies many of the concepts that were left hanging in the older addition. The book runs some 700 pages, so I haven't had time to go through all of it yet, but the sections I've read are informative and enlightening.
There are a couple of things I don't quite understand (yet perhaps). On page 6 in his introductory remarks Dr. Dykes says that Ma'Shar's handling of a criticism about the use of different tables of planetary positions to calculate returns doesn't make sense, yet reading Ma'Shar's words (in this translation) on pages 156-157, it seems to make perfect sense. As I understand it, Ma'Shar is saying that we calculate the radical chart carefully so that we know the exact degree of the natal Ascendant. We then add the length of one tropical year (accoding to Hiparchus) to the birth chart for each year of life to find the moment of each subsequent revolution. We then use the same tables that we used for the birth chart to calculate the ascending degree of the return.
On page 9 of the introductory remarks I found the downward pointing arrow in the diagram about distributions to be a bit confusing. This may be how Ma'Shar conceived of distributions but the fact is that the points between the Asc and the IC rise to the horizon by primary motion as the Earth turns on its axis after birth. The radical Asc doesnot sink down toward the IC after birth.
I was a bit dismayed about Dr. Dyke's comments about the lord of the orb. He says that he has never seen an astrologer use this in practice and he advises students to ignore this techique. As an astrologer who routinely uses the lord of the orb as part of the analysis of solar returns, I have found it to be useful and informative. In many ways the lord of the orb acts with respect to the profected ascendant as the partner does with respect to the distributor. This technique is widely known in the Spanish and Italian literature and has been the topic of presentations at astrology conferences for at least the past 5 or 6 years. I myself gave a presentation about the lord of the orb this year at the 36th Iberian Astrologer Congress in San Sebastian.
This minor nitpicking points aside, I find this to be a valuable and informative book and I look forward to many more hours of careful study and experimentation with its contents. Any astrologer interested in traditional methods should get a copy and read this book. "
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Sidereal Astrology All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated