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Will I Get a (successful) Transplant?

 
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 250
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:18 am    Post subject: Will I Get a (successful) Transplant? Reply with quote

The patient has just learned she is a candidate for a double transplant, heart and kidney. The question is twofold: 1) Will I get a transplant? and 2) What about the outcome?


IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/vi6q8.gif[/IMG

The Moon is Void of Course in Leo, with the next aspect a square to Saturn when the Moon enters Virgo.

(Whoops! Correction--the next aspect is a sextile to Mercury, not a square to Saturn)

Nine Aquarius rises. Saturn represents the client, Sun Lord of the Seventh represents the doctor, Mercury combust the Sun signifies the eighth house of death, Mars ruler of the tenth house signifies surgical treatment, Venus rules the fourth house bearing witness to death. Mars of surgery closely conjuncts Venus, Lady of the Fourth of outcome. Both are posited on the eighth house cusp, the place on the chart representing the death of the querent. The Moon has recently separated from a square to the Sun. The twelfth house, another witness of death, is ruled by the same planet representing the querent, Saturn.

In the astrology of decumbiture practiced by Richard Saunders, three aspects indicating death on a chart can be either applying or separating. Aspects of conjunction, square or opposition can bring about the querent's death. Here we have 1) Moon separating from a square to the Sun; 2)
Venus, Lady of the Fourth of the grave, conjunct Mars, indicating surgery; 3) Moon applying to a square of Saturn. Three signs of death are therefore present.

None of these markers look especially propitious for the transplant scenario. Anyone see any hopeful signs in this chart that I may have missed?
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Last edited by spirlhelix on Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:00 am; edited 1 time in total
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spirlhelix



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
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Location: Cincinnati, Ohio

Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 4:46 pm    Post subject: Chart Data Reply with quote

I have attempted to publish the chart on this thread without success, so here is the chart data:

Cincinnati, Ohio
Tuesday, Nov. 3, 2015
1:35 pm

Aquarius 9 rising.
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gs53



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Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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spirlhelix



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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:29 am    Post subject: Some Lighter Notes Reply with quote

Thanks, Goca! I've never had much success with that chart upload thing.

Further reflecting on the chart, the Venus-Mars conjunction on the cusp of the eighth is perfectly descriptive of the surgery itself. The patient literally dies in the process, being left to function without a heart for several minutes.

The Void of Course Moon is interesting. We know we are all heading toward death--it's inevitable. Looking at the three fatal aspects, the final one indicates the end. There is a good long stretch between thirteen Leo where the Moon is currently posited and four Virgo, the degree which indicates eventual death. Leo being a fixed sign is an indication that the patient will buy time with the surgery, which is all that can really be expected.

Thoughts, anyone?
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gs53



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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Some Lighter Notes Reply with quote

spirlhelix wrote:
I've never had much success with that chart upload thing.


You put: IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/vi6q8.gif[/IMG

Only you had to do is to put [IMG] instead of IMG] and after the link of the pic you had to put [/IMG] instead of [/IMG
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spirlhelix



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Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Goca!

Have any thoughts about the chart? I'm not sure whether I'm being objective. I'm the querent, the patient who is being considered for a double transplant.

Any ideas for me?
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gs53



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Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The Moon is Void of Course in Leo, with the next aspect a square to Saturn when the Moon enters Virgo.

Because Moon is VOC I think answer is No. That aspect that you mentioned is out of orb so do not count.
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spirlhelix



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Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:08 pm    Post subject: Void of Course Exceptions, Lilly's When Will I Die? Reply with quote

Thanks for giving me an opinion, Goca. Not many folks like to comment on end-of-life matters, so that was courageous of you.

I seem to recall some example(s) Lilly worked which allowed the VOC Moon to act if she was within orb of an aspect when she entered the following sign. Perhaps I recall incorrectly.

The second part of the question is implied, "How long will I live?, or "When will I die?" Perhaps studying Lilly's eighth house charts can help us here.

It's a given that the querent (meaning me) will die (at least temporarily) if or when she has a transplant. But the querent needs to know how the transplant will affect her health, or to state it another way, how long she will survive the surgery. That makes interpreting the chart tricky.

Sorry to sound so cold about my condition, but I really don't know how else to get an objective answer, if not from the stars! With a heart as bad as mine, doctors won't even venture to guess how long I will live--so I have nothing to compare with when considering whether to pursue the transplant.


From Christian Astrology, p. 408:

"Of the death of the Querent, or space of his owne life.

If one is fearful of death, or feels himselfe ill, or would be resolved, Whether, according to naturall causes, he may live a yeer, two, three or more, the better to dispose of some matters concerning his owne private affaires, and shall demand such a Question of you, give the ascendant, his Lord and the Moon for his Significators, and see in what houses they are in, and how dignified essentially, unto whom they apply, or with what Planets associated: if the Lord of the 1st be joyned with any of the Fortunes, and commit his vertue unto him, and that Planet is well dignified and commit his disposition to no Planet, then see if that Fortune be Lord of the 8th; for if he be not, then assuredly the Querent out-lives the year, or two or three, or time by him propounded; but if the Planet to whom the Lord of the ascendant is in Conjunction with, or commits his disposition unto, be Lord of the 8th, then whether he be a good or an ill Planet, he kils (for every Planet must doe his office,) and signifies, that the Querent shall dye within the compasse of time demanded; and this judgment you may averre with more constancy, if the Moon be then impedited, unlesse some other Planet be joyned with the Lord of the ascendant, who receives either him or the Moon, for then he shall not dye in that space of time enquired of by him.

Consider if the Lord of the ascendant be joyned to an Infortune, who receives him not either by House or Exaltation, or by two of his lesser Dignities, and the Moon also at that time unfortunate, it signifies the Querent’s death.

If in like manner you find the Lord of the 1st joyned to the Lord of the 8th, unlesse the Lord of the 8th receive him, and so notwithstanding, as that the Lord of the 1st receive not the Lord of the 8th, though he receive the Lord of the 1st; because if the Lord of the 8th receive the Lord of the 1st, and the Lord of the 1st the Lord of the 8th, whether Fortune or Infortune, you may justly feare the Querent’s death; but if the Lord of the 8th receive the Lord of the ascendant, so there be not mutuall Reception, it hinders not.

Having considered judiciously that the Querent shall not dye, behold when or in what time it wil be are the Lord of the ascendant is joyned to that Planet who receiveth him with a compleat Conjunction, untill that time and year or years signified by that Conjunction, the Querent shall be secure, and so may ascertaine himselfe, that at this time he shall not dye. But if you find just grounds in Art the Querent shal dye, behold when and at what time the Lord of the 1st is joyned to the Lord of the 8th, or to the abovesaid Infortune, who receives him not, but afflicts him, and is the interficient Planet; for when their perfect Conjunction is, whether by body or aspect, at that time he is like to dye.

But if the Lord of the 1st is so disposed, or he is such a condition, as you conceive that by him alone, without other testimonies, you cannot sufficiently judge of his death or life, then doe you consider the Moon, and judge by her position, as you did of the Lord of the 1st: but as I related before, if the Lord of the 8th and the Lord of the 1st be joyned together and each receive other, or at leastwise, the Lord of the 1st receive the Lord of the 8th, it prenotes his death, as aforesaid: when the interficient Planet comes to the degrees wherein the two Significators were in Conjunction, or if they were in Square or Opposition aspect, then when the malevolent Intersector comes to the degree of the Zodiack wherein the Lord of the ascendant was at time of the Question; or when the unfortunate Anareta, transits the degree ascending, and there meets with the malevolent aspect of the Lord of the 6th, or when an Eclipse, or its opposite place fals to be either the degree ascending or the degree of the Signe wherein the Lord of the ascendant was, or of the Moon, if you judged by her, and not by the Lord of the ascendant.
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gs53



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Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did not think that your 2nd question mean "When will I die?" but if you think so I can tell you not so soon, because Moon is VOC (notnig new will happen) and because your ruler Saturn has no applying aspect with P/DEATH-trad. or its ruler, and because also do not have applying aspect with Mercury ruler of the 8 house.
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spirlhelix



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Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 12:26 pm    Post subject: Void of Course Moon. . . Doubts Reply with quote

Hi, Goca!

Again, a brave reply. I don't, however, have as much confidence in my immortality based on a Void of Course Moon as you do.

Let's not fool ourselves: death is inevitable for everyone, it's simply a matter of when. This is a viable question for horary exploration, and particularly pertinent to the success of a kidney/heart transplant procedure.

Here's the tradition that makes me question this Moon's Void of Course status:

Sun and Moon perfected a square at (rounding off) degree ten and a half.
When the question was asked, the square was separating; it had not completed. Adding the moiety of the Sun, 8.5 degrees, to 10.5 gives us 19 degrees. To become Void, the Moon with her orb of 12 and a half degrees needs to completely pass degree 19 without contacting the moiety of another planet in her next sign. Her 12 and a half -degree orb plus degree 19 brings her to degree 31 and a half, or Virgo 1 and a half. At Virgo 1 and a half, the orb of the Moon has already overlapped the moiety of Saturn, at Virgo one. This is calculated as 5 degrees subtracted from Saturn's degree of four Virgo, applying to a square, swiftly followed by contact with the moiety of Mercury applying to a sextile.

I have seen an otherwise VOC Moon act on more than one chart, although with difficulty and mixed results. In my opinion, the non-VOC status of this Moon makes both transplant and the final event of death (Moon Square Saturn) possible.

Yes, this Moon describes an event so difficult and delayed that it seems nearly miraculous to contemplate its success. That's a pretty good description of a double transplant, if you ask me. It then becomes a question of the degree of success of the procedure, measured by the time the transplant can buy the patient.

The indications of death you have used here seem too limited to be useful in this chart. As I mentioned, I know I'm not immortal. I hope to go into the matter of death on the horary chart further when time premits.
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spirlhelix



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Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:43 pm    Post subject: Recovery in the Chart Reply with quote

This is a difficult chart, and question, to approach using traditional techniques. The decumbiture instructions of Richard Saunders are the ones I tend to use because they offer a significant amount of detail. Saunders first analyzes every chart for mortality, so he will know whether to orient the querent toward treatment, or advise him to put his affairs in order.

It's taken me a while to orient to the exceptional nature of this chart, but
in this instance, there is almost no point in asking whether the querent will die. The querent will die, either with or without the transplant. Death may either describe the transplant procedure--yes, the stars can be that literal--or the eventual outcome if the querent does not have the transplant.

So, since death is a foregone conclusion, I have decided to look to Saunders' second line of questioning: "Are there signs the patient will recover?"

I'm assuming in this reading that the Moon Void of Course is simply descriptive of long drawn-out course of action, fraught with difficulties and delays. The Moon in a new sign, Virgo, is interpreted to describe post- transplant conditions, expected to be much different in nature than pre-transplant conditions. I'll be examining the chart in this light and posting presently.
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spirlhelix



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Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:46 pm    Post subject: Signs of Recovery per Richard Saunders Reply with quote

Richard Saunders lists sixteen signs of recovery on pages 65-67 of Astrological Judgment and Practice, etc.

This topic is more succinct than his section on "Life and Death," pp. 39-64, which would be exhaustive to reproduce here. I'm writing up the "Signs of Recovery" section here for those who don't have the book. I'm breaking them down four at a time, then comparing them with the chart in question:

1.) Jupiter, Venus, Sun and Moon in the ascendant, not beholding the Lords of the eighth or sixth houses, free from the affliction of the Malevolents, and in good Signs, good signs of recovery.

2). The conjunction of Moon with Jupiter is fortunate; especially if it fall in Cancer, where either of them have Dignities; but it hath the least of goods if it fall in Capricorn, because there they are both debilitated.

3). The Moon free of the Lords of the sixth and eighth houses, applying to the Lord of the Ascendant, salutem significat.

4). The Moon in an angle well-affected, or in a succedant, increasing in Light and Motion, and free from Saturn and Mars, salutem judicat.
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spirlhelix



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Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:26 pm    Post subject: Signs of Recovery in the Transplant Chart Reply with quote

1.) Jupiter, Venus, Sun and Moon in the ascendant, not beholding the Lords of the eighth or sixth houses, free from the affliction of the Malevolents, and in good Signs, good signs of recovery.

In the chart in question, Sun, Moon, Jupiter and Venus appear in the seventh house, not the first. The benefics favor the physician, which is not a bad thing, but not directly indicative of the patient's well-being or survival. Mars is also in the seventh, the indicator of the surgeon's treatment, cusping in a close conjunction with Venus on the eighth.

2). The conjunction of Moon with Jupiter is fortunate; especially if it fall in Cancer, where either of them have Dignities; but it hath the least of goods if it fall in Capricorn, because there they are both debilitated.

In the sign of Virgo, Moon conjuncts Jupiter. Virgo is not the greatest sign for Jupiter, but Virgo is not as bad for the Moon as Capricorn is. Not hopeless, in other words.

3). The Moon free of the Lords of the sixth and eighth houses, applying to the Lord of the Ascendant, salutem significat.

These conditions are not met in this chart, but Saunders stipulates that it only requires one of these sixteen conditions be met to indicate recovery. All sixteen need not be present.

4). The Moon in an angle well-affected, or in a succedant, increasing in Light and Motion, and free from Saturn and Mars, salutem judicat.

This Moon, although angular, is waning, not waxing. As in #3, all sixteen signs need not be present for recovery.
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felipeastrologo



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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The transplants are aptly signified by Mars, the ruler of the 10th house and natural ruler of surgery. Mars is dignified by term but is weak accidentally in house 8. Mars is in no dignity of Saturn. I'd say the transplants will not produce any significantly positive result.

Venus, the ruler of the 4th house of "the outcome" is equally debilitated both accidentally and essentially. Again: not favorable.

I would also bring in Jupiter as the significator of his illness (as per Lilly, John Frawley and Oscar Hofman). Mars has no power over Jupiter; in fact it will make it worse by being in its detriment.

We have three significant testimonies for an undesirable outcome.

The Moon is not void of course as it it going to oppose the Sun's antiscion next (and then Mercury before leaving its sign). So there will be some meaningful encounter between those planets. Being an oppositions possibly indicates a parting of ways of some kind or an unpleasant encounter. Notice that while the Moon is in house 7, that is: she is emotionally under the Surgeon's power, The Sun is in the Moon's fall; so whatever the surgeon does will disappoint or upset her emotionally, possibly confirming what the opposition indicates.
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jventura



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Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

spirlhelix wrote:
I have attempted to publish the chart on this thread without success, so here is the chart data:

Cincinnati, Ohio
Tuesday, Nov. 3, 2015
1:35 pm

Aquarius 9 rising.


Slightly offtopic, but you can use my Charts app links to publish charts here on skyscript: http://apps.flatangle.com/Charts

Just create the chart and copy-paste the link here. The most useful thing about it is that anyone can use their own settings, such as house system, chart style, etc.. Of course, you can also export the image and paste it here.

For instance, here's the link for the chart: http://apps.flatangle.com/Charts/app/app.html?title=Successful%20transplant?&jd=2457330.2743055555&utc=-5&lat=39.166666666666664&lon=-84.45


Regards,
Joćo Ventura
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