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present situation in the usa
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2883
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:27 pm    Post subject: present situation in the usa Reply with quote

there are more charts for the usa, then an astrologer can shake a stick at! however, i think something fairly significant is coming down the pike and i ponder what it is that connects with any of the charts we have for the usa... clearly - the area of the year 1776 seems significant!

i used to always use the 213 am chart for july 4th 1776... i then discovered a plethora of other chars and gravitated to the potusa chart 30 april 1789...
both have a point at 18/19 aquarius which is opposite the sun eclipse coming up...

it seems to me regardless which chart one uses, pluto is a planet that seems to rule over hidden stuff and the intel agencies too... in the july 4th chart - an opposition between mercury at 24 cancer and pluto at 27 cap is going to be increasingly in focus thanks the nodal axis movement and the eclipse cycles... as it turns out this same chart has moon at 18 aquarius - so essentially the moon ruling over the general public are in a real funk at present and i don't see it letting up any time soon... meanwhile the april 30, 1789 has pluto at 19 quarius - so one can take there pick up what chart is doing what, but pluto seems like an active ingredient as i see it.. i suspect the next few years are going to be a real challenge for the usa going into 2020.. i can't see it any other way here... this is not doom and gloom, but trump seems like he is the guy to walk thru this crazy transition - i am hoping for some sort of transition - as opposed to a complete meltdown!

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WooWoo



Joined: 05 Apr 2013
Posts: 917

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James,

As Trump is the President of the U.S of A.

What is concerning me just now is that r.Mars is closing in on Trumpy's Ascendant, Eclipse Point, and near his n.Mars. And that remains till later in August. Mars SDs right on Trump's nose.

It is an inconjunction and from personal experience Little Old Mars-ie can punch pretty hard.

I think r.Saturn's trine and semi-sextile respectively is reducing much of the problems coming from t.Uranus and t.r.Mars but the nature of the 150°, as Brady says, is to stop the play and move the whole set to another location.

Sort of suggesting Trumpy will be at the will of a superior force for a few weeks ahead.

H


Last edited by WooWoo on Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 396

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aren't most of the charts the same date just with a different time? I think the Sag rising one suits it best. Land of the "free" and all. Not to mention, an event chart that has lead to a country being relatively strong for a few centuries would more likely have a strong ascendant ruler (Jupiter in Cancer, exalted in the 7th). In the Sag chart, the nodal return with the lunar eclipse is occurring in the 8th house and could suggest the recession everyone keeps saying is coming. As far as Trump goes, I think most people are surprised he is still in office and it is just a matter of time - I don't see how he would make it through the next election at the very least. It seems like the US has always gone through significant changes and I don't think Trump is necessarily going to be responsible for whatever the first Pluto return it has experienced signifies, which is in the 2nd in the Sag chart. That would be giving him way more significance than he deserves. It could suggest restraints on necessary resources, such as water, or maybe major natural disasters that we are not prepared to deal with. Pluto often works in ways that lead to destruction of something that is not working and if in the 2nd, it could lead to a financial/resources based overhaul but something major would likely trigger this response, as usually happens with Pluto. Maybe it will force the US to finally face climate change and quit living like there is no tomorrow.

Mercury stationary/retrograde in a mute water sign certainly explains our poor education system, though, but I don't think it rules the chart. In this one, the Moon is besieged and is the luminary of sect (and the only traditional planet above the earth) and I don't think such a chart would lead to a country persisting for long. I feel quite strongly this is not the correct chart to use.
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Arvind



Joined: 07 Nov 2016
Posts: 56

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit3333 wrote:
Aren't most of the charts the same date just with a different time? I think the Sag rising one suits it best. Land of the "free" and all.

I think the last time I counted there are at least 16 different charts in use for the USA. The Gemini ascending is the most commonly used. At least that's the one I see quoted the most. We don't know the time of the Founders signed it off, but two in the morning is probably not realistic.

Michael Wolfstar O'Rielly advocates a Scorpio Rising, 14:21 LMT, which is just about the inverse of the Gemini one, that in the context of time for the Founders to be signing seems more realistic. Assuming this is a nearly correct chart, it could explain why the Gemini rising chart transit and progression timings work as it is a bit over 12 hours off. He presents a persuasive case, http://www.neptunecafe.com/ScorpioRising.html

From a general POV I think the Sc rising has problems too. A Scorpio ascendant would not produce a great and creative nation with so many Nobel Prizes and scientific discoveries, also the USA would be more self destructive than self serving. Especially with Ma, Ve, and Ju in the 8th house.

I don't have the answer... not by any means. Also not trying to add to the confusion, but IMO if you insist on using a July 4th chart the Sagittarius rising (Sibly chart) is the best of any proposed. So, I agree with Tanit.

The final time (17:10) is late in the day when people are hungry and wanting to wrap things up and get "the hell home for dinner."
Cheers.
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SGFoxe



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 258
Location: Chicago, IL

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the Sag rising USA chart features a v/o/c moon in Aquarius ... that's not going to work for a cancer sun to my thinking. Additionally, Obama's ASC at 18AQ03 validated the 18AQ10 USA Moon of the gemini rising chart and Obama's magical political success validated his birth cerificate's time. I've got others -- a favorite of which is the blackout of the eastern seaboard on Spiro Agnew's birthday in 1965. That occurred a matter of 36 hours or so within the exactitude of a secondary progressed eclipse of the gemini rising 'scope for USA. Early gemini works for other metaphysical reasons ... the last 13 Katuns of the 13th Baktun of the Fifth Great Age of the Mayan Calendar 2hich started August 12 3113 BC and ended 21DEC2012 with the solstice. This first of the last 13th (resonates with the colonies) begans 2Jun1776, just as Dolly Madison had presented her finished banner to Congress.

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2883
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rocko woowoo -

i think a focus on trumps chart is an okay way to gather the fate of the nation in some respects... i don't see the data you mention as having much bearing on anything significant though... i think the solar arc direction of ascendant at 8 scorpio 55 is moving towards the square to pluto at 10 leo is going to be more significant in the next year, but not fully on at present.. and i think the transit of saturn towards the venus/saturn conjunction in his chart is going to be much more challenging, but we aren't there yet... true - the mercury/neptune square is being impacted by the t of saturn, but i think it becomes more challenging for him next year, then now.. obviously on an external level it is probably very challenging for him now too, but i think it really heats up sometime in 2019... in looking at his solar return for 2018 - it is okay... the 2019 however has a mars/saturn opposition on the angles, so save the small stuff for next year, lol... the profection this year is leo - sun and i think this is positive as well... 2019 profection is mercury/virgo, so not as favourable as i see it..

tanit

there are many more charts for the usa then just the gemini or sag charts, although these 2 - are perhaps the most popular... i see you like the sag one for the reasons you cite... i would say a planet in an angle and close overrides the ruler of the sign.. so, i am more favourably disposed to the gemini rising for this reason - uranus rising which i think definitely captures the usa spirit and moon in the midheaven in aquarius - friendly and detached energy of the people... well, that is a superficial read anyway! regardless - there are other charts that others consider more relevant and so it really is difficult to convince the astrological community of the veracity or greater significance of one of these charts over the others..

regardless of all that - it is fun to try! for a number of astro reasons, i can see the next 2 years being very challenging for the usa.. if we use the chart with these planets in cancer - one can see the ongoing saturn transit as a clear challenge for the next 2 years or so.. and we can throw in the transit of pluto to a return in the next approx 3 years and how it is placed in the july 4th charts and continue along the same line...

it is really too bad there isn't a chart for the world, as i do think the world is in a real funk at present... i think trump is a good figurehead for where we are too.. he is a combination of a number of traits that capture a lot of what is wrong in the world today, but some of what is right... personally i like his spontaneity and not being on script.. it is very unusual for a politician who are almost always well scripted and guarded in their views.. i wouldn't rule out trump not only lasting his term, but being good for another one - as scary as that is for some of the usa and msm too... we'll see.. anything is possible here, but i do believe the fbi and cia have had an undue role and influence on the state of affairs in the usa at present and it hasn't been a good one either... until these organizations are cleaned up and made to be non partisan - the usa is becoming more like a totalitarian system.. some argue it already is!
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Arvind



Joined: 07 Nov 2016
Posts: 56

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGFoxe wrote:
v/o/c moon in Aquarius ...

We will have to agree to disagree. Wink
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SGFoxe



Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 258
Location: Chicago, IL

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

show me your evidence rather than citing 'authority' ... what kind of intimate cnnection w/history does the sag rising chart bear? My version has Betsy effing Ross waving the flag for gawd's sake and given its progressions which feature a 22 Sag Asc currently and a p-moon in 12th crossing ascendant around august 25th ... which is the trumpian solar return to progressed sun AND the USA lunar return to 18AQ10 ... and trump's been wagging the dog waxing to lunar eclipse
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2883
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

arvind and sgfoxe - i missed your posts as i was typing while you two were posting! thanks for the additional comments... i wouldn't get too wrapped up in any attachment to one or another chart for the usa myself - but have it if you want, lol.. hey - we could even get fancy and revisit the concept of void of course moon! i remember back to when chris brennan went into all the possible variables on that one... as memory serves - moon at 18 aq is still in an aspect with saturn at 14 libra... some would consider that still a valid aspect!!
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 396

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the VOC Moon in the Sag chart, it is within orb of a trine to Venus (and Jupiter) and many traditional sources would accept that aspect because Moon is also within 5 degrees of the next sign. As Bonatti says, a planet within 5 degrees is neither in one sign nor the next, but both.

Even Robert Hand agrees that rectifying charts is not always accurate or a perfect science. It is a guessing game, and if there are 16 charts, we can all agree to disagree.

James -Moon is not VOC in your chart, it is applying to Mars. That is why I said it is besieged (it last aspected Saturn).
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tanit - thanks i saw that after i posted my comment..
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
Posts: 396

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a rational level, how would this time be historically accurate? Congress would likely not have ratified the declaration of independence at this time and sent it to the printers. They would have been asleep. I am not a historian, but would this time make any sense? I can understand using different dates because there are a lot of steps that lead up to the US being formed but this time is just odd. The Sag rising was based on information from the Library of Congress. In any case, the date is at least significant and most would agree it likely was when the US was officially formed as it is today.
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 2883
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tanit,

it's a good question! if you read nic campions book on world horoscopes, he discusses this at length..i think nic - who is very detail orientated - likes the sibley chart - sag rising, but gives much more detail that i am going to share here! pick up the book if you are really interested..

the sag rising chart will have uranus on the descendant, instead of the ascendant.. with the flip - mercury is now ruling the descendant, as opposed to the ascendant - and in the 8th... mars in the 7th too, squared onto neptune and of course the war star - at about 9 degrees sag is on the ascendant.. the chart has a lot of merit for different reasons... i am really not attached to any of these charts.. if you get the book you will see there are manymore then just 2 charts to consider..
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Arvind



Joined: 07 Nov 2016
Posts: 56

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SGFoxe wrote:
show me your evidence rather than citing 'authority' ... what kind of intimate cnnection w/history does the sag rising chart bear?

Whoa there SGFox! Please identify who you are responding to. I didn't really perceive anyone in this thread being particularly pontifical about the US chart. All I said IMO, I thought the Sa rising was the best of the July 4th charts, if you had to choose one, that is. That's a far cry from an argument. Frankly, I don't like any of the July 4th charts and don't use them in prediction.

If you want an argument... All of your metaphysical connections are just pure chance. Barack Obama's chart based on his released birth certificate has not produced a reliable prediction, and I'm not the only astrologer to bank that... So, there. LOL and lighten up. I'm backing out of this thread, back to lurking for me.
Cheers.
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WooWoo



Joined: 05 Apr 2013
Posts: 917

Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't you want to be looking at the 6th Nov US Mid Term Elections ?

As you know I'm very much Stock Market and Economy focused but as we live in a Capitalist World they are pretty well No 1.

And surprise surprise early November is a Turning Point down. Or perhaps further down, as the 15th Sept is definitely the start of long term Decline.

Jupiter completes his inconjunction with r.Uranus on the 8th Nov, and that is a confusing tone to read. It is generally a Euphoric Energy for the Markets.

Jupiter then moves into Sagittarius and is sort of a Home run too.

So using My Method I'd say it is NOT at all clear Trumpy looses in Nov but Economic Decline definitely is coming from the 15th Sept onwards.

And from the 8th Nov even more so.

H


Last edited by WooWoo on Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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