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"Will This Lawyer Prove To Be Any Good?"
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 2:11 am    Post subject: "Will This Lawyer Prove To Be Any Good?" Reply with quote

Hi all,
further to my friend's enquiry about being reunited with her children, she subsequently hired a lawyer, and asked the question:
"Will this lawyer prove to be any good?"

June 22nd 2005
11.47 am EDT
40 n 53, 73 w 39'

Asc: 17 Vir 06'
Moon: 8 Cap 05'

Taking my lead from Lilly, who states in C.A. (somewhere) that in duels the querent's "second" is shown by the ruler of the 2nd house (the resources of the querent), I have decided to make the lawyer here Venus, the ruler of the 2nd house. Venus here is conjoined to Mercury (querent) in the 11th of hope and freedom, and dignifies the Moon. Moreover, he has moderate ability, being in his own terms.
He is expensive; see the s.node in 2nd house and squaring Mercury and Venus. Moreover he trines the P.O.F. on the 7th cusp, whatever that is meant to symbolise.
But the underlying question is : will this lawyer get the children back? The children are here shown by Saturn in detriment. Mercury reaches them first, followed closely behind by Venus, then Mercury and Venus conjoin in Leo.
It would seem to me that this lawyer is capable of doing his -albeit expensive- job.
BTW: Has anyone noticed the T.O.L. between the Moon, Mars and Jupiter? Given that Jupiter is the husband and Mars represents his lawyer (ruler 8th), I wonder what we should make of this - it's very interesting.
Any comments/thoughts on the lawyer?
==
Pete
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Sue



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 945
Location: Australia

Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure I agree with your approach regarding the signification but then perhaps it is that I just don't understand it clearly enough. Regardless, we come up with the same significators anyway.

As I mentioned before, Venus reaches Saturn before Mercury does. This might seem odd but Venus is moving faster than it usually does and is closer to Saturn than Mercury is. As Deb said in her previous post, all the planets are moving quickly so hopefully this will bode well for a speedy resolution. If Venus (her lawyer) reaches Saturn (her children) first, closely followed by Mercury, I wonder if this means that there will be a court order for the husband to hand the children over via the lawyer, as is often the case in situations where the parents are unable to communicate amicably.
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If Venus (her lawyer) reaches Saturn (her children) first, closely followed by Mercury, I wonder if this means that there will be a court order for the husband to hand the children over via the lawyer, as is often the case in situations where the parents are unable to communicate amicably.

That just might be a good call, Sue. I guess we'll just have to wait and see but it's certainly a possible scenario.
This is a somewhat puzzling horary in terms of signification, as "atturneys", advocates and solicitors are placed under Mercury's rulership, according to C.A., p.78, yet here Mercury is the sig of the querent. I suppose a case could be made for the 6th house, since the lawyer is in the querent's employ, but for me the 6th house has too much to do with 'master/servant' relationships, so I discount it.
That's the main reason I chose the 2nd house for the lawyer, because this house represents the resources available to the querent, and her lawyer is certainly a resource, wouldn't you say?
==
Pete
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Sue



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 945
Location: Australia

Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2005 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as I understand, lawyers and solicitors are signified by the ruler of the 9th house. Deb gives a clear and interesting explanation of this in the chapter on the 9th house in her book, 'The Houses'.
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find the original question a little odd. As a lawyer it might be said I have a vested interest here but.... regardless of how "good" your lawyer is, the competence of your lawyer will not (alone) ensure a "good" result. I have seen very good lawyers fail in court with very good cases, simply because the judge's sympathies (as trier of fact) were with the other side.

Nor can a lawyer wave a magic wand and turn a case which is bad on the facts, into a winning case. Then there is the problem of the inherent unpredictability of the legal system. Many cases involve disputes between witnesses, which turn on a judicial assessment of the credibility of those witnesses. When credibility is the deciding factor, it is frequently very difficult to predict the outcome of a case. (the recent Michael Jackson trial a good example!)

However, you do of course want to go into court on the best possible footing, and having a good competent lawyer is obviously important in that respect.

But I would have thought a more obvious (and better) horary question would simply be "will I win the case?" or possibly "will I win the case (using this lawyer)?"
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 574

Posted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kurgal wrote:
I find the original question a little odd. As a lawyer it might be said I have a vested interest here but.... regardless of how "good" your lawyer is, the competence of your lawyer will not (alone) ensure a "good" result. I have seen very good lawyers fail in court with very good cases, simply because the judge's sympathies (as trier of fact) were with the other side.

.......

But I would have thought a more obvious (and better) horary question would simply be "will I win the case?" or possibly "will I win the case (using this lawyer)?"


While the question was worded as it was perhaps in the heat of the moment that the question was asked, I believe the querent could not have meant anything else but "Will this lawyer win my case for me?", because that's what she really cares about, not how good this lawyer is. Wouldn't the horary answer what lies at the "heart" of the question as opposed to the way the question was worded?
Thank you.
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taurus7: I would tend to agree with that. The chart usually goes to the "heart" of the matter and gives us information pertaining to that.

But then tradition seems to also require a fairly precisely-worded question, in order to obtain the best possible answer...

Here it seems that not only the question, but also the method of interpretation and the analysis has been primarily focussed on the competence of the lawyer, rather than on the overall merits of the case.

I suppose that irritates me somewhat, because it plays into the common misconception that the competence of the lawyer is the sole determinator of the outcome.
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 574

Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kurgal wrote:
Taurus7: I would tend to agree with that. The chart usually goes to the "heart" of the matter and gives us information pertaining to that.

Here it seems that not only the question, but also the method of interpretation and the analysis has been primarily focussed on the competence of the lawyer, rather than on the overall merits of the case.



If, indeed, the heart of the question was "Will this lawyer help win my case for me", then what rulers would we be looking at? In other words, what house would have the rulership of the "case"? The case pertains to the children primarily (5th), possessions (2nd), perhaps a tie in with the judge (10th???); but what would be the overall signification of the "case"?


Thank you.
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kurgal



Joined: 04 Jan 2005
Posts: 197
Location: Auckland, New Zealand

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If, indeed, the heart of the question was "Will this lawyer help win my case for me", then what rulers would we be looking at? In other words, what house would have the rulership of the "case"? The case pertains to the children primarily (5th), possessions (2nd), perhaps a tie in with the judge (10th???); but what would be the overall signification of the "case"?




Good question. I think the ultimate outcome or result of the case would be indicated by the 10th House significator, and any placements in the 10th. The 11th House might be relevant as a general indicator of a beneficial resolution of the litigation (whether or not the case ultimately goes to court).

The 5th House is clearly relevant to the querent's children.

The 7th House should be looked at carefully because that indicates the "other side" in the litigation. An assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of the opponent's case is clearly important in any case. So I would be looking pretty closely at the significator of the 7th to see how dignified or afflicted it is.

The 8th House indicates the opponent's resources, including their lawyers, so this house is obviously relevant.

From the information on this site, it would appear that both the 2nd house and the 9th House can signify the querent's lawyers. (2nd House = "resources of the querent". 9th House = lawyers who serve the querent or initiator of the action).

My own preference (whether correct or not I do not know) would be to use the 9th as primary significator of the querent's lawyer. I would use the 2nd to indicate the evidence that one intends to produce to support one's case, that is, the relevant physical evidence.

I wouldn't completely ignore the 3rd House either, as this indicates written correspondence between the parties. In a civil case, such correspondence is particularly important, given that many matters resolve themselves in this way.

And in a family case involving children, even more so, given that one wants to avoid a defended hearing in a courtroom, if at all possible.
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Deb
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Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with everything Kurgal has written above.

The problem with this chart is that the question given to it may not be expressing what the querent truly wishes to explore. Lawyers, as advisors, are generally attributed to the 9th house so I would take primary signification for the lawyer from that if the question was really about how competent and trustworthy he or she may be.

I would also consider what Lilly wrote on p.194: “Of counsel or Advice given, whether it be for good or evil”, which is actually in his 3rd house section although it doesn’t rely on 3rd house signification. He says the chart should be drawn for “when they first begin to break their minds unto you” – and should be judged by the condition of the 10th house and the Moon. The Sun in the 10th house would be a sign that they are honest and pure in their intentions to act on the querent’s behalf.

If the question was really “will we win the case?”, prompted by the querent commissioning a lawyer, (and was less about the lawyer specifically than the case itself), it would be very appropriate to view the lawyer as a person who provides assistance and resources for the querent, and to take their signification from the 2nd house. The astrologer must make this decision. Personally I’d still refer to the 9th house for an understanding of the reliability of the advice given. Fortunately in this chart Venus rules the 2nd and the 9th, so we can be confident that Venus has signification for the querent’s lawyer, and Mars has signification for the husband’s.
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Pete



Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Posts: 301
Location: Kinnelon, New Jersey, USA

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Kurgal and Deb, for your comments and insights.

I would agree with you both that the 9th house would symbolise the lawyer in his role *as a dispenser of wisdom* to the querent and we're fortunate that in this case the 9th is also ruled by Venus, so no conflict occurs between this role and his role as a resource of the querent: 2nd house.
As an aside, does anyone know what criterion SolarFire 5 uses to determine planetary strength? On its horary page it gives Venus a score of +2 in its essential dignities table, and Mars +9. Even if it were just totting up the essential dignities this would be wrong, as Mars would then have a score of +5, not +9.
When I total the dignities (essential and accidental) by hand I come up with Venus +19 and Mars +16.
Very confusing!
==
Pete
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Taurus7



Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 574

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb
Quote:
The problem with this chart is that the question given to it may not be expressing what the querent truly wishes to explore


Kurgal, Deb, Pete, thanks for your responses.
It would appear that perhaps this particular horary may not, after all, answer the true question that the querent needs to know the answer to; i.e. "Will I win custody of the children" (I think possessions, etc. would just be an after-thought; the children are the main event here).
I understand that the original question that was asked by the woman was "When will I see my children again".

Therefore, my question is, would it be a true to state that neither of these horaries can answer the question "Will I win custody of my children", which, in fact, is probably the true burning question in the querent's mind, since she did not word it as such in either case, probably as a result of her traumatic emotional state?
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Sue



Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 945
Location: Australia

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
As an aside, does anyone know what criterion SolarFire 5 uses to determine planetary strength? On its horary page it gives Venus a score of +2 in its essential dignities table, and Mars +9. Even if it were just totting up the essential dignities this would be wrong, as Mars would then have a score of +5, not +9.
When I total the dignities (essential and accidental) by hand I come up with Venus +19 and Mars +16.
Very confusing!


Hi Pete,

This is absolutely confusing because I use SF and I have Mars at 6 and Venus at 5 in my essential dignities table. I checked the chart details you gave a number of times and seem to have the same chart.

I do recall some confusion a couple of years back and someone contacted Stephanie (one of the developers of SF in Adelaide) about this. I can't really recall the response but I do remember that they do not differentiate between essential and accidental dignities in the table. Still doesn't make sense in this chart though does it?

I might check this out further. I am curious myself. Of course the best way to make sure you are correct is to do it by hand. After doing this for a while it becomes much easier to determine these things just by looking at the chart. I will email or phone them in the next day or so. I don't really know them but have met them at a few conferences and have found them to be very friendly and helpful. I will let you know what comes of it.

Cheers
Sue
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Sungem



Joined: 27 Feb 2005
Posts: 206
Location: Australia

Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Pete & Sue

Since SF's home base is Adelaide, I rang them lunchtime and then emailed your problem to Stephanie and asked if she would post a reply to this thread to straighten it out. As yet no response I see.

However, this morning I put the data into Allen Edwall's Horary Helper and according to that, your calculations are correct. Unfortunately, I can't put the actual planet dignities table in for you because it doesn't hold it's columns when copied, Hope this is of some help and that SF respond for you. The following is an edited version of the HH data page:

Sun -2
Moon 4
Mercury 12
Venus 19
Mars 17
Jupiter 7
Saturn 12
Fortuna 12


Mercury day Sun hour


Peregrine - SUN MERCURY JUPITER SATURN MOON
Detriment - MOON SATURN
Fall -
Mutual Reception (by sign) - SATURN-MOON
Mutual Reception (by sign) - URANUS-NEPTUNE
Mutual Reception (by exaltation) - JUPITER-SATURN
Mixed Reception (sign/exaltation) - VENUS-JUPITER

Fixed Stars - VENUS - Pollux JUPITER - Vindemiatrix MOON - Facies PART F. - Markab

Moon's Aspects -
From - OPPOSITE SUN SQUARE MARS
To - SQUARE JUPITER SEXTILE URANUS OPPOSITE MERCURY
OPPOSITE VENUS SEXTILE PART F. OPPOSITE SATURN

Moon's Aspects Within Orb
-------------------------
MOON Opposite sep, sin SUN 6.8 degree
MOON Square sep, sin MARS 0.8 degree
MOON Square APP, dex JUPITER 1.3 degree
MOON Sextile APP, sin URANUS 2.7 degree


Moon's declination = 28 S 06 Moon's declination next day = 26 S 24




Cheers,
Sungem
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Deb
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Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This isn’t just a solar fire problem. I don’t trust any software when it comes to totalling the dignity scores, sometimes they are correct or close to those you’d get using Lilly’s methods, and sometimes they are way out. I always add up the dignities myself – it’s a very quick process once you’re familiar with what you are scoring, and in the process you are acknowledging a lot of important information.

The irritating element of commercial software is not being able to adjust, or even establish the criteria by which dignity scores are evaluated. I’ve also noticed computerised programs make a lot of other silly errors – like defining the Moon as void of course when it is immediately applying to a major aspect. But the dignity scores are what I mistrust the most, they are almost reliably incorrect.

In answer to your question Taurus7:

Quote:
“would it be a true to state that neither of these horaries can answer the question "Will I win custody of my children", which, in fact, is probably the true burning question in the querent's mind, since she did not word it as such in either case, probably as a result of her traumatic emotional state?”


No I don’t think that’s the case. Where there is a genuine concern, my experience is that the chart goes to the heart of that concern regardless of how clumsily the question is framed. But it’s important that there is a very clear understanding between the astrologer and the querent, so that the astrologer is able to discern what the real crux of the matter is, and understands how to read the symbolism in a way that answers the deeper issue, (and not just something that can end up being irrelevant, even though it is answering the question as it was asked). I think this chart will reflect the legal process involved in this case, and the things the querent needs to be aware of when working with the lawyer she has appointed.

I also believe that astrology gives us the information that will be most useful to us, regardless of whether this is the direct answer to the question or not. So astrologers should be very open-minded in their approach, not just demanding specific information and leaving it at that, but questioning the broader meaning of the things we weren’t necessarily looking for. In this chart, the Moon is applying to a square of the father’s significator, but then later it moves to an opposition of the mother’s – this might show that there is no clear ‘win or lose’ but that both parties need to be prepared to compromise a little in their expectations. If they don’t, both might end up feeling that they were let down by the way the legal proceedings went.
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