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Will we be together
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Leoing



Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Posts: 18

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:08 pm    Post subject: Will we be together Reply with quote

Hello Everyone,

About a year and a half ago, I met a girl at university but she had a boyfriend. I would like to stress that nothing underhand went on whilst she was in a relationship but we fell in love and the intensity of our feelings separated each other and she stopped talking to me about six months ago as the situation was becoming more and more inappropriate for us to continue as we were whilst she was in a relationship. I have since found out that her boyfirend was low-key abusive to her. I'm unsure of whether she is still in a relationship or not, as we haven't spoken in a while. The path to love can never be easy, eh?

Anyhow, here is the chart I cast on 13 August '19:

Question: Will we be together

Querent: Mars, Moon, Sun

Quested: Venus

Unwanted third party (According to John Frawley, Saturn unless there is evidence for another significatior) I can't see any evidence to suggest otherwise.

My significators: Mars (my head) Does not receive venus at all - This is true. I have all but given up, and I have more or less resigned to leave it in the past (Mars is also combust, which makes sense). Moon (my heart) receives venus in daytime triplicity, and is ruled by saturn (Her boyfriend having power over me as I am powerless in this situation). Sun (man side) receives itself by sign and hates saturn.

Quested:Here we do not have another co-significator so she is on her own as just venus. Venus at the time the chart was cast was in Cazimi (I'm unsure how this effects the overall chart) Venus receives the sun by rulership and triplicity, mars in face and saturn in detriment.

Saturn is in the radical 2nd, the quested's 8th and is retrograde. receiving mars in exaltation and face and the moon in detriment, venus in daytime triplicity.

Mars, Sun and Venus sit in the radical 9th. At the time of this chart being cast, I have been immersed in philisophical persuits, so this indeed makes sense.

The main significators are in a fixed sign, so things go hardly on - but still go on from what I can see.

There is a conjunction between Sun and Venus, as well as moon going to oppose Venus.

I had this chart looked over by an astrologer, where he dismissed cazimi and revealed that he in fact mixes modern astrology with traditional - which seems to me to be a bit dangerous when delinating a chart!

If anyone could gleam some light on this, I will be most grateful as I'm just starting to get into Horary Astrology, i'm not sure how accurate my analysis is thus far.

Thank you!

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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 870

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
There is a conjunction between Sun and Venus, as well as moon going to oppose Venus.


Hello - the most common mistakes I see in chart interpretations is the incorrect reading of applying and separating aspects. I would look more closely on the orb of Moon and Venus and where Moon is going now. Also, oppositions do not lead to perfection without reception. They represent great conflict and difficulty.

Venus certainly is cazimi. To call her abused is odd. Are you sure you are viewing her relationship objectively? Venus is peregrine though so doesn't seem to even know what she wants. You could say she is heavily controlled by the Sun but the Sun is represented well here and is not malefic, other than Mars being combust. Lilly wrote of this: "The significator of the Querent combust, shows him or her in great fear, and overpowered by some great person". (CA., p.113)

The Moon does not oppose Venus for 21 degrees (not close to an orb) and is what some would call Void of Course because it is not applying to anything in its current sign, but I would follow Lilly and say it is not VOC because it is within orb of an opp to Mercury. Mercury lords communication and also the 8th house here though, so is not a great influence and to me would not represent perfection of the matter that is wanted (that is, being together), but might explain the next influence between you, such as poor communications. Additionally, the Moon is in the sign of its detriment and below the earth and cadent, so a very weak Moon. The Moon is the most important body in horary and in the 3rd in a sign of Saturn (and last aspected Saturn) probably represents communication that has halted or will or that is very difficult.

There is another thread in the forum with a similar chart, where again Mercury lords the 8th and is the next influence:
http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10620

The primary takeaway here to me is prohibition, and even arguably evasion. Venus and Mars are prohibited from aspect due to the Sun prohibiting them but also because Mars evades an aspect with Venus because it changes signs before they aspect in Leo. I actually more commonly see the Sun representing a third party than Saturn. In questions where someone asks if someone is dating someone else, I most commonly see the quesited with the Sun, with it representing a person that they hold in high regard, and typically the outcome is that they are seeing someone. However, as mentioned in another thread, the Sun also is commonly seen in charts that represent endings between people because it represents a cycle that is ending. The chart additionally is close to a full Moon, representing an ending and crisis (the Moon is also at a critical degree) rather than a beginning. I am not seeing positives here but it is possible that this is the state of your relationship currently and far down the road something might change. Obviously there are feelings for both parties due to the planetary nature being shown of Mars and Venus (also Jupiter is close to the 1st and Venus separates from it) but there is not much promise here and it would be difficult for both parties to see clearly the circumstances between them due to the Sun.

There are also many fixed indicators suggesting a lack of change in the current situation.

I hope I am wrong and that you find what you seek with this person. I do think the chart is just showing pain and confusion for you with this person though and your devotion would be better served for someone more deserving of it. Keep us posted.
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Leoing



Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Posts: 18

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for such a brilliant response.

Although the answer is on the negative side, I find it rather important for me to get a true answer out of the chart, rather than one just to appease me.

Thank you!
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Leoing



Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Posts: 18

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

“I actually more commonly see the Sun representing a third party than Saturn. In questions where someone asks if someone is dating someone else, I most commonly see the quesited with the Sun, with it representing a person that they hold in high regard, and typically the outcome is that they are seeing someone”

Is there a source for this? It isn't in John’s book? He says the sun must always be the secondary significator of the man. The sun would also signify the turned 3rd house of communication, if relevant to the question.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 870

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, no source. It is just something I have seen in the past 10 years. Another astrologer brought it to my attention when I was a novice and had a question where the querent wanted to know if a person they were interested in was dating someone, and the quesited was with the Sun, and it was later found out that they were in a relationship and lived with someone. The nature of combustion also implies things unseen by the querent, such as a relationship they are unaware of or that they do not understand the relationship. There are many possible interpretations but this a very common signification, in my experience. In the chart I linked in my response, we also see that her husband is now in a new relationship, which caught her by surprise, so, again that is probably partly the signification of the Sun in her chart too.

It is true that Venus and Sun in romance horaries are descriptive of matters such as who is most ardent. I have an old thread that goes into a lot of detail on this: http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5023
When Sun is strong it shows the male has a strong interest in the female. Here Venus is oriental, so chasing the Sun and this would suggest interest by Venus also. However, since Venus is a primary significator, Sun becomes much more of a focal point than usual.

You are certainly free to disregard Sun as the boyfriend but to assign Saturn doesn't make a ton of sense to me in this chart. It is your chart though and you are the astrologer and know more about the situation than us, so you should be able to make sense of the symbolism better than the rest of us. However, by being combust, that would not likely show much objectivity. Planets are often blinded by the Sun, basically. Obviously Mars being a fire planet and with the Sun also increases passion and makes it even more excessively so. Mars is out of sect in a day chart due to the excessive heat in the day. That is a lot of heat, which in traditional astrology is said to also be destructive to the matter.
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Leoing



Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Posts: 18

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your quick response, Tanit.

I will of course not disregard any of your analysis. I am of course still learning and I welcome this.

With that said, going by john’s method I would suggest There is testimony to suggest Saturn here is the unwanted third party:

Sun, my co-significator receives Saturn in detriment. Revealing my hatred for this individual as he stops me from engaging in ‘man stuff’ with Venus

Moon, my heart, receives Saturn by rulership and term. Certainly suggesting the person in question has power over me, “you’re stopping me from being happy with the one I love”.

Mars, my main significator, also revived Saturn in detriment, again showing hatred and this individual being integral to the question at hand.

Now Venus, my love; receives Saturn in detriment, as well as Saturn sitting in her turned 8th house of pain? Possibly the place one would dwell after a breakup? I’m just speculating here*

Saturn is retrograde also, which could be an issue.

Saturn gives testimony as it receives me, mars in exaltation and face, Venus in triplicity and moon, my heart, my emotions, the way I feel for his girlfriend
(I should have made this clear from the beginning that HE is aware, as the girl in question told him of my feelings for hier and certainly suspected hers) in night time triplicity and detriment - he hates the way I feel about her.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 870

Posted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would go back and read that thread I linked. Deb Houlding (author of this site and authority on horary) said the following:

Quote:
In the traditional use of the technique we consider only how the Sun and Venus are relating to each other. In a question asked by a woman, for example, there is no use of the 7th house ruler applying to Venus to show that the man is interested in the woman; the signification only makes use of the Sun and Venus as they are locked into their own cycle.


You would not associate Sun with Saturn. You would look only at how Venus and Sun relate to one another if you use this method as a secondary thing to look at (it is not an influence that leads to perfection but is used in descriptive ways). In any case, how would you explain Saturn being in a sign received by Mars' exaltation and approaching from this area of the zodiac? It also approaches from Venus' triplicity. Saturn is only lording the 3rd house of communications and it is emphasized in the chart via the Moon which is also applying to Mercury, planet of communications.

Frawley's methods of reception are an area of debate among astrologers. I personally stick with traditional reception rather than Frawley's. I have at least one other thread on this, if you are interested.

It is an interesting chart. I am curious how the combustion plays out so do post an update down the road, and good luck.
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Leoing



Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Posts: 18

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, yes, this chart has seemed to have flummoxed a few traditional astrologers I have given to look the chart over. So far I have had 4 differing analysis’ of the chart.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 870

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I was a novice, I paid for a horary that was read incorrectly by a professional astrologer. They read an aspect as a square rather than a separating sextile and an applying trine (between primary significators and the Moon and the matter). Astrologers definitely make mistakes.

My biggest issue with this chart is the condition of the Moon. Even if I did for some weird reason give the Sun to you as a significator to use for perfection (which is not traditionally based) rather than see it as prohibition between you (and an affliction to Mars), what about the condition of the Moon?

Again, we have practically the same chart in another thread that already has the beginnings of an outcome. She asked if she would get back together with her husband and he moved out and is living with a new girlfriend. The only thing that has changed is gender assignments and cazimi Venus, but even if we did that, as a man and the Sun in Leo in the other chart, why did he leave? With the Sun so strong, one would assume if this was super important this would show more interest by the quesited to stay. Her Moon was also more forceful than yours but the chart still indicated an ending. Time will tell.

A cazimi querent would have been a more positive scenario, but Mars is combust and the Sun is approaching too. It is probably positive for her - she is being held in the heart of the Sun, which might relate to another person. As someone with 5 fire planets myself, I tend to recognize the nature of a lot of fire in a chart, especially fire Mars and Venus (which I have in a conjunction in a day chart). To a modern astrologer, I could see them saying this is "fiesty" and "fun passion," but in reality and in traditional it is also destructive in nature. Even in a night chart this would have been less difficult but both planets are excessive fire and out of sect. It is showing a lot of passion that is not sustainable and is much more likely to be short lived and destructive. If there were more fruitful indicators, such as a water Moon that was applying to something more positive at the very least, I might see more potential. If more short lived passion and pain is what someone would seek, then that might occur but I do believe she is with someone else. I especially think the condition of the Moon suggests a painful relationship for the querent and that does not look like it is changing in the sign change.

Have you looked at your synastry and composite information? I am not asking to post that but that might help you better understand your connection and why it has been difficult to be together. Sometimes we meet people who make a huge impact on us but for whatever reason (often heavy karmic influences) being together is challenged and "star-crossed". Often it is difficult Saturn or nodal influences that make being together a challenge. For example, hard Moon-Saturn show obstacles that get in the way of people (which we see in the horary as the Moon's last aspect and what it carries, and could be relevant in natal connections). Such aspects are difficult without a lot of work and sometimes the difficulty itself is what keeps the relationship connected. Some people can thrive on difficulty while others cannot so it important to look at the natal influences of both parties as well.

Some astrologers give a strong weight to cazimi Venus but if this were a question where Sun was in the ascendant, representing the 1st house or querent in some way, I would understand better to give it to the querent as a significator. Even if Aries was rising and it was trine the 1st house I might understand better because Sun is exaltation lord of Aries. Again, a querent cazimi I could see as a positive, but a combust querent? I am not seeing it. I could be wrong, though and am happy to be if it means you will be with this person and be happy.
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Leoing



Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Posts: 18

Posted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have subsequently found out through a friend that the pair broke up just over a month ago and she is now single and focusing on working for the summer, abroad. Which to some extent may explain her presence in the radical. 9th.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 870

Posted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting development! Please keep us posted.
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Leoing



Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Posts: 18

Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought I should give an update on the situation, for learning purposes.

Contact was initiated by Venus, earlier in the week and we are now moving towards taking things further.

I don’t suppose anyone would like to go over this chart to see these indicators.

Brilliant outcome!
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 870

Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leoing - the only thing I can think of is what Deb says here about some general indicators that can be positive:

Quote:
An application from the Sun or Moon to Venus, if both are well placed and strong in essential dignities, indicates the relationship will develop.


https://www.skyscript.co.uk/relationships.html

Venus is not well placed and is applying to Sun but Sun is dignified and disposits both. Perhaps it is because she translates light of Jupiter from the 1st to Sun too? Also, cazimi is not very common in romance charts and can be positive and might be why your chart is better than a similar chart in another thread that had a much different outcome. When the benefics combine via trine and Jupiter is in the 1st it can help mitigate other difficult influences. Algol is on her ascendant though and the placement of the Moon is not explained well by your outcome (IMO). It is your chart though so it for you to interpret. I do not believe all charts are presented a specific way for everyone to read the same way, they are made by the astrologer to interpret. We can state how we would read it if it were our chart but it is still divination.

Personally, I do not typically see such contradictory information in charts that show an easy outcome, such as Moon in detriment below the earth and applying to oppose the 8th lord without reception. Even if you wanted to ignore Sun between the two, Mars evades the conjunction with Venus and Sun both. The only thing I can really argue towards is the cazimi Venus and Jupiter's influence. I see a general lack of perfection here but maybe I am missing something or the outcome is too early to describe what the Moon means here.

Combustion and cazimi in particular is a controversial topic because it makes some unpredictable results in many types of charts, and not just horary. That is the main reason you had many different interpretations on the same chart.
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Leoing



Joined: 23 Sep 2013
Posts: 18

Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, this chart did seem particularly confusing and difficult to interpret in general. At the moment, im giving it another look to see why it did work, even as you say, given the contradictory evidence.

Which I suppose, makes it the perfect learning chart, as it is now a known outcome.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's just it though - I am not sure it is great learning experience because you can have one cazimi chart that is great and another that is not. There have been loads of threads on cazimi placements in the traditional forums and there isn't a great consensus on it. Many still just see it as very combust. I will say though that in romance charts combustion and Algol are very common because people tend to lose their head in romance. Also, I don't think horary charts are meant to confuse us so the opposition in particular may be something that makes more sense with a more concrete outcome, which may come with more time. Who knows?
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