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Horary versus Electional : Which one is the strongest?
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Miss Watson



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 101

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:17 pm    Post subject: Horary versus Electional : Which one is the strongest? Reply with quote

Let's suppose that I erected a chart asking if I would be successful in something such as getting a new job, or especially launching a new business. But the answer is clear. A couple of obstacles ahead and a malefic planet rising (eg. Neptune).
But... I really wanna go ahead with such business or I cannot miss this job interview anyway.
So I hire the best astrologer and pick up a day. Everything promises to be good.

Will the Horary Astrology prevail over the Electional?
I wonder if the Horary Astrology, being a divinatory science, had already pointed out at the moment of the querent's question, that even with the Election, the things wouldn't happen.

And has anyone had this experience? If so, share with us the outcome, please.
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 206

Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Watson my post wont be of much help to you. But logically speaking since horary is divination i also feel that it must be giving the overall answer with or without electional astrology. But i have no experience in this matter whatsoever.hope someone with some personal experience chimes in. Also i think its good to remember that sometimes horary charts are read wrong so one should not stop putting efforts whatever they might be including choosing a good time through election.
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Miss Watson



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 101

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Serene!

My opinion is that, as you said, the chart is capable of pointing a conclusion with or without electional astrology.
It's possible that someone would read wrongly, but in this case there would be other possibilities, so my question is based on what would be, in a hypothetical situation, an answer in which there would be no doubt as to interpretation, and, regardless of the effort the person invests, would his/her wish be fulfilled?

I intend to make a test so that I figure this out. But I'll take some time to get an answer. Confused
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Paul
Administrator


Joined: 23 Nov 2009
Posts: 1522

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think it's a competition between either one. Both are different approaches to different astrological enquiries.

An election is an attempt to discover the most ideal time to begin or undertake a given venture - the most ideal time that bring the potential that exists to fruition or to avoid stress or difficulty. It is not a magical ritual, in my opinion, to ensure success. You can have the the very greatest of elections and still fail miserably because all you're doing is trying to find the most ideal time to undertake a given venture - but if that venture is not practically supported or otherwise cannot be brought to fruition, then you're just choosing the best time you can, but the venture will ultimately not succeed.

In reality and in practice what typically happens is that you, the astrologer, actually cannot find a reasonable time that would tick all the boxes you'd prefer to undertake the venture. For example it occurs in the middle of the night which isn't ideal or it bring some malefic to an angle even whilst it supports something else in the nativity etc.

There are no perfect times.

A horary on the other hand is a divinatory enquiry which typically, provided the intent is legitimate and the issue weighs heavily on the mind, provides an answer or helps describe the context of the situation so as to better allow for a clearer decision making process.

It is not, therefore, a competition, it is not that they're both describing the same thing, they each have a different focus.
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Miss Watson



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 101

Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul, your response was quite enlightening to me!

It happened that I put a lot of effort into something because I have no choice at the moment, but the Horary pointed me out obstacles in that.
I still decided to insist on it. Of course, I'll accept things as they will be, because I have at least tried.

I got curious about this question for a reason. I'm learning the tarot.
As a beginner, what I read, in summary, was that if I have a hard road ahead of me on a specific issue, I cannot change the highway, but I can choose the way I'll make the journey (based on my behavior, experience, etc.). But if I know in advance some of the obstacles I may have, could I avoid them by strengthening those aspects in an Electional?
It's not what I think.

Quote:
A horary on the other hand is a divinatory enquiry which typically, provided the intent is legitimate and the issue weighs heavily on the mind, provides an answer or helps describe the context of the situation so as to better allow for a clearer decision making process.


I believe that in this case, even though the Horary is helping to describe the context, I am a bit reluctant in accepting it (it's not a 'fate', but it says much more about myself, my mental state).
Thanks for answering me!
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 870

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I originally had a post that was not well thought out and deleted it. I should be more to the point. Yes, I have had experiences where either the horary or the election did not align with one another.

I recently had an exam I was agonizing over (it is a course where the class average is historically 45% out of 100% -the most difficult in the grad program) and I had no choice on what day the exam would be. I was stressed to the point of illness and weight loss. Mercury was in detriment that day and I was very worried I would do poorly because of this. Mercury is the primary planet I look to for exam charts. The chart for the time of my exam even had Mercury ruling the chart in detriment on an angle. Mon dieu! Mars was also in the 9th (and Neptune was angular). After the exam was over, I asked a horary about the scores, as I was getting tired of the stress and anxiety it was causing me waiting for the results, and my significator was Mars in Aries. It turned out I had the top score in the class and set the curve scale. My grade was much higher than the average and I was basically in the A+ sort of realm, which was very surprising. Does horary always prevail? Doubtful. Horary is not always right, or is subject to user error (as is electional). Whenever someone asks me something about their chart that they are worried about, such as my sister having a very difficult Saturn issue recently, I do trust horary over other charts, but that is my own bias. One of my sisters was worried my other sister would die from an illness and her transits and profections were bad but horary said she would be Ok and she did recover.
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 206

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi all,I was wondering about this particular popular stricture of late ascendant which says that a late degree rising means that the matter asked about has already been solved by the universe and nothing more can be done about it.
So does it not imply that matters asked about in horaries where the ascendant doesn't show up between 27 to 30 degrees can be influenced by the parties involved (through choosing good times by election charts or by will power through hard work and so on ) and the final outcome changed??

This would counter the notion that the answer revealed by the horary chart will prevail despite our attempts at electional astrology. Hope what I intended to ask is clear.
Shocked

Ps I haven't read the other responses till now so I'm sorry if this point has already been.discussed
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
Posts: 221

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Serene wrote:
Hi all,I was wondering about this particular popular stricture of late ascendant which says that a late degree rising means that the matter asked about has already been solved by the universe and nothing more can be done about it.
So does it not imply that matters asked about in horaries where the ascendant doesn't show up between 27 to 30 degrees can be influenced by the parties involved (through choosing good times by election charts or by will power through hard work and so on ) and the final outcome changed??

This would counter the notion that the answer revealed by the horary chart will prevail despite our attempts at electional astrology. Hope what I intended to ask is clear.
Shocked

Ps I haven't read the other responses till now so I'm sorry if this point has already been.discussed

I'm sure you will get many opinions on the topic of late ascending degrees but in my experience, if 27 to 29 degrees are rising in a horary it can indicate that a decision has already been made or the question answered but alone by itself does not prohibit an answer. Likewise with early degrees, 0 to 3 rising, sometimes will indicate the question was asked to early, but again, does not prohibit an answer.

If I understand your question are you asking if there is still free will to change an outcome predicted by divination?
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 870

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding a late ascendant, I agree with what AJ said. It can also mean that the question was already asked by the querent to another astrologer or that the astrologer is repeating a question already answered.
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Miss Watson



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 101

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit, thank you so much for sharing your experience!

I have had several cases in which the answer was conclusive for me and the answer ended up proving to be right.
But I had never done a test.
According to my interpretation, I wouldn't achieve my desire, and yet, although unfortunately I had no way to hire good astrologers, I am sure I chose a strong day to launch my business. Now, I have to wait for the outcome of it.

Serene,
That's an interesting point! (in this my test the asc was at 12°)
I share the same opinion about degrees, especially when it is the same degree as my age. To not to repeat a question, I take care in meditating a lot of what do I need to know exactly for that moment.
Quote:

Yes, I have had experiences where either the horary or the election did not align with one another.

Tanit, could you to tell us the degree of the ascendant of the question you mentioned? (just out of curiosity)

Quote:
If I understand your question are you asking if there is still free will to change an outcome predicted by divination?

Yes, something like that! What if I'd know in advance some of the obstacles I may have, could I avoid them by strengthening those aspects in an Electional?
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 870

Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ascendant for my horary was only 5 degrees but the course has 2 more exams so the early nature could just suggest that my final outcome in the class is still fairly early. The angles were fixed and my sig was at a late degree though. My question was "when will the results post and how was my score?" and the early nature could also show that the tests were not even looked at yet and it took a week to grade (which seemed like an eternity).

The date of my next exam for that class, Mercury is retrograde, in detriment and besieged so that should be interesting for the entire class. It is close to Markab also, so it should be a "fun" exam. I am not too surprised considering how difficult the subject matter is though.
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 206

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 7:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJ

Can you please clarify what you understand and mean by "decision has been already made" I have read this clause for the late degree rising at many places but never quite understood it. Does it mean that the outcome cannot be changed or the possible actions that can be taken by the querent have already been decided and fixed. I suppose it must be the latter?

Yes the crux of the matter is whether or not one has the free will to change the answer pointed out through horary.

Tanit,

In my charts as well I have seen the late degree coming up when the question has already been asked even if it is a similar question asked in a different way.
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Miss Watson



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 101

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, Tanit! The degree of the ascendant for your horary makes sense.

Serene,
According to Sylvia de Long, 27 degrees or more may suggest that the querent, or another person important to the querent has already made the decision.
Everytime I had 27 degrees or more, I had already made a decision.
Personally, I think every chart may be read as long as you had not made the same question twice within a certain period.
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AJ



Joined: 01 Nov 2018
Posts: 221

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Serene wrote:
AJ
Can you please clarify what you understand and mean by "decision has been already made" I have read this clause for the late degree rising at many places but never quite understood it. Does it mean that the outcome cannot be changed or the possible actions that can be taken by the querent have already been decided and fixed. I suppose it must be the latter?

Serene: To piggyback on what Miss Watson has quoted and written:
Quote:
Miss Watson According to Sylvia de Long, 27 degrees or more may suggest that the querent, or another person important to the querent has already made the decision.
Everytime I had 27 degrees or more, I had already made a decision.

The above is "it" in a nutshell.

Late Degrees: The Querent or someone involved the situation or object of the question has already made a decision regarding/affecting its outcome. This can be known or unknown to the Querent at the time of the question. It does not prohibit a judgment but late degrees on the ascendant should give the astrologer pause to carefully look at the configurations affecting the significators. If I see late degrees in a horary I also go back and make sure I understand what the client is truly asking about. Late degrees, 27 to 29 rising can also give the astrologer a way out if an answer isn't available.

I think we have all had occasions when deep down had already made up our minds on some issue but weren't really conscious of it at the time.

changing gears here... The free will versus fate in astrology has tasked many minds greater than mine. Right here on this board even, do a search and it comes up quite often. The arguments on both sides are compelling. Personally, it's not a big issue for me because I have a very Asiatic outlook on such things.

Hope all of this helps and haven't confused or clouded anyone's understanding.

Cheers.
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Miss Watson



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 101

Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
changing gears here... The free will versus fate in astrology has tasked many minds greater than mine. Right here on this board even, do a search and it comes up quite often. The arguments on both sides are compelling. Personally, it's not a big issue for me because I have a very Asiatic outlook on such things.

Hope all of this helps and haven't confused or clouded anyone's understanding.


Hi,
As I mentioned earlier, I had this curiosity because I found myself in a situation with no way out and then, I decided to invest all efforts in the object of my Horary.
I thought interesting the comments and experiences that this topic raised (and it really answered my doubt), but of course, if the moderators consider that this topic may confuse minds and it's not helpful, feel free to delete it!
Warm regards.
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