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What do the Moon's Nodes mean?
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 839

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:
Tom wrote:
Quote:
If anyone is seriously interested in Tyl on the nodes, I think I can locate a volume that will give us that information. It will take some digging on my part, so if there is no interest beyond idle curiosity, let it drop


Hi Tom,

Its not exactly just idle intellectual curiosity for me. I am planning to give a talk on this subject and hoping to get to the root of the modern interpretations of the nodes.

I have plenty of material for ancient, medieval and Indian astrology but I am much less clear about how some of the modern ideas Fleur cites originated.

So if you have the time I would appreciate a pointer to where to look for more on this.

Thanks

Mark


I would be very interested in this too. I might not be able to do much with it, but as Mark is giving a talk on the Moon's Nodes, that might be worth your while.
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ea



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 55

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:

Its not exactly just idle intellectual curiosity for me. I am planning to give a talk on this subject and hoping to get to the root of the modern interpretations of the nodes.

I have plenty of material for ancient, medieval and Indian astrology but I am much less clear about how some of the modern ideas Fleur cites originated.

So if you have the time I would appreciate a pointer to where to look for more on this.

Thanks

Mark


Hi Mark,

While looking for something else I bumped into a copy of "Geocosmic Journal" Winter 2009, which is devoted to the Lunar Nodes. Maybe this could be of use to you? You can check the contest here:

http://geocosmic.org/journal/J-2009WIN.pdf

ea
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mark, what I found follows below. For the record I have a fairly extensive library modern and traditional. I have no problem looking for things that will help others. But we have to understand I have these books mixed with others, all over the house, garage, attic and basement. It's not that I mind helping out, but to dig through a lot of stuff, put it all back neatly (I'm married) then write it up just to satisfy someone's idle curiosity, is more than I'm willing to do.

You're giving a lecture, so I'm happy to help. I'd love to be able to get to Scotland some day and listen to a lecture of yours not only to enjoy the astrology but to enjoy some fine Scottish ale and whisky. I can dream.

A little background is necessary to understand Tyl's position. Tyl is a full blown psychological astrologer and he sees almost everything in the chart through that lens. The nodes are no exception. His main thrust is what he calls "Needs Psychology." That is the native is motivated by and the chart shows his psychological needs and in some cases, like the nodes, the source of those needs.

In his book Synthesis & Counseling in Astrology (my copy is 1994) he spends about a dozen pages on the nodes with example charts. I'll give a synopsis as best I understand it. Also he is drawing on, and credits, the work of an astrologer named Dennis Flaherty, about whom I know nothing.

As would most moderns he dismisses the malefic/benefic delineations of the nodes. He writes:


Quote:
I see the Lunar Nodal axis as lunar symbolism in relation to the Sun (emphasis in the original) I see the process of the feminine meeting the masculine taking in the Sun's light and transmitting it further, ingesting the seed and putting forth the fruit. I see maternal influence (emphasis in the original). I see the potential for a knot of complication through the mother, or, indeed, an amalgamation of strengths through the maternal influence.


Then he posts Prince Charles' chart without identifying it and after some discussion of some aspects in that chart, he writes regarding the nodes in that chart:

Quote:
"The Moon conjunct the north node, according to Flaherty, suggests " a restlessness of the mind as it yearns for greater satisfaction
(emphasis in the original).

Additionally, I see it as a knot of maternal influence. A tremendous dominant influence by the mother, echoed by the condition of the 4th house and its ruler. The mother is keeping this man in a world unto himself. He cannot do his thing.


The expression "knot of maternal influence" is the one he uses most often to express the nodes' influence in the life.

In a second chart (female) that he says is from a private client, the north node is conjunct the MC. After some discussion of other factors in the chart he notes;


Quote:
Her needs to think, socialize, and work to fulfill her own needs were usurped, taken over by the mother to fulfill hers.


So appropriately placed nodes denote a domineering mother. He gives a third example where the nodes aren't conjunct anything and I can't find a single mention of the nodes in an otherwise detailed delineation. He does go on about the Moon in the chart and how this plus his domineering mother influenced his life. The Moon is in the same house (8th) as the north node), but the NN is in a different sign. He does give a further analysis of this chart elsewhere in the book (private client) and I didn't read that. I'm not sure why it's in the chapter on the nodes, unless being in the same house as the Moon is sufficient to trigger this phenomenon.

The last example I'm going to mention is also a private client and he notes the nodal axis squares the MC (North node in the 1st). In this case the female native is the domineering one. This is apparently the result, among other things, of the nodes squaring the parental axis (MC/IC).

So in brief the nodes show "the knot of maternal influence," and by knot I think he means the domineering mother. However we all have the nodes in our charts and we all don't have domineering mothers, so I think he is driving at the idea that when the nodes are somehow in contact with the appropriate planets or points is when this phenomenon exists. A more detailed study of his work would explain that.

I haven't worked with this stuff in about 20 years, so I'm kind of flailing since I can't be 100% certain that he is saying exactly this. But I think so. If someone else can be more explicit or even corrective, please feel free.
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Fleur



Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 839

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ea wrote:
Mark wrote:

Its not exactly just idle intellectual curiosity for me. I am planning to give a talk on this subject and hoping to get to the root of the modern interpretations of the nodes.

I have plenty of material for ancient, medieval and Indian astrology but I am much less clear about how some of the modern ideas Fleur cites originated.

So if you have the time I would appreciate a pointer to where to look for more on this.

Thanks

Mark


Hi Mark,

While looking for something else I bumped into a copy of "Geocosmic Journal" Winter 2009, which is devoted to the Lunar Nodes. Maybe this could be of use to you? You can check the contest here:

http://geocosmic.org/journal/J-2009WIN.pdf

ea


That index page of the Geocosmic Journal looked fascinating. Pity we can't read those articles about the Moon's Nodes.
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Mark
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Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 5103
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ea wrote:
Quote:
Hi Mark,

While looking for something else I bumped into a copy of "Geocosmic Journal" Winter 2009, which is devoted to the Lunar Nodes. Maybe this could be of use to you? You can check the contest here:

http://geocosmic.org/journal/J-2009WIN.pdf

ea


Thanks. That looks a fascinating issue. Do you (or any other members) know if back issues of the NCGR Journal are available online?

Thanks

Mark
_________________
‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Quote:
In his book Synthesis & Counseling in Astrology (my copy is 1994) he spends about a dozen pages on the nodes with example charts. I'll give a synopsis as best I understand it.


Thanks very much for doing that Tom. At least Tyl is making comments about something fairly tangible in a nativity that can be checked out in charts.

Our Association Library was clearing out a duplicate of this book recently but I passed the chance to take the book. I rather regret that now. I guess I will need to pick up the book to see what he says in detail. As I recall though its another one of his 1000 page door stopper volumes!

Mark
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ea



Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 55

Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:


Thanks. That looks a fascinating issue. Do you (or any other members) know if back issues of the NCGR Journal are available online?

Thanks

Mark



Ah, sorry, I should have given the link to that too. Here it is:

http://geocosmic.org/mm5/merchant.mvc?

ea
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ea wrote:
Quote:
Ah, sorry, I should have given the link to that too. Here it is:

http://geocosmic.org/mm5/merchant.mvc?

ea


Thanks a lot ea. Thumbs up

Not just for that link but access to all the other articles there one can purchase.

Very interesting indeed!

Mark
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Tom
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Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah it's quite the tome over 800 pages. Tyl was an opera singer at one point in his life and he tends to be a bit dramatic in style. The nodes in my chart are exactly square Saturn. I wonder what he would make of that?
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3677
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark,

thanks for correcting me on the passing comment on noel tyls huge solar arc theory book.. i don't have it anymore and was going on memory, but i think you are correct regarding the selective acknowledgement historical sources. i also have the gargantuan book that tom mentions which i got cheap. i also have the 1994 edition which i was sure he would say something relevant in over the course of 873 pages, however i feel asleep trying to slog thru it, lol.. not the first time!

looking at it now, the nodal axis section runs from page 49 to 64..
he gives a brief historical account and makes this comment on the top of page 50."I see the Lunar Nodal axis as lunar symbolism in relation to the Sun. I see the process of the feminine meeting the masculine, taking in the Sun's light and transmitting it further, ingesting the seed and putting forth the fruit. I see maternal influence. I see the potential for a knot of complication through the mother, or, indeed, an amalgamation of strengths through maternal influence."

he then goes on to work thru many examples with not only aspects central, but also placidus house positions central to the interpretations.

i will see if i can find some time to read over the section and get back with any additional comments for others here. maybe tom can too? i have a busy week ahead.
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
he then goes on to work thru many examples with not only aspects central, but also placidus house positions central to the interpretations.


Hi James,

That seems perfectly fair enough to me if that is his chosen house system. Perhaps I should have mentioned Judith Hill works with equal houses and delineates accordingly. That was a plus for me ( I check charts with whole sign and equal) but it may detract from the utility of the book somewhat for those that prefer quadrant houses.

James-M wrote:
Quote:
i will see if i can find some time to read over the section and get back with any additional comments for others here.


Thanks. Personally I intend to buy the book. But I am sure other members might find this interesting. I am beginning to recognise that modern literature on the nodes is far vaster than I had previously appreciated. Still most of it can be broken down into a few approaches as Fleur suggested at the start of the thread.

It seems this focus on the nodes and maternal issues is a kind of counterpoint to Tyl's emphasis on Saturn retrograde for paternal issues.

Mark
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‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly


Last edited by Mark on Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tom
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Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I am beginning to recognise that modern literature on the nodes is far vaster than I had previously appreciated.


Yes, modern astrologers have more delineations for the nodes than you can shake a stick at. Tyl just likes Dennis Flahrety's approach and Flahrety just made it up. Maternal influence is psychologically important, so it has to be in the chart somewhere. The nodes are in the chart, so let's use them.

Traditionalists are only slightly better. They are a bit more consistent, but hardly detailed in their explanations. North node/good; south node/bad isn't exactly the most profound of observations.


Quote:
It seems this focus on the nodes and maternal issues is a kind of counterpoint to Tyl's emphasis on Saturn retrograde for paternal issues.


This I do recall. Tyl believes that Saturn Rx indicates that the native's father was either absent physically, absent emotionally, or tyrannical thus instilling feelings of inferiority in the native. The only exception is Saturn in Capricorn. Most psychologists heavily emphasize the maternal influence and probably for very good reason. Tyl is about the only astrologer who gives the father equal time.

Tyl and other modern psychological astrologers spend a lot of time on the negatives in the chart that result in human development. I don't know that I've ever heard an astrologer, or a psychologist for that matter, tell someone, "Oh you had such wonderful parents. That's why you are the magnificent person you are today." Maybe those people don't go to psychologists or astrologers.

Tyl doesn't use the so-called soft aspects all that much preferring to emphasize hard aspects since it is, in his opinion, difficulties that most shape human personality. And his main emphasis is on hard aspects to Saturn and the three outer planets. Those aspects can come from any other planet but squares between outers carry on for so long that it is difficult to see how they would influence so many people the same way. So the other planets from Jupiter in, that form hard aspects to Saturn and the three outers, are key in his system.
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think tom has it right about tyl leaning on the use of hard aspects more... but i think that comes out of his influence from ebertin, although it isn't acknowledged. and i do agree with tom about tyls approach to saturn retro as some type of quick way to define a persons relationship to their father as either being okay or not.. retro - not.. the fact is the nodes have to do with the moon, so an association with the mother and the nodes isn't any stretch to make, thus a psychological tie in with the mother and the nodes is an obvious association to make.

and tom is correct that tyl leans heavily on dennis flahertys work on the nodes. now whether that is to promote another book from the same publisher that tyl is always coincidentally promoting books for or not, i don't know.. if i wasn't so cynical i would say he gets a financial kick back for every Llewellyn Publication book that sells.. maybe he is a part owner of the company..
dennis flahertys book is called "mythic measurements of the moon's nodes:why the dragons are everywhere."

now i am sure i have said a few things to offend any uncritically devoted fans of tyl, but i think his saturn retro theory is a bunch of hocus pocus bs. i said that on his forum a number of years ago too which didn't go over too well, lol..
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Mark
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Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:
Quote:
i think tom has it right about tyl leaning on the use of hard aspects more... but i think that comes out of his influence from ebertin, although it isn't acknowledged.


Tyl certainly acknowledged his debt to Ebertin in the workshops I attended over a decade ago. His approach to solar arcs only includes conjunction and hard aspects. He makes extensive use of midpoints too. He recommends people read Ebertin's book ie The Combination of Stellar Influences. So I dont think this is something Tyl fails to acknowledge. Other astrologers he refers to as influential are Dane Rudhyar, Marc Edmund Jones and Grant Lewi.

Mark
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Deb
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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
now i am sure i have said a few things to offend any uncritically devoted fans of tyl, but i think his saturn retro theory is a bunch of hocus pocus bs. i said that on his forum a number of years ago too which didn't go over too well, lol..

Hardly surprising. If you didn't value his work, you could have a) just left, or b) offered an intelligent critique that avoided being as insulting and dismissive as possible. Are you aware that you are coming across as the partner and opposite of the "uncritically devoted fan" - the uncritically devoted detractor?

You've made your own views sufficiently clear, so now please stop spotlighting the attention on Tyl. A lot of the personal criticisms you have made don't appear to be well substantiated, and this inevitably takes focus away from the astrological ideas and principles being asked about.
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