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Identify with Saturn in 5th and 11th
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Miss Watson



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
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Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:51 pm    Post subject: Identify with Saturn in 5th and 11th Reply with quote

Hello,

I would like to know if there is any explanation for me identifying myself with both Saturn in the 5th house and the 11th.
I know the exact birth time, and I have Saturn in 5th House in Aquarius opposed to Jupiter in Leo in 11th.

Saturn and Jupiter don't touch any other planet. I paid an astrologer to try to understand a lot of things, but he was a 'false' astrologer and invented several things.

And also, do you think the fact I'm almost 30 can make things get better in both aspects?
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Paul
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Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Watson

I think it would help to post the chart and give us some understanding of what you mean by identifying with Saturn in the 5th and 11th.
What do people who have Saturn in the 5th feel like? What do people who have Saturn in the 11th feel like? What issues or crises do they face?

Chances are you really asking this question so as to better get awareness of your own Saturnine issues, and it could be that only some of those issues are genuinely related to Saturn and others may be related to some other as of yet unidentified part of the chart.

Regardless of how we get there, it's likely that really you want to know how to better manage or deal with certain problems or crises in your life, and perhaps you could tell us a little about that and how you understand Saturn, even theoretically, may fit into all this.
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Michael Sternbach



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Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Paul that your question as asked is somewhat abstract. My only handle right now on your 'identifying with' Saturn in 11th (based on what little information we got from you so far) would be that you have this planet in Aquarius, the very sign that in my view is related with the 11th house (although some of the traditionalists on this forum may not agree to this). But it would really be helpful to take a look at your chart overall in order to better understand your question and (again in line with Paul's comment) the issues that may underlie it respectively. Perhaps you could also tell us more about how the contradiction (?) of feeling Saturn in those opposite houses manifests itself in your experience.
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Miss Watson



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Paul and Michael!
Indeed, I was not clear enough.

Here's the map
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1i9hhtRMcPQ6zeZXVFp4EMn94sP1BZjpj/view?usp=sharing
(due to the slow internet, that was the only way I found to post the image, sorry).

When I paid an astrologer, I would like to understand the reason I don't identify so much with my astral map in general, and the planets and angles it makes sense to me are the moon in pisces, sun in taurus, saturn in 5th (and 11th, as I said).
So, I looked for any information on internet about all the planets, but of course, isn't perfect to look at interpretations separately.

I'll post a brief insight about what I feel like (information found on internet, sorry my bad translation into english):
Saturn in 5th
• you can feel some guilt and an exaggerated sense of responsibility;
• When a child, the person was susceptible to the authorities and the rules of good behavior too rigid.
• The person is shy and has difficulty exposing himself.
• The first instinct is to contain, repress, dominate one's own energy.
• The person may realize that he have to work harder than others to reach the same goals.
• They always have problems with their children or are afraid of parenting/motherhood, fear of not being a good father/mother.
• Tendency to repress sexuality.
• Engage in roances that require heavy obligations. / A shutdown, where you can avoid early romantic contacts altogether because you feel tough and awkward.

Saturn in 11th
• When a child prefered to be alone and perform productive tasks while others have fun and waste time according to their perception.
• Like older, stabilized, serious and responsible friends, with more knowledge, status and power
• In childhood you may have had striking challenges with groups and have left the group for disagreements about rules and behavior.
• The person's friendships don't last long. Tipically breaks for some reason.
• He is ambitious, cautious, patient, timid, reserved and serious in their relationships and attitudes.
• Too radical, if you leave a group or leave a friend does not go back.
• Want to make a mark on the lives of those who share their humanitarian ideals.

- Miss Watson.
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james_m



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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

miss watson,

i too found your first post confusing, so i didn't bother responding...

i appreciate english is not your first language..

any cookbook astrology you read about is just that... it is like looking at part of a recipe, but you can't see what the thing tastes like from looking at only a part of the recipe... that would be like looking at descriptions of saturn in the 5th or 11th and trying to put it into the context of your life...

you are better off focusing on learning the fundamentals of astrology if you have taken the time to get this far.. but i would concentrate on the sun, moon and ascendant first to use as a basis for everything else..

i imagine the issue of having children looms large in your life... you haven't gotten to the first saturn return yet either... i think it is best you let your life unfold however it is going to unfold and continue to make the best decisions you can about moving forward, while skipping getting caught up in trying to figure out in advance how things are going to unfold...

i don't know what creative or artist pursuits you are involved in, but i hope you are involved in something creative as that is an important element to this chart.. cheers james
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Michael Sternbach



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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Watson

Thanks for giving us the additional information we asked for, but to be honest, I still don't understand what makes you think that your Saturn is in your 11th house, somehow. According to the chart, he is in the 5th house, and Jupiter is in 11th.

Some think that a planet can belong to two adjacent houses at the same time if he/she is near a cusp, but never in two opposite ones.
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Tanit3333



Joined: 12 Jul 2017
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Posted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
When a child prefered to be alone and perform productive tasks while others have fun and waste time according to their perception.
• Like older, stabilized, serious and responsible friends, with more knowledge, status and power
• In childhood you may have had striking challenges with groups and have left the group for disagreements about rules and behavior.
• The person's friendships don't last long. Tipically breaks for some reason.
• He is ambitious, cautious, patient, timid, reserved and serious in their relationships and attitudes.
• Too radical, if you leave a group or leave a friend does not go back.
• Want to make a mark on the lives of those who share their humanitarian ideals


I would look at your sun in the 8th, which is square Saturn, opposite Pluto and also trines Uranus. The orb is wide for the square but is still within classical orb (within 12 degrees) and Sun square Saturn in general shows a serious side to the personality and can show a lone wolf and makes it more difficult for others to be at ease around you without other factors to help. Sun opposite Pluto can be ambitious and opinionated. Sun trine Uranus often has a radical point of view (also sometimes humanitarian bends, especially with Neptune involved) and if you add Pluto in the mix it can put friends off of your way of voicing opinions.
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Miss Watson



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
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Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello forum!
I appreciate your answers.

James,
Quote:
any cookbook astrology you read about is just that... it is like looking at part of a recipe, but you can't see what the thing tastes like from looking at only a part of the recipe

I feel like is hard to find information that makes sense, since I had read a couple of books about it, but I still don't understand how to gather all the information and see which one is most important or stronger.


Michael and Tanit,

Tanit is right in everything!
Quote:
can show a lone wolf and makes it more difficult for others to be at ease around you without other factors to help.


For me it's hard to make friends or having lasting friendship.
It already happened that I had a group of friends, and I pulled away of all of them suddenly because I couldn't trust anyone. Or I just walk away of some friends for no apparent reason.
That strikes me as the quality of a Saturn in the 11th House. That's the reason I say I identify with a Saturn in the 11th.
People often say that I am very serious at first sight. To be honest, I don't like this. I feel like I'm awkward and shy when approaching people. This Ascendant in Libra doesn't make sense for me.

About Saturn in the 5th:
In fact, I don't like the idea of having children (but of course, we can never say never).
I read Saturn in 7th House is about serious relationships, while Saturn in 5th, is about the early romantic contacts. I always avoid engage in romances, and everything I said about approching people to make friends, I can say about romantic partnerships as well.

So, in this case, would make me to identify with Saturn in 5th House too.

I have never seen anyone saying identified with the two opposing houses this way, so I believe that an opposition would connect these two houses.
Confused

(Another detail is that I found in another astrology forum, people with the astral map equal to mine (with only minutes difference, or city that didn't have influence in the houses), but only I had that impression.)
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Tanit3333



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Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is common to relate to interpretations for other influences that lead to similar results. I am often friends with those who have a lot of Aquarius in their chart and I relate to the sign of Aquarius in a lot of ways, such as being a little eccentric, aloof, detached, thinking more about a group than an individual, etc., even though I have no planets in that sign and it rules my 8th, which is empty. I see where that happens in my chart though, such as my Sun in the 11th opposite Uranus and Moon square Saturn. The Sun can be very important in looking at the personality, especially in a day chart, such as your own where the Sun is above the horizon. It isn't the only factor but it is usually significant, in combo with the lord of geniture and the ascendant ruler especially.
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james_m



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Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit3333 wrote:
It is common to relate to interpretations for other influences that lead to similar results.


this is very true... i was thinking of your comments below -
Tanit3333 wrote:
Sun square Saturn in general shows a serious side to the personality and can show a lone wolf and makes it more difficult for others to be at ease around you without other factors to help. Sun opposite Pluto can be ambitious and opinionated. Sun trine Uranus often has a radical point of view (also sometimes humanitarian bends, especially with Neptune involved) and if you add Pluto in the mix it can put friends off of your way of voicing opinions.


for me the strong pluto in the chart - in a close opposition to sun is more about the lone wolf which i associate more with pluto then saturn... in fact if one uses the language of modern astrology, there is a very close pattern involving 4 planets that include the sun and moon with mars and pluto - a kite is the term that is used from modern astrology.. the opposition with pluto and the sun are a key part to this picture... i suppose it is complicated further with the opposition of mars to neptune /north node too, but overall i sense a very strong pluto energy to the chart - which for me is the lone wolf dynamic that miss watson agrees with here...

now, how much of saturn and pluto symbology is interwoven? probably a good amount... the very close trines with moon,mars and pluto - the grand trine - put the moon at the midpoint of mars/pluto, sun at the midpoint of moon/mars and mars/nodes at the midpoint of moon/pluto... all in all - it seems to me that pluto, if one acknowledges it in a chart - is even more pronounced then saturn here..

this brings me back to trying to figure out how much emphasis or not one would give to pluto... i have moved towards factoring saturn much more heavily that all the planets, whether one includes the outers or not, so it was interesting for me to see your comment tying saturn to the idea of lone wolf which i also think has a lot of merit..
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Paul
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Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for providing the chart and some more information.

Clearly your Saturn is in the 5th and I wonder if you were associating things to saturn in the 11th that could be easily seen elsewhere.

I think it may be worthwhile exploring your astrological Sun in great detail. It is in the 8th houes which is naturally explorative of the inner psyche and inner world of others around them - with the opposition to Pluto you know that things are not always as they seem and so you naturally have a kind of sixth sense or spidey sense about danger as well as the false smiles of those around you - people hold up veneers and construct their image and whilst you may not always be able to crack that veneer and see beyond them (and often you are), you will recognise that there is a veneer there nonetheless, and whilst you may not be able to articulate your sense of unease in certain social situations, you can recognise that there are political undercurrents and ulterior motives to eveyrone around you. The end result is someone quite untrusting of others - once you have seen the darkness in those around you, it can be difficult sometimes to find the light.

The square to Saturn only propogates this further, and makes you prefer isolating yourself somewhat from social situations in part because by doing so you sort of "get there first", before they can isolate or betray or not respect you, you may wish to pull away first. This may be infuriating for those around you who love and care about you as they may feel that your lack of trust and openness creates a barrier and friction between you and them. Sometimes noting that things aren't what they seem is simply just that people are doing their best to pretend to have a good time or a good day as much because it's all they can do or the best they can do. It may have nothing to do with you. However, an underlying fear that you will be humiliated, disrespected or betrayed runs deep and may be quite unconscious (it's difficult to tell without a consultation) and so you may find you unconcsiously orchestrate the very things you always feared would happen. By pulling back and treating others with suspicion or wanting to control the social situations around you or at least your relation to them, you can create a situation where pepole start to distrust you or wonder about your own motives - this can lead to you feeling that people dont' trust you or are talking about you or have ulterior motives of their own.

Letting go and recognising that other people's opinions of you are none of your business and that you are not responsible nor in charge of others or their reactions to you is likely the best way to step forward past this. Ask yourself what is the real fear in social situations? Is it disrespect? Lack of control? What would really be the worst that can happen anyway?

Another problem is that the intensity of the Sun/Pluto/Square can be that you may expect a sense of unfaltering loyalty and unconditional patience and support - you know realistically that nobody can really provide this, and yet there is a sense of intensity that you may apply to 'every day' situations that can be off putting to others who simply enjoy a more easy come easy go mentality.

In modern astrology the sun is in a kite formation, so for many reasons that sun is highlighted for me. Try to explore it more and what the aspects may mean to you.

On another note there's a grand trine involved with this aspect configuration between Pluto, Mars and the Moon with the Moon, ruler of the 10th receiving Mars (who is in fall) and there is a natural tendency perhaps to be aware of dangers with interpersonal relationships - are you in a romantic relationsihp? It is important to avoid toxic relationships but also to avoid getting too comfortable and using relationships as a buffer to protect you from having to get out there and socialise and speak to people and develop more healthy relationships with a wider variety of people.
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Miss Watson



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Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tanit3333 wrote:
It is common to relate to interpretations for other influences that lead to similar results.


As I see in other answers, it was exactly what I did Confused
I appreciate your comment, Tanit! In fact, the Sun is very important in my chart.

james_m wrote:

for me the strong pluto in the chart - in a close opposition to sun is more about the lone wolf which i associate more with pluto then saturn... in fact if one uses the language of modern astrology, there is a very close pattern involving 4 planets that include the sun and moon with mars and pluto - a kite is the term that is used from modern astrology.. the opposition with pluto and the sun are a key part to this picture... i suppose it is complicated further with the opposition of mars to neptune /north node too, but overall i sense a very strong pluto energy to the chart - which for me is the lone wolf dynamic that miss watson agrees with here...


Once I created a topic here about this Kite patttern in order to understand (thanks for mentioning it!).
I feel that this connection of planets is very important, although I have never been able to interpret how this really intertwined.
At the time I wanted to understand how I could work in a career that aligned with my purpose in life, on account of my unemployment.
Now I'm more concerned with understanding the map as a whole.

What confused me most is that many people (including the astrologer I hired) did not interpret Pluto, Uranus and Neptune, so I want to study my map deeply!
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Miss Watson



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Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul wrote:

I think it may be worthwhile exploring your astrological Sun in great detail. It is in the 8th houes which is naturally explorative of the inner psyche and inner world of others around them - with the opposition to Pluto you know that things are not always as they seem and so you naturally have a kind of sixth sense or spidey sense about danger as well as the false smiles of those around you

The square to Saturn only propogates this further, and makes you prefer isolating yourself somewhat from social situations in part because by doing so you sort of "get there first", before they can isolate or betray or not respect you, you may wish to pull away first.

In modern astrology the sun is in a kite formation, so for many reasons that sun is highlighted for me. Try to explore it more and what the aspects may mean to you.

On another note there's a grand trine involved with this aspect configuration between Pluto, Mars and the Moon with the Moon, ruler of the 10th receiving Mars (who is in fall) and there is a natural tendency perhaps to be aware of dangers with interpersonal relationships - are you in a romantic relationsihp? It is important to avoid toxic relationships but also to avoid getting too comfortable and using relationships as a buffer to protect you from having to get out there and socialise and speak to people and develop more healthy relationships with a wider variety of people.


The answers from all of you were very enlightening. I took time reading everything and reflecting how this all applied in my life in various circumstances.


Paul, you did a great analysis, thank you so much! It's all I feel.
The fact that I have been seeking Saturn's compreenhension is the difficulty of approaching and trusting even in affective relationships. I thought there must be some karmic connection for me to act in a cautious way.

But Pluto displays its strength on the map! According to astro.com, the dominant planet is Mars and second to the Moon, and third, Pluto. And I need to take a closer look at this Kite pattern and how it affects me. I think it's necessary to start with it.

Thanks! Very Happy
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Paul
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Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Watson wrote:


What confused me most is that many people (including the astrologer I hired) did not interpret Pluto, Uranus and Neptune, so I want to study my map deeply!


That's a real shame that you did not understand your own chart more clearly from the astrologer you saw. Whilst I firmly believe all charts can be read without the outer planets and all the significant themes of your life can be read with just the traditional planets, I personally do use them and find that they can add more colour or nuance to the interpretation. On a modern form I challenged the notion that the outers are a requirement for interpretation and read a half a dozen or so natal charts and interpreted them psychologically so as to prove the point. What I mean by this is that not using the outers is really not enough for the astrologer to have not hit closer to home on your chart or perhaps explain it better in a way that resonated with you - having said that, we all have bad days, perhaps you got him/her on a bad day.
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Tanit3333



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Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

What confused me most is that many people (including the astrologer I hired) did not interpret Pluto, Uranus and Neptune, so I want to study my map deeply!


Are they a traditional astrologer? Traditional astrologers would not look at those infliences. I honestly don't know why anyone would ignore the outer planets when they provide so much information, but each astrologer may give you information that another astrologer might not see because there is always so much to discover.

It is important before paying money for astrological services to make sure that the style of the astrologer aligns with the type of reading you are looking for. Sometimes they can give you example readings so that you can get a feel for what to expect. I have had various types of readings from many astrologers over the years and none of them have the same exact approach (or skill), which is good because not everyone is looking for the same thing - some people want predictions, some self discovery, etc. No one will ever be more interested in your chart than you though, so if you want to understand your chart, I think the best way is to basically do what you are doing - ask questions, look at other resources, etc.
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