"When Will I see My Children Again?"

1
Hi all,
in the early hours of Wednesday morning I received a phone call from a very distressed friend of mine who told me that on her return home from work earlier she had found the house empty and both her children and husband missing. Later she received a phone call from him to say that the children were with him and they would remain so until the divorce (which she has just filed for) was over. He also said he intended to counter-sue. As well as taking the children (ages 9 and 13), he had taken many of their clothes, some of his personal effects and some financial investment papers belonging to her. He had also disabled her TV and PC, as well as taken all the telephone handsets.

As you can imagine, my friend was distraught. She kept on repeating over and over: "when will I see my children again?", so I told her I would draw up a horary, the data for which is:

June 22nd 2005
02:43 hrs BST
Birkenhead, UK
53 n 24' 03 w 02'

Moon: 29 Sag 17
Asc 21 Tau 46.

She is shown by the Ascendant, its ruler Venus, and the Moon.
The husband is the 7th, and its ruler Mars
Her children are the 5th house and its ruler, the Sun.

I was immediately struck by a couple of things: the triple conjunction of Mercury (young people?) Venus (her) and Saturn at the IC; If Mercury is the generic ruler of children, then it will conjoin Venus (her) in 2 degrees, signifying reunion. Cardinal signs and angles would suggest 2 days to me, viz: June 24th.
Next I observed the Moon - natural ruler of fugitives and her co-ruler. Here she is in the 8th (fear and mental anguish. No kidding??!!) and at first glance would appear to be void-of-course, but in my book I say no: the Moon is about to oppose the Sun in 1 degree, without reception. I'm not sure what to make of this. It would have made more sense to see that aspect as separating, don't you think?

I was looking specifically for applications between the sigs of her and the children and the one I see is an application by *parallel*, of the Sun to Venus, which becomes exact on July 2nd, at 22 N 59'. This is 10 days after the children were taken.
This testimony, along with other signs of reunion (note the antiscion of Venus immediately applying to a sextile of 5th cusp, Regio') gives me confidence to suggest she will be reunited with her children within the next 2 weeks. I was wondering though, if anyone here might be able to shed further light on this distressing and urgent question, so that I may pass it on to my friend? In case you're wondering, she has reported the matter to the police, who have issued a warrant for the husband's arrest, on the grounds of "interference with custody", which - unless he contacts my friend again within 24 hours - will be upgraded to "kidnapping".
She has hired a lawyer also.

Many thanks for your indulgence. I hope that together we can continue to re-assure this very worried mother!
==

Pete
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2
Pete, I generally find that when the moon is void-of-course, as it is here in 29 Sag, and the question is about something calamitous, that the answer often is "there is nothing to worry about."

I hope that holds true for this chart as well, especially considering the other aspects that indicate that she will see her children soon.

Please let us know as soon as possible how this turns out.

3
I have to say that I am struggling to find the positives in this chart. I've seen it said several times that when the Moon is VOC there is nothing to worry about but I don't agree with this. By Lilly's definition the Moon is VOC. He mentions that when the Moon is VOC in a chart then business seldom goes handsomely forward, or words to that effect. Lilly doesn't always adhere to his own definition of VOC in his interpretations but I feel that it is important to acknowledge it.
The Moon is in the 8th house and about to go into Capricorn, the sign of its detriment. It is also about to oppose the Sun, significator of the children, as Pete pointed out. There is no reception between the Moon and the Sun to make this opposition easier.

Her significator, Venus, is in the 4th house. In fact all the significators in this chart are in unfortunate houses. Venus is applying to a conjunction of Saturn. Not sure if Saturn signifies the lawyer she has contacted or other authorities perhaps. Saturn is in its detriment and so may not be as much help as hoped. Normally, Mercury would conjunct Venus first and then go on to conjunct Saturn but this will not happen in this case as Venus is travelling faster than usual and will conjunct Saturn before Mercury conjuncts either Venus or Saturn.

Mars, the significator of the husband, is in the 12th house as we might expect him to be. He is in his own rulership and is the strongest planet in the chart. The Sun (the children) is the weakest. Unfortunately it is the children who are completely powerless in this situation. They seem a bit too old to be taken completely against their will though. I wonder what they have been told by their father and how much of the situation they really understand. The Sun is in an applying square to Mars so they are probably not too happy with him. But Mars is also in the exaltation of the Sun. It is interesting that the significator of the children is squaring the significator of the father and opposes the co-significator of the mother (if the Moon is indeed signifying the mother). I'm wondering what Jupiter, ruler of the 8th and 12th and opposing his significator, is indicating.

I have never looked at parallels or antiscion in relation to horary so I really don't know what to make of it but I believe that if these are used at all they should be used as supporting factors and not answers to the question. Unfortunately, I feel this woman has quite a struggle ahead of her. It's a horrible situation and I hope it results in what is the absolute best and safest for the children.

4
Hi Pete,

I've placed the chart for this question in your first post above.

This chart does seem to have a lot of negative associations, but bear in mind that it is partly reflecting the querent's horrific discovery and the trauma she is experiencing as a result of that. The Moon's opposition to the Sun is very telling, and like you I wouldn't dismiss it or tie it into the normal 'nothing happening' interpretation we expect when the Moon is devoid of aspect.

Moon applying to the opposition of the Sun is a classic signature of divorce - the mother and father polarised - and the fact that the opposition applies across the 2nd and 8th house axis demonstrates that assets and shared resources are taking the focus of their confrontation with each other. The Sun as the 5th house ruler located in the 2nd also suggests that the children are being used as pawns to demonstrates this point - that they were taken as a means to strip the mother of the things she has aquired to define her life, rather than through the father's genuine concern about having his children near to him so he can protect them and care for them. The sign boundary that intercepts the perfection of the opposition shows some barrier between them - I see this as the fact that the mother cannot contact the father directly and there is no easy access between them. This impedes the ability of the mother and father to deal directly with each other in the confrontation they are involved in.

This also makes sense of Mars's applying opposition to Jupiter, ruler of the 8th. With Jupiter in the husband's 12th, he may be hiding some assets or some financial investments from the querent, even above the financial investment papers she is aware of.

The chart is very descriptive of a great deal of anger and resentment on the part of the father. His significator in the 12th shows him in hiding from the querent, but Mars is in its own sign so he is probably hanging out somewhere that feels very familiar to him, or where he feels at home or in control. The north node is also conjunct the part of the grandparents - I didn't look for that, but it came up on my chart sheet; perhaps it has significance? Although Mars is strong by sign it is not as strong as Venus when all of the essential and accidental dignities are considered. I also see Venus applying to Saturn as the mother aligning herself with the police, and the Sun's applying square to Mars as the authorities moving in to take control over this.

I don't use parallels much in horary either, but I know that you do and trust your ability to take appropriate interpretation from them. One date you might want to check is 28th June - on that day the Moon will conjoin Mars, bringing action centred upon the father, and at the same time Venus and Merury (which are within minutes of conjunction) enter a new sign where they are fully united - new circumstances for the mother and children ? Also on that day the Sun will perfect the square to the position of Mars in this chart, so I think we might expect some important developments on that day.

Such a nasty situation. Most of the planets are moving quickly so let's hope it gets resolved quickly.

Deb

5
Pete, I generally find that when the moon is void-of-course, as it is here in 29 Sag, and the question is about something calamitous, that the answer often is "there is nothing to worry about."
Yes, that's what I was thinking also, but technically speaking I don't see the Moon as VOC, as it is within one degree of an opposition to the Sun even though it must change signs to perfect the aspect. In Capricorn the Moon will be in detriment, suggesting that my friend will have to be "away from home ground" and at a disadvantage, in order to reunite with her children (Sun). She will however be in her own triplicity, indicating at least *some* strength to act.
I hope that holds true for this chart as well, especially considering the other aspects that indicate that she will see her children soon.
I share that hope, thank you.
Please let us know as soon as possible how this turns out.
Of course, I'll keep the forum informed.
Thanks for your help Voyagergirl, I'll pass this on to my friend...
==
Pete

6
I?m not exactly Mr. Horary (I'm still a natal kind of guy), but I have read in several places that Lilly didn?t think of the Moon as void of course in the rulership and exaltation signs of the Moon and Jupiter: Cancer, Taurus, Sagittarius and Pisces. I?ve read that those can actually be quite good times. Is this a good occasion to bring that up?

7
By Lilly's definition the Moon is VOC. He mentions that when the Moon is VOC in a chart then business seldom goes handsomely forward, or words to that effect. Lilly doesn't always adhere to his own definition of VOC in his interpretations but I feel that it is important to acknowledge it.


Hello Sue,
indeed yes, I think it's important to note that the Moon is about to change signs and won't oppose the Sun until she does so, but I'm still of the view that the Moon is within the moeity of an opposition to the Sun, and from that perspective she is not in an aspect vacuum, which is how I define VOC. I'm also bearing in mind Lilly's advice in aphorism 9 on page 299 of C.A., where he says:
"..if [the Moon] be void of course then there's no great hopes of the question propounded, that it shall be effected; yet if she be in Cancer, Taurus, Sag' or Pisces your fear may be the less, for then she is not much impedited by being void of course."
The Moon is in the 8th house and about to go into Capricorn, the sign of its detriment. It is also about to oppose the Sun, significator of the children, as Pete pointed out. There is no reception between the Moon and the Sun to make this opposition easier.
I agree, this is going to be difficult for her...
Her significator, Venus, is in the 4th house. In fact all the significators in this chart are in unfortunate houses.
I'm not sure I see the 4th house as "unfortunate" in this case. My friend was at home at the time she asked the question and her primary concern was to bring a resolution to the matter and the children back to the nest. I think this is reflected perfectly by her sig in the 4th house.
Venus is applying to a conjunction of Saturn. Not sure if Saturn signifies the lawyer she has contacted or other authorities perhaps. Saturn is in its detriment and so may not be as much help as hoped.
I have reflected on this and I believe that Saturn may equally represent the end of the matter for the husband, since it rules the 10th house (4th from 7th). It also shows the end of the marriage and on both counts Saturn's poor dignity may be suggesting that things will not end well for him. If he is apprehended he could easily face a custodial sentence, depending on the severity of the charge against him.
Normally, Mercury would conjunct Venus first and then go on to conjunct Saturn but this will not happen in this case as Venus is travelling faster than usual and will conjunct Saturn before Mercury conjuncts either Venus or Saturn.
Agreed, but I note that before Venus reaches Saturn, Mercury reaches Venus, so the querent gets a "message". In fact last night she spoke to her husband, who is on the road with the children, but other than give his final destination (which sounds like he is heading for his brother's house), he refused to give his exact location. He also "allowed" the children to speak to her for 1 minute, and no more. They seem ok, although the son, when given instructions and advice from my friend, answered each time only with "uh-huh" - as if he didn't want the father to understand what he was being told to do.
Mars, the significator of the husband, is in the 12th house as we might expect him to be. He is in his own rulership and is the strongest planet in the chart.
And yet, and yet - I agree that Mars is strong in the sense that it has the greatest freedom to act and is dependent on no-one, but the husband is thinking only of himself. He exalts the children (Sun), but as I have noted often, exalting someone is not always a realistic appraisal of the reality. Also, his position in the 12th house shows his act of subterfuge against the querent. [ interestingly she is currently dealing with Solar Arc NE = MA/PL, which I think describes this situation perfectly].
They seem a bit too old to be taken completely against their will though. I wonder what they have been told by their father and how much of the situation they really understand.
When the querent spoke to him on his mobile phone last night he calmly told her he was taking them on a vacation, so that would seem to be the reason why they went without too much struggle. This of course seems like a blatant lie, given the circumstances. My client simply told him to return the children as there was a warrant out for his arrest and he should not dig himself any deeper into the hole he has created. It appears that he has ignored this request.
The Sun is in an applying square to Mars so they are probably not too happy with him.
It sounds like they are less than happy with this situation, especially since they spoke to their mother.
It is interesting that the significator of the children is squaring the significator of the father and opposes the co-significator of the mother (if the Moon is indeed signifying the mother). I'm wondering what Jupiter, ruler of the 8th and 12th and opposing his significator, is indicating.
His financial situation springs to mind, since it rules his 2nd. Jupiter also rules Judges (C.A. p63), while the Sun, which will square Mars, is the generic ruler of High Constables and Magistrates (C.A p71). Since the rule of law has already been invoked against the husband, I think we have to make note of these rulerships, particularly as Jupiter is in the husband's 12th house.
I have never looked at parallels or antiscion in relation to horary so I really don't know what to make of it but I believe that if these are used at all they should be used as supporting factors and not answers to the question.
Fair point, Sue. I've seen them work though, when there have been no ptolemaic aspects to bring perfection, so that's why I've underlined them in my notebook. All we can do is watch and see...
Unfortunately, I feel this woman has quite a struggle ahead of her. It's a horrible situation and I hope it results in what is the absolute best and safest for the children.
Amen twice to that sentiment! Thank you Sue, for your thoughts on this.
Much appreciated...
==
Pete

8
Kirk wrote:I?m not exactly Mr. Horary (I'm still a natal kind of guy), but I have read in several places that Lilly didn?t think of the Moon as void of course in the rulership and exaltation signs of the Moon and Jupiter: Cancer, Taurus, Sagittarius and Pisces. I?ve read that those can actually be quite good times. Is this a good occasion to bring that up?
Hi Kirk,
yeah, it might be a good occasion to raise the point. Please see my reply to Sue.
==
Pete

9
Hi Pete,

Just out of curiosity, when you use parallels do you see them as conjunctions? Do you then see ContraParallels as oppositions? And I presume you are talking about declination rather than lattitude.

I don't see Mercury conjuncting Venus until after Venus conjuncts Saturn. However, Deb's observation about Mercury and Venus coming to full conjunction when they change signs is an interesting one and I agree that it shows changed conditions, hopefully positive ones for your friend.

Cheers
Sue

10
Getting back to the original question for a moment, WHEN will she see them; Moon applies to oppose Sun in 1degree, 28minutes. Using the Moon for timing here and Sun and Moon in Succedent houses, Moon In Mutable, Sun in Cardinal are we talking 1.5 weeks or 1.5 Months?

11
Hi Pete,

Just out of curiosity, when you use parallels do you see them as conjunctions? Do you then see ContraParallels as oppositions? And I presume you are talking about declination rather than lattitude.
Yes, parallels of declination, and yes I see the parallel as having the effect of a conjunction while the ContraParallel acts like an opposition
I don't see Mercury conjuncting Venus until after Venus conjuncts Saturn.
You're absolutely right Sue. I've just checked Raphaels ephemeris and Mercury conjoins Saturn on the 26th and Venus on the 27th. An oversight on my part.
However, Deb's observation about Mercury and Venus coming to full conjunction when they change signs is an interesting one and I agree that it shows changed conditions, hopefully positive ones for your friend.
I'm hoping so, I really am. It is now looking as though she won't be able to be reunited with her children legally until July 2nd - which is the date that the Sun comes to parallel Venus. Apparently the husband's lawyer has convinced the judge that the husband is on holiday with the children and that he told my friend of these plans before he left!

Cheers Sue...
==
Pete

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pat557 wrote:Getting back to the original question for a moment, WHEN will she see them; Moon applies to oppose Sun in 1degree, 28minutes. Using the Moon for timing here and Sun and Moon in Succedent houses, Moon In Mutable, Sun in Cardinal are we talking 1.5 weeks or 1.5 Months?
It's beginning to look like 1.5 weeks Pat. See my latest response to Sue for an update on that.
==
Pete