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Skyscript Astrology Forum

"Will This Lawyer Prove To Be Any Good?"
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The file in the horary report in SF seems to factor in mutual reception, which apparently follows Ptolemy. This same file appears as 'Essential Dignities (Ptolemy)' in some of the page objects used in creating pages. This chart has a Sun-Mars triplicity MR (using Mars as the day water Triplicity ruler), so it is given the 3 points for Triplicity. Mars gets 5 for Ruler, 1 for Face and 3 for the Triplicity MR to total 9. I believe you can change it. I have created my own essential dignity files which I use on the pages I have created.
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Papretis



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 346
Location: Finland

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk is right, Solar Fire is very adjustable. Here's what you can do to get
SF to calculate the dignities as you like:

Utilities --> Dignity/Almuten Editor --> essdig.alm --> open.
Now a new window, "Almuten Editor" opens and here you can score the dignities as you like. Then click File --> Save as... and now name the file as you like. This way you don't write on the existing files.

Then open the Horary Page (if that's what you use) and click the box in the right upper corner with the right button of the mouse. You get "Page Selection by Topic" --> Edit... Now click the "Essential Dignities" box and look at the box on the right and find line "Dignity File". Click it and then click the small ">" under the words "Essential Dignities (1)". A box called "Select Dignity File" opens and now choose the file you've created --> Open. Now on the Page Desinger page: File --> Save --> shut the page and click Apply. Voilá, now the scoring should be as you like.

Sari


Last edited by Papretis on Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 576

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Deb"]
Quote:
would it be a true to state that neither of these horaries can answer the question "Will I win custody of my children", which, in fact, is probably the true burning question in the querent's mind, since she did not word it as such in either case, probably as a result of her traumatic emotional state?”

No I don’t think that’s the case. Where there is a genuine concern, my experience is that the chart goes to the heart of that concern regardless of how clumsily the question is framed....I think this chart will reflect the legal process involved in this case, and the things the querent needs to be aware of when working with the lawyer she has appointed.

I also believe that astrology gives us the information that will be most useful to us, regardless of whether this is the direct answer to the question or not.....

In this chart, the Moon is applying to a square of the father’s significator, but then later it moves to an opposition of the mother’s – this might show that there is no clear ‘win or lose’ but that both parties need to be prepared to compromise a little in their expectations. If they don’t, both might end up feeling that they were let down by the way the legal proceedings went.

Are you basing the Moon as the indicator of the flow of events here?

Pete has mentioned to me that the children put their dad on a pedestal (I think there is mutual exaltation between the ruler of the father and the children), while they feel more comfortable with their mother (mutual reception by sign between the Moon and the children's rulers). The children clearly are not happy with the situation. Based on what you have said about the horary going to the crux of the matter regardless of how the question is worded, I would think the crux of the matter is the children. In this horary, Venus (mother's lawyer) comes to a conjunction with Saturn (her children) and then I think Mercury (the mother) conjoins them. I'm not exactly sure exactly what happens in what order....But the lawyer "gets" the children first and then they come to the mother? This is the what is confusing me, what would you make of Venus conjuncting Saturn and Mercury conjuncting them?

On the other hand, I don't see any aspects taking place between the father and the children, or the father's lawyer and the children. Not entirely sure how to read this either.

Even if she gets the children, the financial damage that I think she would have to suffer would be very significant; Pete has informed me that she's the one with all the savings and the money and the father is suing her for alimony, and half of her assets; and he's the one with all of the debt, so she may have to pay off half of that as well!! Can this be placed in the context of the Moon opposing the mother's ruler? Can this opposition be attributed to a "loss" of a financial nature?

Another way to look at it could be that even if the mother does get the children, the children resent the whole situation and may hold it against the mother? Apparently, they really do "exalt" the father.

Confused, but I think this horary is saying a lot. What do you think?
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Sungem



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 206
Location: Australia

Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have just received an email reply from Esoteric Technologies (which follows) explaining how Solar Fire planetary strengths are calculated:

I see that I would need to create an account to log in to the forum. Perhaps you might be able to post our following reply yourself?

The essential dignity table scores will vary according the various options that may be set via Solar Fire's dingity/almuten editor.

A score of +9 for Mars and +2 for Venus is consistent with the use of Lilly triplicities and Ptolemaic terms, as well as including scores for mutual receptions. (Mars is in rulership (+4), in face (+1), and in mutual reception by triplicity with the Sun (+3); Venus is in it own term (+2)).

In order to ensure that you are comparing like with like, you would need to review the scoring system to ensure that it conforms with all your scoring preferences (and/or the preferences of the group you are participating in).

To edit the scoring system in Solar Fire, choose Utilities / Dignity/Almuten Editor, and when prompted to open a dignity/almuten file, choose "Essdig.alm" from Solar Fire's main folder (not from the Userdata folder). That is the file that contains the default settings for dignities scores in Solar Fire. (Then use the F1 key if you need further help on the various options).

Regards,
Graham Dawson
(Solar Fire Technical Support)


Hope this is of help to someone.
Sungem
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###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1380

Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Sungem and Mr. Dawson. However, there is an error. SF does indeed by default give 5 points for rulership and not 4, But the points can be customized.

Solar Fire is a superb program.
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Sungem



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 206
Location: Australia

Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kirk

Quick pickup there! Smile I replied to Graham Dawson and thanked him on behalf of the forum and received this in reply:

Thanks for posting the reply. As observed by someone else in the list, I may well have added to the confusion by stating "Mars is in rulership (+4)" - this should have said "Mars is in rulership (+5)". That was due to my personal fallibility - not what Solar Fire actually reported!

I also note that Deb earlier said

Quote:
"The irritating element of commercial software is not being able to adjust, or even establish the criteria by which dignity scores are evaluated. I’ve also noticed computerised programs make a lot of other silly errors – like defining the Moon as void of course when it is immediately applying to a major aspect. But the dignity scores are what I mistrust the most, they are almost reliably incorrect."


Some software may have bugs (hopefully corrected promptly by the developers when brought to their attention), but in our experience by far the the biggest problem with dignity scoring is the plethora of scoring options. To address this, we designed a "dignity/almuten" editor in Solar Fire, which allows such options to be chosen by the user (if the default options are not satisfactory). We have no doubt that, if the scoring system is fully defined, Solar Fire will always give the correct scores according that definition.

Regards,
Graham Dawson
(Solar Fire Technical Support)
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hi Pete,

This is absolutely confusing because I use SF and I have Mars at 6 and Venus at 5 in my essential dignities table. I checked the chart details you gave a number of times and seem to have the same chart.

I do recall some confusion a couple of years back and someone contacted Stephanie (one of the developers of SF in Adelaide) about this. I can't really recall the response but I do remember that they do not differentiate between essential and accidental dignities in the table. Still doesn't make sense in this chart though does it?

I might check this out further. I am curious myself. Of course the best way to make sure you are correct is to do it by hand. After doing this for a while it becomes much easier to determine these things just by looking at the chart. I will email or phone them in the next day or so. I don't really know them but have met them at a few conferences and have found them to be very friendly and helpful. I will let you know what comes of it.

Ok Sue,
and thanks - it certainly needs straightening out...
=
Pete
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Sungem



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 206
Location: Australia

Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete,

I contacted Solar Fire technical support on your behalf and received 2 email replies which I've posted in red above.

Seemed easier for me to give them a call since their head office is in my city.
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Deb
Administrator


Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 4130
Location: England

Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Sungem,

I hope Graham is aware of our thanks for pointing this out. Sorry for my earlier, obviously incorrect comment. Does anyone know if Janus can be customised like this? I have searched through everything I can find to customise the program and can’t find instruction on changing the dignity settings.
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Sungem



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 206
Location: Australia

Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any further news on this situation Pete?
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sungem wrote:
Any further news on this situation Pete?

Hi Sungem,
first of all let me apologise for the delay in replying to you. I've had quite a busy few days and consequently my mind has been somewhat duller and less sharp than normal. Secondly let me thank you for helping out on the SolarFire dignity scores the way you did. I'm sure that helped a lot of people - including me...

As for the situation that the horary presented, well the update at the moment is that the husband is back in the family home and he and the wife have negotiated a settlement that seems reasonable to both parties. She is reunited with her children (ME applying to SA) and she and her lawyer seem to be singing from the same hymn-sheet (ME app to VE).

As for the husband, it has recently emerged that his lawyer dropped him (Moon translating light from Mars to Jupiter by square) and he has found a new lawyer. Not sure of the reason but the Moon rules the turned 11th so I suspect the husband's attitude towards the children may have had something to do with it.
On Aug 12th the querent is petitioning the court to have the husband removed from the home. I'm unsure how this will turn out to be honest, but I'll keep you informed.

Oh by the way, the querent tells me that the actual original question was: "Will this lawyer prove to be good FOR ME?" (my emphasis). This puts a slightly different slant on the horary, but my feeling is still "yes he will."

==
Pete
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 576

Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pete:
Quote:
I've had quite a busy few days and consequently my mind has been somewhat duller and less sharp than normal.

You mean, under normal circumstances it's dull and not that sharp, and it's been duller and less sharp than normal??? Wink
(....just kidding!! )

Quote:
As for the husband, it has recently emerged that his lawyer dropped him (Moon translating light from Mars to Jupiter by square) and he has found a new lawyer.

I find it interesting that in the first horary "When will I see my children",
the husband is Mars and his "helper" (attorney) is Jupiter (turned 2nd)
and Mars is coming to an opposition to Jupiter in 3 degrees (separation of the two)

In this horary, the husband is Jupiter and his helper (turned 2nd) is Mars, and Mars is once again coming to an opposition to Jupiter, but with a little bit of help from the Moon (the translation of light).

The two horaries are linked by virtue of reality (i.e. both of these question were asked by the same woman), and they are both also indicating the separation of the husband from his attorney. It would be interesting to find other similarities between these two charts; i.e. are they both indicating the same "final" outcome?
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Sungem



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 206
Location: Australia

Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good to get an update and doesn't it get curiouser and curiouser?

The Mars-Jupiter opposition looks to have indicated the husband's first lawyer dropping him, however his current lawyer will still be represented by Mars as the ruler of the husband's 2nd house.

Quote:
On Aug 12th the querent is petitioning the court to have the husband removed from the home. I'm unsure how this will turn out to be honest, but I'll keep you informed.


My interpretation of this would be that now the querent and the court (10th) are both represented by Mercury! As the Moon is the querent's co-significator - Mercury (as court) is in the Moon's sign, exhalts the father (Jupiter), respects counsel for both parties (Mars' triplicity and Venus's terms) and has some extra sympathy for the mother (Moon's face). So it might seem the court will make an impartial judgement but in the mother's favour (Mercury conjunct querent's lawyer, Venus), after hearing from both sides. Mercury and Venus both read in the mother's 11th of hopes and wishes. Note Mars, the husband's lawyer is read in the mother's 8th - losing! Of course I'm ignoring the fact that Mercury has retrograded, so I hope this makes sense. I guess the retrograde has to be taken into account and I'm not sure how to go about it. As signigicator for the querent it could indicate her "coming back" to the court as it starts to station again to go direct on the 16th, after taking her husband back into the home while it was retrograde.

Quote:
Oh by the way, the querent tells me that the actual original question was: "Will this lawyer prove to be good FOR ME?" (my emphasis). This puts a slightly different slant on the horary, but my feeling is still "yes he will."


Unless I've got it all wrong above - I think you're right, let's hope so.

PS - the father's significator is conjunct Vindemiatrix. Leaving aside it's widow-maker reputation since it doesn't apply here, Vindemiatrix supposedly is also an indicator of separation and divorce. I guess that is on the cards now. In any case would seem to be further testimony to the father not winning custody of the children.
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Sungem



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 206
Location: Australia

Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Pete: (Moon translating light from Mars to Jupiter by square)


In the post above, I referred to the Mars-Jupiter opposition. I did note Pete's reference to the translation of light, however I'm still coming to terms with translation, collection, prohibition etc. So I'm looking for clarification please.

I think I understand what's happening - that the Moon will square Mars before Mars perfects the opposition to Jupiter. Then the Moon will go on to oppose Jupiter, again before Mars can complete the aspect. My questions are:
    a) Does the translation of the Moon negate/replace the opposition?

    b) When it opposes Jupiter, is the aspect a mixture of the Moon opposing Jupiter and Moon squaring Mars because of the TOL?

    c) Does the opposition of Mars and Jupiter simply happen last?


I'm a bit confused as to how this works as you can see, but it seemed too good an example to pass up.
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