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significator of the quesited

 
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 11:05 pm    Post subject: significator of the quesited Reply with quote

they say astrologers are ruled by mercury - someone with good language skills being a part of it... i am not ruled by mercury, in case it doesn't already show.. more moon i guess..

i read these kinds of statements and although i know they are coming out of horary which i don't have any chops in, but man o man - could folks update the lingo, or is that going against the grain??

bottom line for me when i started reading john frawleys book - the real astrology applied was - wtf does this mean?

i had to look it up.. i could torture myself reading a william lilly book, but i am getting my kicks with Frawley instead, lol..

on another note - i am presently listening to one of chris brennans podcast on essential dignity and etc with charlie obert.. i am enjoying it.. you can check it out if you are interested on chris brennans website..
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Tom
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Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you're reading Frawley, you might come upon his rebuttal to the idea that Uranus rules astrologers: "We are thinkers, not eccentrics."

Mercury seems to be the orphaned child of modern astrology. He's "communication" and little else. The fact is that Ptolemy gave him a major role in determining the "wit" of the native. He didn't mean the ability to summon up clever remarks on the spot. He meant native intelligence. Finding the planet or planets that most engaged Mercury and the Moon gave us the significators of the manners. This is the combination of rational thinking and imagination that defines our abilities to use our "little gray cells," as Poroit would put it.

Frawley also used, in the first issues of the Astrologer's Apprentice, Mercury as significator of the Devil, after duly noting most traditionalists would pick Saturn, while most moderns would pick Pluto. Mercury is amoral (at best). In the story of The Fall in Genesis, Eve is tempted by words alone. He is, in Stephen Forest's phrase, "the trickster." He is Loki in Norse mythology, the rational god that ruins the world when set free. Think HAL in 2001 a Space Odyssey.

In modern astrology he's a borderline nuisance. He's too close to the Sun to be of much use, and they have Uranus to pick up the slack. Who needs the messenger of the gods? Well, we do. He can tell us quite a bit about ourselves and the way we think and express ourselves. Ever see those cartoons and sometimes in movies, the good angel and the bad angel whispering in the protagonist's ear? They're both Mercury.

Astrologers are, or should be, thinkers - objective thinkers. In order to see two sides of everything, we need Mercury. Just be careful with him.
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Wade



Joined: 20 Jul 2013
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Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
they say astrologers are ruled by mercury - someone with good language skills being a part of it... i am not ruled by mercury, in case it doesn't already show.. more moon i guess..

i read these kinds of statements and although i know they are coming out of horary which i don't have any chops in, but man o man - could folks update the lingo, or is that going against the grain??


I don't know if they're coming out of horary specifically. astrologers were always equated with 'artists', 'mathematician's, 'philosophers'. if you think about the skills you needed to be a functional astrologer before the advent of modern technology, you can see why Mercury is so often referenced.

but aside from technical skill, the myths of Hermes/Mercury involve passage between worlds. the connection and link between Macrocosm and Microcosm are two worlds in and of themselves, so there is a deeper significance here.

james_m wrote:
bottom line for me when i started reading john frawleys book - the real astrology applied was - wtf does this mean?

i had to look it up.. i could torture myself reading a william lilly book, but i am getting my kicks with Frawley instead, lol..


he is fun to read, isn't he?

Tom wrote:
If you're reading Frawley, you might come upon his rebuttal to the idea that Uranus rules astrologers: "We are thinkers, not eccentrics."

Mercury seems to be the orphaned child of modern astrology. He's "communication" and little else. The fact is that Ptolemy gave him a major role in determining the "wit" of the native. He didn't mean the ability to summon up clever remarks on the spot. He meant native intelligence.


I like how you worded this, Tom.

Tom wrote:
Finding the planet or planets that most engaged Mercury and the Moon gave us the significators of the manners. This is the combination of rational thinking and imagination that defines our abilities to use our "little gray cells," as Poroit would put it.

Frawley also used, in the first issues of the Astrologer's Apprentice, Mercury as significator of the Devil, after duly noting most traditionalists would pick Saturn, while most moderns would pick Pluto. Mercury is amoral (at best). In the story of The Fall in Genesis, Eve is tempted by words alone. He is, in Stephen Forest's phrase, "the trickster." He is Loki in Norse mythology, the rational god that ruins the world when set free. Think HAL in 2001 a Space Odyssey.

In modern astrology he's a borderline nuisance. He's too close to the Sun to be of much use, and they have Uranus to pick up the slack. Who needs the messenger of the gods? Well, we do. He can tell us quite a bit about ourselves and the way we think and express ourselves. Ever see those cartoons and sometimes in movies, the good angel and the bad angel whispering in the protagonist's ear? They're both Mercury.

Astrologers are, or should be, thinkers - objective thinkers. In order to see two sides of everything, we need Mercury. Just be careful with him.


agree with you on all the above. I think I struggle, though, with agreeing that astrology and astrologers should fall under Mercury. I think that's a bit reductive. I personally find all of astrology to be quite solar in every way. each planet derives its strength, in whole or in some major part, from the Sun. in like way each planet contributes something to the practice of astrology (e.g., Mercury gives a penchant for understanding technical details and ways of thinking, but Jupiter provides the wisdom to fit the details into the big picture instead of the other way around), but as astrology is primarily the study of natural cycles, and how we understand ourselves within these cycles, I can't see how astrology is not principally solar. but I'm happy to agree to disagree with anyone on this point.
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Tanit3333



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Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought astrologers were ruled by Jupiter? I remember a thread on this several years ago, and I have noticed a trend in strong Jupiters for astrologers, especially very skilled ones. Maybe it was Robert Hand that I heard say it somewhere, but I cannot seem to recall. I have spoken to Vedic astrologers who use Jupiter also, and one told me that my Jupiter in the 2nd (exhalted in Cancer in Vedic, but Leo in Western) showed being able to predict the future (he said that it is the house that rules the voice and an unaspected and exalted Jupiter there shows speaking the word of God in prophecy). I am not a professional astrologer, however.

I would think a well placed Mercury could help in any field!
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Tom
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Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wade Caves wrote:

Quote:
I think that's a bit reductive. I personally find all of astrology to be quite solar in every way.


After I posted, I thought I recalled this a bit differently than I wrote it, but I didn't and don't feel like hunting through all sorts of stuff to confirm it. Frawley said Astrology was ruled by Mercury and then added "we are thinkers not eccentrics." So the first part was the subject the second the individuals. That might be a distinction without a difference though. I still prefer Mercury to the Sun. Having the Sun rule astrology/astrologers seems a bit ostentatious, but that's just me. When I think of solar figures I think of Christ. I'm not in that league. Cool

Tanit wrote:


Quote:
I thought astrologers were ruled by Jupiter?


This makes sense. Not as ostentatious as the Sun, a bit more sophisticated than Mercury. I propose a compromise: Jupiter rules the subject, Mercury rules the astrologer.

Let's muddy the waters a bit by appealing to authority. From Lee Lehman's indispensable The Book of Rulerships:

The astrologer ruled by Mercury accrding to: Al Biruni, Gadbury, Lilly, Partridge, Ptolemy, and Ramesey

Lilly adds Gemini

Ptolemy adds Scorpio

Lilly and Ptolemy say Virgo.

They all make sense to me except Scorpio

Astrology (the subject) is specifically mentioned by Gadbury as Mercury in the 9th.

Tanit also brought up signatures in the chart. There are a few of those, but they are less rulership than positions in the chart or aspects that are prominent in the charts of prominent astrologers. Whether that passes statistical muster or not, I can't say.
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Wade



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Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
[color=darkblue]Having the Sun rule astrology/astrologers seems a bit ostentatious, but that's just me. When I think of solar figures I think of Christ. I'm not in that league. Cool


I wouldn't give astrologers to the Sun, just astrology. how one practices astrology will be unique, so maybe as a class of people we might be Mercury/Jupiter, but astrology itself I think is a bit bigger than one planet, unless we're talking about a luminary like the Sun. personal opinion, though. Smile
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james_m



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Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks everyone for the additional comments on the topic of what planet most connects with astrologers.. i think i picked up mercury from my reading all the hellenistic astro books from a few years ago. that seemed to be the general consensus.. however everyone makes interesting comments that i relate to as well..

as for astrology itself, i suppose it has to encompass it all..

i do think the attempt of astrologers from the 1900's to incorporate meaning and relevance on the outer planets would have muddied the waters - however unintentional - with uranus being given a role in all of this too.. back before uranus was discovered - mercury seemed the planet most associated with astrologers.. i do feel a prominent uranus shows up an undue amount of time in the charts of astrologers.. whether that is an angular uranus - which could express itself a number of different ways - or some strong mercury-uranus connection or something like this - i think uranus is a planet that i tend to associate with astrology.

of course this flies in the face of frawleys comment - we are thinkers, not eccentrics.. lol... that is how he sees it, but many ordinary people who don't have much of any involvement in astrology see it quite differently! and - he has an exact sun-uranus sextile too, which is mostly drowned out by the angular sun - saturn opposition in his chart..

i think the ongoing challenge for astrology is moving forward with what we know now, while not throwing out the great benefit of knowledge of astrology that has come out in the past 25 years too..

i do see this thread title "significator of the quesited" as coming out of horary.. i suppose if it can be applied to mundane or natal astrology - i just haven't internalized it in my studies that way.. in fact, as i said in the initial comment - is there a way to modernize that ? i find the way it is expressed confusing.. regardless - thanks for the conversation here everyone!
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Donna Chang



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Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:

In modern astrology he's a borderline nuisance. He's too close to the Sun to be of much use, and they have Uranus to pick up the slack. Who needs the messenger of the gods? Well, we do. He can tell us quite a bit about ourselves and the way we think and express ourselves. Ever see those cartoons and sometimes in movies, the good angel and the bad angel whispering in the protagonist's ear? They're both Mercury.

Astrologers are, or should be, thinkers - objective thinkers. In order to see two sides of everything, we need Mercury. Just be careful with him.

I think this is rather brilliant when you consider the belief that the gods are, in essence, amoral. Each has their own agenda.

Mercury illuminates and confuses. God and devil.
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Tom
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
when you consider the belief that the gods are, in essence, amoral. Each has their own agenda.

Mercury illuminates and confuses. God and devil.


Exactly. I think this observation highlights a major difference between paganism and the Judeo-Christian ethic. The pagan gods are amoral. Success is largely attributed to getting on the side of the right god at the right time. Although it is true some gods have better reputations than others.

This is not true in the Old and New Testaments where God is pretty much it. His way is just: end of discussion. His way or the highway and we don't like where the highway leads.

I read an idea recently and I'm not going to give credit other than to deny it to myself. He is somewhat controversial lately and I don't want the controversy to get in the way of the idea. He said, roughly, that if we strip away layer after layer of the reasons for human behavior, ultimately we get to a Bible story. Bible stories have morals or lessons we are encouraged to take to heart. Modern astrologers that use mythology, usually in concert with Jung, are saying pretty much the same thing, but look at the difference when we get to the bottom layer. On one side we have the actions of amoral gods, on the other a strict father figure who dispenses justice, which, in theory or theology, is unambiguous and correct. Even His punishments are perfectly just; see Dante's Inferno for example.

In the real world, however, results of human activity are ambiguous (sometimes) until we get to Hell (Stalin's Russia, the Gulag, the Third Reich et al). We never get to heaven on earth.

Is Mercury the key in the birth chart to getting to the bottom of things either via paganism or Western theology? Put another way, how can we use Mercury (if we can) to determine human motivation?

One quick example, lest this get way too long: one of my favorite charts is General George S. Patton. Mercury is in the 6th house (Placidus et al) but 7th sign (Whole sign houses). He rules the ASC from his detriment, Sagittarius. Mercury is square Mars on the IC (A Gauquelin sector for first rank military leaders). Patton's war successes are well documented, but this configuration speaks of a man who was at constant war with himself. He probably was afflicted with learning disabilities, which made academics very difficult. His personality was abrasive and that would hurt his potential advancement, so he had to work at developing charm (it didn't always work, but sometimes it did) to overcome that handicap. He had wide ranging military interests, but mostly he immersed himself in the history of great battles.

His Mercury worked through a debilitated Jupiter (in Virgo), but one that would change signs via progression during his life. Jupiter ruled his 7th (War - marriage - he married well) and his Pisces MC (career/reputation).

What about the Bible story? I'm not sure at this point. Rising and falling would be the theme. I'm thinking (not persuaded at this point) of Noah. Noah did what he was told to do by his superiors (like a military man should), saved humanity in the process and planted a vineyard so he could make wine and get drunk. This needs more work, but is possibly sufficient to make a point.
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Tom
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me work on the Noah thing a bit more. The history of the world is the history of systems periodically breaking down. The Noah story is the "original" such story, so to speak, of chaos breaking down order. God sees the world is not working out to his liking, so, in Mark Twain's unforgettable description, decides to save a sample and drown the rest.

Why save Noah? Noah aligned himself with the transcendent. He found favor with God and was rewarded by participating in the reboot of history.

OK War is chaos. Some American general once observed that the only thing more chaotic than battlefield defeat was victory. Patton is motivated by the idea that he can bring order out of chaos. The world was going through one of its periodic meltdowns. There were two world wars within the span of a single generation. That's chaos. Victory (no matter who wins) restores order. Patton aligns himself with the just side (in his view) and sees himself as just the man to bring order out of chaos like Noah did. When order was restored with an Allied victory, he looked to continue his primary motivation and expressed his desire to fight the Russians (which, in hindsight might not have been as bad an idea as it seemed at the time). So he became impolitic (got drunk?) and lost his command.

Mercury (and he was often described as "mercurial") shows him at war with himself and perhaps a psychologist would argue that he projected those warlike feelings on to his job at just the right time in history. One is left to wonder what the result would have been, had he been born into a period of relative peace?
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james_m



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Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for sharing your musings tom!

you seem to be caught up in the bible some.. i found your comments interesting and fun to read!

i was reminded of a saying that connects to mercury.. i thought it was attributed to buddha, but it was madame blavatksy! “The mind is the slayer of the real, let the disciples slay the slayer.” on the other hand i seem to recall reading somewhere how mercury is like a symbol for the buddha in astrology..

that saying - 'if you meet buddha, kill him' is attributed to a zen master linji.. apparently he meant this -" Whatever your conception is of the Buddha, it’s WRONG! Now kill that image and keep practicing. This all has to do with the idea that reality is an impermanent illusion. If you believe that you have a correct image of what it means to be Enlightened, then you need to throw out (kill) that image and keep meditating."

maybe that can apply to mercury too here? it seems to be in the nature of mercury to create two opposites that divide and confuse as much as they enlighten... i suppose that is why mercury and jupiter are viewed as opposites.. well, don't ask me to explain that, but it makes sense to me..
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Tom
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
it seems to be in the nature of mercury to create two opposites that divide and confuse as much as they enlighten


That's the result. Duality is Mercury's nature.

As for the Bible, I'm trying to do, sort of, what some astrologers try to do with Greek and Roman mythology (with some Arab mythology thrown in). Jung worked with myth and astrologers who've taken Jung into their astrology lean toward pagan myth for their archetypes. That's fine, but Bible stories are archetypal, too, and I don't see why they can't be used in the same way. I have to admit to clumsy beginning attempts though. And the pagan side has an advantage, the signs, planets etc all have pagan names and the archetype is built in. Using the Bible we center on behavior not planets. Integrating the Bible stories and the planets is challenging, assuming it an be done at all.

It works with psychology and even world events, bringing in astrology is the tough part.
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james_m



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Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tom,

i think it is a good idea what you are doing with the bible, as they are archetypal stories too... might be a good starting point for a thesis or book..

maybe i worded it wrong - but yes - duality - that is very much mercury to me.. in that regard it is the slayer of the real..
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