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Where is that Ptolemy's table?
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
Posts: 264

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:48 pm    Post subject: Where is that Ptolemy's table? Reply with quote

Hello forum,


I was ready to post this chart right after I erected it but I got busy and didn’t get the chance until now so this is what went by:

I haven’t seen my favorite 5 inches x 8 in. printed out Ptolemy’s Essential Dignities/Debilities table for a while. It’s rather inconvenient not to have it in the usual location which is next to our computer. So I asked the heavens.

My Saturn is combusted by the Sun in 12th. I wondered could it be 2nd house matter (missing item) or could it be 4th house matter (misplaced item)? My partner asked me the differences between 2 and 4. I told him that the missing item category sometimes includes theft (I gave him my glare). “Well, you heard of a dog eating an owner’s school homework joke right?” -- I gave another glare to our dog sitting nearby. But I think both guys are 100% innocent and I’m the one to blame; perhaps that is why I’m placed in the 12th house. Cool

Lord 2nd is in 11th house and Lord 4th is at the top of the chart. The Moon is conjunct Spica in 9th house ready to perfect my ascendant. Sounds very positive in my humble opinion; what do you think? Any takes on this? Thanks!


Data: Sun, 30 December 2018 at 8:36 a.m.
San Francisco, CA (US)


[img] http://i63.tinypic.com/iz9a4m.jpg [/img]


[/img]


Last edited by Part of Fortune on Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:26 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 131

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi PoF, interesting question! May be we can also look at Mercury to signify the lost table since Mercury rules astrology, divination and study material. We see Mercury also in the 11th in Sag (like Jupiter) and conjunct your Saturn by antiscion.So you will definitely find it soon. Will come back for more details.
Thanks for sharing your chart
Cool
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 603

Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moon is VOC in the via combusta, asc ruler combust, PoF in sign of infortune, Mars conjunct Scheat in the 2nd house, SN on the ascendant. Spica helps the Moon in the Via combusta but it wouldn't negate all that other stuff. Not very promising for recovery. Is it possible someone threw it out or it was destroyed? The fact that Mercury is in detriment seems like it would be damaged also. It was the last aspect the Moon made and is in the 11th. Could it be in a fire or near heat and damaged? Hard to say what happened but I personally would not give antiscia aspects as strong aspects of perfection, especially between a combust and cadent planet and a detrimented one. The cadent Moon (also decreasing in light) square the ascendant (and nodes) is also not a good testimony for a positive outcome, but maybe something regarding what happened could turn up with difficulty. Mercury is also within orb of a square to Mars. Maybe Mars describes best what happened to the item itself, but I also wonder if the signification of the ascendant ruler could indicate some fault on the querent but maybe you are forgetting? To me, it seems like it was either burnt or destroyed some other way and the chart gives no classical indication of a positive outcome. There is much emphasis on burning or destruction - asc ruler combust, Mercury and 2nd ruler in fire, Mars in the 2nd conjunct a malefic fixed star, Moon in The Burning Way. When my sisters lost their dog, it was due to their own error (forgetfulness of leaving him in the backyard overnight when they knew he was prone towards escaping) and Saturn was in the 12th as ascendant ruler in that chart. In their case, they had loads of guilt too though, and one of them was too ill to look for him. You could have been ill or injured/medicated when this happened too.

I would give a printed table to Mercury, but the 2nd ruler also lords it, so in either case it seems connected to the 2nd house. If it is a printed table, maybe just reprint it though? That seems much easier than analyzing a horary and searching around for it.
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
Posts: 264

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Serene and Tanit,


Thank you very much for the replies. I will post here not a complete outcome but a few results and some incidents which led me to find the missing item:

The item was found at 8:45 a.m., 18 minutes after I erected the chart.

That Sunday morning we three were getting ready to take a walk. While waiting for my partner (and the dog) to get ready, I started to clean up the computer areas. Doing so I found the chart I erected a few days before asking "where is my iPhone? (found it already)” -- and this prompted me to ask the whereabouts of my favorite Ptolemy table which was missing for a while.

Tanit3333 wrote:
If it is a printed table, maybe just reprint it though? That seems much easier than analyzing a horary and searching around for it.


… So I have. Throughout last year, I printed out several duplicate copies and placed them inside of the other astrology books (so I wasn't desperately trying to find this one). However not having this particular copy was rather inconvenient for me because this one had additional handwritten information (antiscion, etc.) on the back. I usually keep it next to the computer. But, now and then, it disappears and later not surprisingly I find it inside of other books Rolling Eyes (it seemed I used it as a bookmark); when that happened, I always returned it to the original location.

So back to that morning.

While waiting for my partner and the dog, my original plan was to erect the chart --> post it at the forum --> and go for a walk. I wasn't planning to analyze the chart but once I glanced at the chart, my curiosity got the better of me and I ended up looking for more clues. In the meantime, the boys went out for a walk without me.

And back to the chart.

I was so sure the item was buried somewhere or inside of a book somewhere (but not quite what I thought). What decided me to concentrate and search one area was a certain location and two objects. I will post the complete outcome later but for now I leave this open for anybody interested in studying further.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 603

Posted: Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PoF - I personally would not call the chart radical then if you found it. Why would so many indicators show lack of recovery with such an easily recovered item? Antiscia is not an aspect of perfection in horary. It can show dealings behind the scenes, but it not a forceful enough aspect for perfection, as has been discussed in here long ago by people who know more about horary than I do. The only thing arguable as perfection would be the Moon to ASC, but the ASC is a point and not a planet and the Moon is VOC (which is also a consideration and arguably something to consider for rootedness of a chart). I am glad you found the table. It is possible to find an object without horary, though. I have had charts of my own that did not align with an outcome and I would not try to study them when they clearly do not match. For example, I asked about an upcoming semester and the chart showed extreme affliction and failure, but I got all As and the classes were not that bad at all. Maybe this chart worked for you, and it is your chart so that is the point, but it would be very odd to have such a strong indication of lack of recovery in most charts.

Is there hour agreement?
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
Posts: 264

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit3333 wrote:
PoF - I personally would not call the chart radical then if you found it. Why would so many indicators show lack of recovery with such an easily recovered item? Antiscia is not an aspect of perfection in horary. It can show dealings behind the scenes, but it not a forceful enough aspect for perfection, as has been discussed in here long ago by people who know more about horary than I do. The only thing arguable as perfection would be the Moon to ASC, but the ASC is a point and not a planet and the Moon is VOC (which is also a consideration and arguably something to consider for rootedness of a chart). I am glad you found the table. It is possible to find an object without horary, though. I have had charts of my own that did not align with an outcome and I would not try to study them when they clearly do not match. For example, I asked about an upcoming semester and the chart showed extreme affliction and failure, but I got all As and the classes were not that bad at all. Maybe this chart worked for you, and it is your chart so that is the point, but it would be very odd to have such a strong indication of lack of recovery in most charts.

Is there hour agreement?


Tanit,

Capricorn ascendant and it is Venus hour. Venus rules earth triplicity by day so the chart is rooted.

Others might have a different reading than you so I will wait longer before I give the detailed outcome.
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
Posts: 131

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi PoF, Tanit

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. In my humble and very amateur opinion i have seen the antiscion work. But i may be wrong snd there might have been other positive testimonies which brought about the perfection . But VOC moon is what im wondering about as this i had not seen earlier and noticed only after reading Tanit's reply.

And isnt the moon separating from the Ascendant? Is it because it is a one degree orb that it is being counted as a testimony for perfection? I also see the PoF perfecting an aspect with Saturn (1st house lord).

ly planet aspecting Saturn is the Sun. How about signifying the lost table by the Sun for it throws light on the horaries and brings out the truth (sun symbolizing the Truth)? Sounds far fetched? Lala Happy

Thanks for posting the outcome PoF, and since you havent yet posted the location i am tempted to make an attempt.

Jupiter and Mercury in Sagittarius may show study place, near or inside books or study material, worship place or wardrobe. Both inside the intercepted 11th house shows article lying between two objects and not very far away and not very easy to find

Venus and PoF angular may show the table where should it or very close by, easily found, where the querent spends a lot of time but hidden in Scorpio and perhaps in dark. 10th house points towards workplace . Both Venus and PoF close to cusp may mean the missing item is behind something, near a boundary or between two items?

Direction may be south

Level mid to upper level from ground like inside a shelf

Mercury separated from the Moon and Neptune so probably table was lost through frequent, everyday use and forgetfulness.

This was the first chart i looked at in this new year. Happy new year to you both and all


Last edited by Serene on Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:30 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 603

Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, if the astrologer found this chart helpful, then that is all that matters. For people studying astrology, looking at charts that break a ton of rules and trying to make sense of it can be frustrating. I would never blame an astrologer for coming to the wrong conclusion given this kind of signification and wouldn't save it for the books.

Serene - yes, the Moon is actually separating from the ASC. My phone text is quite small and I thought it said 28 degrees for the Moon. So, even more so the case of a Moon going to nothing in the chart. If it were in a sign that functions that might be fine. Even benefic fixed stars are not regarded as enough. Even if you used Uranus, that is an opp. Regarding seeing perfection with antiscia aspects, I would be curious to see a chart like that and if there was other testimony to support it. One that is also a VOC Moon in the via combusta would be very unlikely. Any Ptolemic aspect between a detriment planet and a combust one is quite weak, let alone an antiscia aspect. Saturn combust is said to be stripped of its power to do harm, though, in Bonatti's Considerations.

Quote:
The only planet aspecting Saturn is the Sun. How about signifying the lost table by the Sun for it throws light on the horaries and brings out the truth (sun symbolizing the Truth)? Sounds far fetched? Lala Happy


I think in the 12th the truth would be hidden, but I guess you could say hidden matters are revealed.

PoF- I am glad you found the table and it is a good example of how techniques and opinions on charts can differ. Thanks for sharing and maybe some other people might see something we missed.
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit3333 wrote:
I am glad you found the table. It is possible to find an object without horary, though.


I agree. I would eventually find the Ptolemy Table and that was why I didn’t ask horary earlier. It was missing for a while (perhaps a month, two months?) but I wasn’t worried at all because I knew it was in the house somewhere… except, the only concern I had was perhaps it fell into the trash bin by accident.

I think the virtue of asking horary (at least in my case) is to have a chance of finding it quickly rather than leave it to the chances of nature. The very location where I found the table did confirm this because I was quite surprised it was there. Because the sheet was hidden in such a location, it would have taken a long time for me to find it.
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
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Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.

Hi Everybody, I’m sorry for the confusion!


Part of Fortune wrote:

The item was found at 8:45 a.m., 18 minutes after I erected the chart.


The Clarification: The missing Ptolemy Table was found within 18 minutes after I erected the chart. That is on the same day – which was Sunday December 30, 2018. The chart was erected at 8:36 a.m. (I replied as shown above on Tue. January 1, 2019).

The Moon at 25:08 in Libra is approaching to Ascendant at 26:27 a.m. in Capricorn.
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
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Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit, regarding the sun, I was just being experimental and wanting to know what you / others think of it. Thanks for your pov. Actually like you said i also agree that Saturn combustion shows recent illness etc

PoF, thanks for clarifying about the timing.
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
Posts: 264

Posted: Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Serene wrote:
Tanit, regarding the sun, I was just being experimental and wanting to know what you / others think of it. Thanks for your pov. Actually like you said i also agree that Saturn combustion shows recent illness etc

PoF, thanks for clarifying about the timing.



Hi Serene and Tanit,

Regarding illness and Saturn combusted by the Sun: In Mid-December, my lower back got injured. But by the time I asked horary about the missing Ptolemy Table, I was fully recovered. I do not recall any other recent injuries nor sicknesses within the past two months. I said this because during this time frame I noticed that the table was not near the computer where it should be.

I think I was genuinely blinded by the Sun. The missing item where it was found (hidden inside there) was sitting very close by the computer about one yard away (36 inches/.91 meter). All this time, I was looking at it but it didn’t occur to me to search the inside.

I have to run now but I will report the full detail of the outcome when I get settled down.
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
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Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi PoF, thanks for the outcome! I am curious to know the full course of events. Thanks for sharing the chart and giving the feedback.
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Part of Fortune



Joined: 29 May 2017
Posts: 264

Posted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Serene wrote:

Jupiter and Mercury in Sagittarius may show study place, near or inside books or study material, worship place or wardrobe. Both inside the intercepted 11th house shows article lying between two objects and not very far away and not very easy to find

Venus and PoF angular may show the table where should it or very close by, easily found, where the querent spends a lot of time but hidden in Scorpio and perhaps in dark. 10th house points towards workplace . Both Venus and PoF close to cusp may mean the missing item is behind something, near a boundary or between two items?



Serene made a very good reading again. Here are more details:

The reason I was able to find the missing item so soon after erecting the chart was due to the particular construction of our kitchen. It has a different arrangement than the rest of the kitchens in the building. We bought the place from an elderly Russian lady who loved to cook and spend a lot of time in the kitchen. At one point, she decided to enlarge her kitchen space by knocking part of the kitchen wall and combining the storage room (adjacent to the kitchen) into one room. The kitchen became extended and the storage room now has two doors, one to the kitchen and one to the hallway (the original door). In this former storage room she built a desk with a heavy brown granite stone desktop and turned the area into a little computer room.

So this storage area became the room within the room and the Moon in Libra is pointing out that the missing item is in here. Libra also is representing color Black. The Moon has separated from Mercury and here you see on the top of the desk are two Mercury items; the computer (with keyboard) and the printer all in black. PoF is in Scorpio indicating brown color which is the color of our heavy granite stone desktop.

As I said in my earlier post, I was pretty sure the Ptolemy’s Table was either buried under various horary charts or in between some astrological documents or inside of one of the astrology books. However, I had already checked them but without success so was rather puzzled and wondered where else it could be hiding?

The last location I hadn’t yet checked was a small maroon colored file container sitting on the top of the granite desk, next to a grey scanner and it was against the northwest wall. Most of the stuff in that container belongs to my partner – individual file folders, notebooks, writing pads, etc. Among them, there were three address books (they are all Mercury items). One of them is a collection of various internet address books (a very Mercurial item, indeed) which my partner uses frequently. Well, I seldom open it. My 5 x 8 inches Ptolemy’s Table was inside. The color of this address book was exactly the color of Granny Smith apple green and it was very visible from where I usually sit at the computer (as I said, I was blinded by the Sun).

Tanit3333 wrote:
I also wonder if the signification of the ascendant ruler could indicate some fault on the querent but maybe you are forgetting?


Later that morning, I was talking to my partner about how surprised I was to find it in such a location … that’s when it occurred to me that I might have put it there myself and forgotten all about it. It was rather a good idea to keep it in there rather than keep it nearby the computer (very likely I will lose it again soon). So now I’m keeping that Ptolemy’s Table inside the Granny Smith address book.

Again thanks to Serene and Tanit! Very Happy
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Serene



Joined: 24 Jul 2017
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Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello PoF thanks for all the colourful details and the final outcome. This kind of feedback is what every astrology student hopes for.
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