skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Can assassinations be prevented? by Elsbeth Ebertin
translated by Jenn Zahrt PhD
A Guide to Interpreting The Great American Eclipse
by Wade Caves
The Astrology of Depression
by Judith Hill
Understanding the mean conjunctions of the Jupiter-Saturn cycle
by Benjamin Dykes
Understanding the zodiac: and why there really ARE 12 signs of the zodiac, not 13
by Deborah Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

Sidereal vs Tropical
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Katy Strong



Joined: 03 Apr 2019
Posts: 14

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:41 pm    Post subject: Sidereal vs Tropical Reply with quote

The Babylonians were referring to the constellations sidereally for roughly 1500 years before the tropical zodiac was conceived. This means they were making observations of the sky that were up to 20* different from the eventual tropical zodiac. So... were their observations, the foundations for astrology as we know it, wrong all along?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3532
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

katy - welcome to skyscript!

that sounds like a pretty simplistic red herring to me!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
petosiris



Joined: 08 Oct 2017
Posts: 141

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever astrology or astrologer you pick, it will 99% or 90% contradict something that another astrology/er posits.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Katy Strong



Joined: 03 Apr 2019
Posts: 14

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
katy - welcome to skyscript!

that sounds like a pretty simplistic red herring to me!


Please explain further. It’s a genuine question...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Katy Strong



Joined: 03 Apr 2019
Posts: 14

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

petosiris wrote:
Whatever astrology or astrologer you pick, it will 99% or 90% contradict something that another astrology/er posits.


Well, that’s pretty demoralising...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Katy Strong



Joined: 03 Apr 2019
Posts: 14

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

petosiris wrote:
Whatever astrology or astrologer you pick, it will 99% or 90% contradict something that another astrology/er posits.


Well, that’s pretty demoralising...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3532
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi katy,

i feel it is a genuine question from you.. however i think if you keep an open mind on this, you will acknowledge that there are different ways to describe place and observations out of it... the 2 systems - sidereal and tropical are both valid for different reasons... i realize this makes understanding more complicated, but i do feel a person needs to understand and appreciate the different context and place that is being described in each - the sidereal system - based on our sun within the greater context of the constellations as backdrop and our sun as centre of this particular solar system and how we see it from earth inside this solar system, without reference to the constellations..

i suppose i am trying to suggest that both systems are valid, but they are referencing our observation from a different vantage point..

i like to make the analogy of going to a place far away from where i live... lets say i go to india.. if someone asked me where i live, i wouldn't tell them the small town in b.c. canada i am from.. i would tell them canada.. if they knew canada really well, i would tell them the province and then the town i live in.. does my first (canada) or last response (b.c. small town) - imply i am lying in either answer? no.. i see these differences of relationship between our sun as a star with constellations as backdrop, or our sun as centre of this particular solar system as viewed from earth - both valid...

i hope this was of help to you...

on a completely unrelated and personal note, i get disappointed when i offer feedback, as i have on sksycript and there is no acknowledgement of my time and energy and kindness in doing this.. this is my own angst that i experienced recently on a thread here at skyscript.. as a consequence i will not respond to any thread where this person asks a question again.. i am getting this rant off my chest, but it has nothing to do with you. cheers james

Katy Strong wrote:
james_m wrote:
katy - welcome to skyscript!

that sounds like a pretty simplistic red herring to me!


Please explain further. It’s a genuine question...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
Posts: 235

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:57 am    Post subject: Re: Sidereal vs Tropical Reply with quote

Katy Strong wrote:
The Babylonians were referring to the constellations sidereally for roughly 1500 years before the tropical zodiac was conceived. This means they were making observations of the sky that were up to 20* different from the eventual tropical zodiac. So... were their observations, the foundations for astrology as we know it, wrong all along?


There have been lahks (100,000) upon lahks of for and against which zodiac is correct just on this forum alone. Do a search and see.

It is really up to each astrologer to assess this "right or wrong" for themselves. Historical arguments, in the end, lead only to anachronisms that have already been argued to death. I don't think the ancients were as troubled by the differences as we are today. In part due to the relative concurrence of the two zodiacs in antiquity and the limits of their computational accuracy, both zodiacs delivered about the same results. Yet there is a strong modern fundamentalist element in both camps of which is the "true" one as precession has drifted them apart. This is a modern problem projected onto what little we can glean from ancient writings.

I started out in tropical and ended up preferring sidereal Hindu astrology, but yet I will use tropical from time to time. I do not mix the systems. IMO both zodiacs work I just personally find the sidereal produces better results for me. Both are symbological systems used for non-scientific insight.

Pick one and stick to it for a while. Verify it in the crucible of your own experience. As James pointed out it can be a real distraction to the learner and I think I have pretty much just reiterated what he said since I just saw his post beat mine.

Thanks, James, you really make this forum a pleasure.

Cheers.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Katy Strong



Joined: 03 Apr 2019
Posts: 14

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi AJ and James,

Thank you both for your considered responses. I will search through the forum for more discussion regarding the matter. Just to clarify, for me, it’s western sidereal that I’m concerned with, not Indian sidereal.

I understand what you mean about modern fundamentalism, I see it in many areas of life. Now more than ever - intense polarisation. It’s not pretty...

My background is 10yrs enrolled study in tropical, and then a 7-yr break from active study during child rearing. I was always aware of the sidereal zodiac, and familiar with the ‘both are relevant’ stance which I was sort-of ok with at the time, but couldn’t/wouldn’t identify with the adjusted sidereal signs, perhaps because I was neck-deep in a tropical paradigm. About a year ago I stumbled across something online which made me think to have a look at my own chart again through the (western) sidereal lens. Quite frankly, I was bowled over by it. And when I looked at the many charts of people close to me, for the first time using the sidereal zodiac, it also made a lot of sense, stunningly so. I wondered if my having a break from active astrology practice for a number of years allowed me the opportunity to have a fresh perspective...

I always remember Robert Hand’s statement that to truly see astrology come alive, examine the transits. Which I wholeheartedly agree with, and obviously the timing is identical for both tropical and sidereal. House emphasis is the same etc etc. Which for me, could be an explanation for why people just stick with what they’ve been taught/started out with, because a huge chunk of it does indeed resonate.

I’m at a point in my life where I’m considering developing a small business related to astrology but I have been having a rather annoying crisis of belief. I find it difficult to see myself through tropical anymore. And so I ponder how I was able to do so for so many years and am hit over the head with my own confirmation bias. And if that is the case, could it not also being happening again, but this time with sidereal?

If I do go ahead and then choose to operate via western sidereal, there is the not insignificant issue of it constituting a very tiny portion of practicing astrologers (outside India). And the lay man out there who has always ‘known’ themselves to be an Aries, now being told they are (perhaps also) Pisces...is a rather big hill to climb. I have real problems identifying an individual’s Sun as being two signs simultaneously. It’s very hard to shake... Sick

So, this is where I’m at. Just out of curiosity, do you get many people come through here with similar concerns? I’ve referred to Skyscript.com many times over the years. Fabulous writing and descriptions.

Thanks for listening,
Katy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
Posts: 235

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Katy Strong wrote:

If I do go ahead and then choose to operate via western sidereal, there is the not insignificant issue of it constituting a very tiny portion of practicing astrologers (outside India). And the lay man out there who has always ‘known’ themselves to be an Aries, now being told they are (perhaps also) Pisces...is a rather big hill to climb. I have real problems identifying an individual’s Sun as being two signs simultaneously. It’s very hard to shake... Sick

Hi Katy: Thanks for the additional background on where you are at astrologically.

Client education is the best way to approach this problem. Certainly, you will need some articles and FAQ's on your website and social media addressing this issue. As a siderealist in a tropical world, you will have to accept the fact that you will devote more of your time in readings explaining and educating why your approach is different, especially if they have been to another astrologer.

A colleague of mine goes so far requiring a new client to read and actually sign a rather long statement about the differences in approach before accepting a reading. I don't go as far but do have a long paragraph pointing out a few of the differences between Hindu astrology and western that I introduce a reading with. It's not too often that a client will take up a lot of time or become challenging on a point of difference between the systems. After a little practice, you find it easy to lead them back to the points of the reading.

I don't know if your practice will be the more western character/psych or prediction based but if you have good predictive accuracy, clients don't care if they have tropical Sun in Aries or a sidereal Sun in Pisces.

[For all of his faults, I still hold Cyril Fagan high on my list of astrological heroes.]

Cheers and good luck in your practice.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Katy Strong



Joined: 03 Apr 2019
Posts: 14

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, AJ. I’ve been working my way through Fagan’s articles that I can find online and look forward to Kenneth Bowser’s upcoming book on Fagan’s work. If I go ahead with it, I’ll do whatever people are happy to pay for Lala Happy I envisage a mix of Natal and predictive.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
Posts: 235

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Katy Strong wrote:
Thank you, AJ. I’ve been working my way through Fagan’s articles that I can find online and look forward to Kenneth Bowser’s upcoming book on Fagan’s work. If I go ahead with it, I’ll do whatever people are happy to pay for Lala Happy I envisage a mix of Natal and predictive.

If I were to choose a mentor for western sidereal Kenneth Bowser would be my first choice. I will say that the Fagan-Bradley ayanamsa doesn't work me at least for accurate timing of predictions.
My practice is about 1/3 natal, the other 2/3 predictive (transits, progressions, tithi pravesh and horary (prashna). I lump horary (prasna) into predictive.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Katy Strong



Joined: 03 Apr 2019
Posts: 14

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well that’s good to know. That’s the track I was planning to explore (with Kenneth Bowser).

That is interesting about the Fagan-Bradley Ayanamsa... do you use Lahiri? Aren’t they approximately one degree out from one another?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Therese Hamilton



Joined: 22 Feb 2011
Posts: 1483
Location: California, USA

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Katy,

I'm dropping in late to the conversation and have only a few minutes this morning, but related to the meaning of sidereal signs, it's worth reading what one of the early siderealists wrote about signs:

Quote:
Rupert Gleadow (1968, p. 30) Gleadow wrote in Your Character in the Zodiac:

People fail to realize that sidereal Cancer cannot possibly have the same character as the old tropical Cancer. For a person’s character is not going to change just because he is classified under a different sign. And the fact is that tropical Leo and sidereal Cancer are two different ways of referring to the same part of the sky, so obviously the character of the people born under that piece of sky must be the same, whether we label them Leo or Cancer.

My website (noted below) is built around this concept. As for ayanamsas, I experimented with them for many years. Both the Fagan-Bradley ayanamsa and Krishnamurti work well for solar ingress charts (the entrance of the Sun into zodiac signs), but Fagan completely fails for India's varga (divisional charts such as the navamsa). Lahiri works well for India's divisional charts, but gives poor results for ingress charts. Krishnamurti works well for both ingress charts and divisional charts.

The reason Krishnamurti works for ingress charts (the best "selling point" for the Fagan ayanamsa) is because that ayanamsa is 59 minutes different from Fagan (just about one degree), so the ascendants of the two ingress charts (one day apart) will be very close. Only the Moon significantly changes. (I like to think that the S.V.P. Fagan ayansmsa accidentally discovered Krishnamuti, but one degree off.)

Kenneth Bowser has a highly technical approach to astrology. Also highly personal in his approach. Although I use the Fagan style solar return charts, my feeling about the western sidereal school in general is that much of the "romance" of astrology is lost that attracts students in the first place. Modern western sidereal astrology is all about the math. I'll try to add comments a little later when I have more time.
_________________
http://www.snowcrest.net/sunrise/LostZodiac.htm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Katy Strong



Joined: 03 Apr 2019
Posts: 14

Posted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Therese,

Thanks for thanks or dropping in to the conversation. I have read Gleadow’s quote you posted several times now but am still feeling somewhat confused by it! But thank you for the link to your website, I shall spend some time exploring/reading and maybe the light will switch on 🤞🏼💡

And thank you for sharing your experience in preferred Ayanamsas. I’ll have to tinker with that, too, and appreciate your insights. I’d be interested in hearing any further thoughts you might like to share.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated