House-Buying Question

1
Hello:

It?s been a while since I have posted anything, but I have a horary that?s driving me crazy, and I would appreciate some input. It?s a ?will I buy this house?? question.

Some Background

Two years ago, I got a full-time job that requires me to live in a different city several hundred miles away from my life partner for most of the year. I spend summers and vacations with my partner. I have been renting a house in my work location, but I am tired of the rental and would like something a little more upscale. I began looking at houses in June. There was a beautiful house that came on the market, but it quickly received an offer from another buyer and went under contract. Nevertheless, I cast a chart asking if I would end up buying the property. When I first put up the chart, I thought the initial offer would fall through because of the condition of the ninth house (seller?s contracts). L9-Mercury is retrograde and combust. That offer did fall through about three weeks later and the house went back on the market.

Since then, I have been talking with an agent about the possibility of buying it. I also got preapproved for a mortgage on it, but I have not yet made an official offer. I could use my own resources to buy the house, but my mortgage payment would a bit high. My partner may want to help me with a down payment gift, but he remains hesitant. We?ve had numerous conversations about the possibility of buying this house. My partner keeps coming up with reasons for me not to proceed?but then he continues to bring up the idea of helping me buy it. I am getting sick of these conversations.

I have three possible courses of action: (1) make an offer using my own resources; (2) wait until my partner feels comfortable giving me the down payment gift and then make an offer; (3) forget about the whole thing and continue renting.

Does the chart show that I will end up buying the property? There are some positives. My sig, Venus, is dignified by domicile. The horary moon in is mutual reception with both Venus and Jupiter, showing the possibility of aid in the resolution of the matter. Mars, almuten of the fourth house, is conjunct the ascendant. The horary moon translates L4-Saturn to L1-Venus.
On the other hand, the house is represented by co-almutens Mars and Saturn, both malefics. This suggests to me that the house may have problems and be a source of aggravation to me. Also, the moon?s final aspect is a square to Mercury Rx, which shows that negotiations won?t work out despite lots of effort and stress. What do others think?

June 17, 2014
Jacksonville, FL USA
2:46:10pm EDT
30?N19'55''
081?W39'21''

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Allow yourself to be molded by your own talents.

My pronouns are she, her, hers

2
there is a lot I would want to call attention to in this chart.

your significator is in domicile (Taurus), but out of sect and in the 8th house. you're putting yourself in a situation you wouldn't typically put yourself into (sect consideration) that's causing a tremendous amount of concern and worry (8th house).

Mars is in detriment on the Ascendant. you're rushing things, pushing forward for a solution too quickly and missing important details. malefics on angles nearly guarantee that you're going to find yourself in a situation fraught with difficulties and, in the case of this chart (where Uranus is on the descendant), arguments and quarrels with your partner.

home is signified by Saturn in Scorpio in your second house, retrograde, with Pluto right on the IC. I have tremendous concerns about the integrity of this home. Saturn retrograde in your second shows this property to be a literal drain on your resources, a money pit, as structural problem after problem come to light. with Pluto there's likely an issue with plumbing/sewage, coupled with Saturn as its significator in Scorpio.

I don't see Venus coming to Saturn (they've recently separated via opposition, with Saturn in Venus's detriment). no planet is translating light, and no planet is collecting. Venus is applying to Jupiter, ruler of 3rd and 6th.. you'd have to put that in context for me, potentially you attempting to draw up contracts of some kind. Moon is not applying to anyone presently, which makes me wonder if the impetus to get this new home will just fall out and the matter will close itself with no real change or update.

if this chart came to me, I'd say it doesn't look the client would be getting the house, and thank god. what a mess that place appears to be.
Last edited by Wade on Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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3
Hi, WCA.

Thanks for your input. The moon moves from a trine with Saturn to a sextile with Venus, so there is a planet linking Saturn and Venus. But I certainly appreciate that someone might read that differently. I realize that these two are separating, but I took that as a description of the fact that the house was actually under contract when I asked the question. Now it is not under contract. It is my understanding that the previous buyers could not secure financing. The first contract did not fail because of anything known to be wrong with the house.

As I mentioned in my original post, I also have concerns about Mars and Saturn in the chart. Certainly, Saturn in the second has got me wondering. The house is made of stone, so Saturn as sig is not inappropriate. I have wondered if the second house position indicates the financial strain of buying the house, or if this position should be generalized to the financial strain of owning it.

The applying sextile between Venus and Jupiter (L1-L6) could represent that one reason I want to buy a house is that I would like to have all my pets with me. My current landlord allows some animals but not others.

Thanks again.
Allow yourself to be molded by your own talents.

My pronouns are she, her, hers

4
Leo-Poet wrote:Hi, WCA.

Thanks for your input. The moon moves from a trine with Saturn to a sextile with Venus, so there is a planet linking Saturn and Venus. But I certainly appreciate that someone might read that differently.
Moon has separated from Saturn by about 13?, and 7? separated from her square to Venus. she won't reach Venus by sextile for another 23?. personally I'd consider these to be wildly out of orb, and would not admit the Moon to be connecting Saturn and Venus.
Leo-Poet wrote:I realize that these two are separating, but I took that as a description of the fact that the house was actually under contract when I asked the question. Now it is not under contract. It is my understanding that the previous buyers could not secure financing. The first contract did not fail because of anything known to be wrong with the house.
you asked if you should buy the house on Myers, so the chart will answer this for you regardless of contractual status. as in all horaries, we want to see primary significators brought together. here they are separating and not being brought together by a third, which is a strong negative testimony.
Leo-Poet wrote:As I mentioned in my original post, I also have concerns about Mars and Saturn in the chart. Certainly, Saturn in the second has got me wondering. The house is made of stone, so Saturn as sig is not inappropriate.
Saturn is also in a water sign, not ideal for purchasing property though that doesn't have to be the primary consideration here.
Leo-Poet wrote:I have wondered if the second house position indicates the financial strain of buying the house, or if this position should be generalized to the financial strain of owning it.
I don't see why it can't be both, but I imagine its most immediate implication is "you can't afford this." but I only say it goes to that extreme because L2 is in detriment and opposing Uranus from the Asc.
Leo-Poet wrote:The applying sextile between Venus and Jupiter (L1-L6) could represent that one reason I want to buy a house is that I would like to have all my pets with me. My current landlord allows some animals but not others.
certainly possible, but I'm inclined the chart would make that point another way (like Moon on 6th cusp, or ruling 6th, or your significator in 6th, etc.). applying aspects tend to give us insight on what's going to happen.

I should have done a better job of directly replying to your points before, but I was responding on a mobile and found it too difficult to reply to points directly. I'll do so here.
Leo-Poet wrote:Does the chart show that I will end up buying the property?
I don't see any indications of successful acquisition.
Leo-Poet wrote:There are some positives. My sig, Venus, is dignified by domicile.
true, and this certainly argues that you are "in your element." Venus's partile sextile to Jupiter is also heartening. but we have to take into consideration Venus's rulership over the malefic 8th house and her placement there, and her separating opposition to Saturn (ruler of the quesited) to get a well-rounded picture of her situation. these things can't exist in a vacuum.
Leo-Poet wrote:The horary moon in is mutual reception with both Venus and Jupiter, showing the possibility of aid in the resolution of the matter.
there can't be reception without aspect. the Moon is 20?+ away from Venus and Jupiter both, and makes no traditional aspect to them. what we have instead is generosity, a situation in which planets are casually supportive of one another. planets in generosity don't go out of their way to assist, but the relationship is one of "moral support."
Leo-Poet wrote:Mars, almuten of the fourth house, is conjunct the ascendant.
I don't see the virtue of pointing toward Mars as a positive indication of anything here. he's in detriment and in opposition to Uranus, and has more to say about the state of your finances and what kinds of responses you'll get for pursuing this property than the property itself. Mars in Libra is wicked, the "thug," and due to his accidental strength on the Ascendant he is well positioned to bring harm. arguments, fighting, rows between you and your partner (notice Mars rules the 7th, with Uranus sitting on his Ascendant). tread lightly or not at all.
Leo-Poet wrote:The horary moon translates L4-Saturn to L1-Venus.
as discussed above, she does not. translation requires a speedier planet separating from a weighty planet, and before the speedy planet is fully separated from the first applies to a second. traditional considerations, then, require the translating planet to be within orb of two planets simultaneously.

this is a critical point because translation is an act of conferring influence from one to another, through the use of an intermediary. we need to see who the Moon is receiving influence from and where she is next directing it. for instance, if the Moon was translating from your significator to the quesited's, this is an argument that you will obtain your desire with a little effort and diligence from you, and a third party will be of some assistance in helping you get what you want. but if the Moon was translating light from the quesited's significator to yours, this is reversed -- it's as if a third party is delivering your desires to your doorstep, and will require very little work from you. always it is better, with application and with translation, to see quesited's significator coming to the querent's. in this chart, the Moon is separating from both Saturn (out of orb) and Venus (still within orb), and not yet applying to anyone. there is no translation.
Leo-Poet wrote:On the other hand, the house is represented by co-almutens Mars and Saturn, both malefics.
Saturn first. primary significators always first. if you want to look at the almuten that's fine (and may even be advised in some cases), but needs to be second to the primary ruler of that house.
Leo-Poet wrote:This suggests to me that the house may have problems and be a source of aggravation to me.
yes. Saturn rules, in a watery sign (the sign of another malefic who himself is in detriment), retrograde and in your 2nd house -- nothing but one misfortune begetting another. all to the ruin of your own financial peace and independence.
Leo-Poet wrote:Also, the moon?s final aspect is a square to Mercury Rx, which shows that negotiations won?t work out despite lots of effort and stress. What do others think?
responding to this properly would take up way too much space on this thread and throw us in an entirely different direction. I am just going to advise you to do a little more research on the classical use of aspects. it appears to me that you're simply noting all the aspects that the Moon will make her in current sign, when what's really important are planets she's most recently contacted and who she will next aspect regardless of sign boundaries.

the last aspect the Moon made was a trine to retrograde and combust Mercury (which you accurately delineated as contracts and negotiations falling out and the house being re-listed), and she doesn't apply to anyone directly and is traveling into the void. she isn't void herself, as that would indicate that she's empty of any planet's influence -- she's still carrying Mercury's virtue from that very recent trine. but, she has no one to convey that virtue to and that indicates no activity or development, or at the very least a stalling in the process.
Last edited by Wade on Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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5
Hi WCA:

It is not accurate to say I "can't even afford this." I can, but I would be stretching a bit, which is a concern of mine. I would never have looked at the house to begin with if I couldn't afford it at all. I understand that you're trying to draw out a point you see in the chart--but I feel your wording is overly dramatic and does not reflect the reality of my situation.

I appreciate the time you have taken to look through the chart and my previous posts about it.

Thanks again for your interest, and good luck to you in your future horary studies.


LP
Allow yourself to be molded by your own talents.

My pronouns are she, her, hers

6
Leo-Poet wrote:Hi WCA:

It is not accurate to say I "can't even afford this." I can, but I would be stretching a bit, which is a concern of mine. I would never have looked at the house to begin with if I couldn't afford it at all. I understand that you're trying to draw out a point you see in the chart--but I feel your wording is overly dramatic and does not reflect the reality of my situation.
my apologies, no offense meant. :) I appreciate the feedback. I did not mean to imply you were unable to make the payments as you said you could. I more meant that, given the state of Saturn and Mars, it appeared this property would become a money out and deplete you of resources. the price of the property certainly seems high, as testified by Jupiter's exalted state in the 10th, but the costs of regular maintenance could more than overwhelm if the payments are already on the higher range. hope that clarifies.
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7
Hi, Leo-Poet

As the querent, you are Venus in Taurus in the 8thH. The seller of the house is symbolized by Mars in Libra in 1stH, the house symbolized by Saturn in Scorpio in the 2ndH and the price by the Moon in Pisces in the 5thH.

I think that the person selling the house is someone who would be willing to negotiate with you but that you'll find yourself having to depend on your partner's resources as your own are poor and constraint, while the price of the house is quite high. I would go so far as to say that it is overpriced for its shape. You would have to otherwise go on a budget were you to be able to afford this house yourself without it diminishing your resources.

There is no aspect between your significator, the Moon or that of the buyer's, so I'll have to say No. I don't think that you'll buy this house.

8
Leo-Poet,

Do you know when the house came on the market and you were told about it/saw it? When in June was it?

I'm curious whether Venus' opposition to Saturn represents, timing-wise, your first hearing of the house. The opposition could indicate that immediately after finding the house it went into contract with another buyer.


BM

9
Hi Folks:
Sorry I haven?t responded to questions until now. One of my cats has been sick and that?s taken up some of my attention (he is better now).

First, I want WCA to know that I wasn?t offended, and I do appreciate the clarification of your reading. :)

I also think it may help people to have a little more background on the house and on me. In my work location, I have a stable job and a solid middle class income. I am self-supporting. Although I have a very generous partner who likes to help me sometimes, I am not dependent on him. I have some stock and savings to put towards a down payment if I decide to proceed with buying a property on my own.

The property is an 80-year-old stone house with a completely renovated interior. The current selling price is commensurate with its location and apparent condition.

I don't know when the house was first listed. I first saw it about a week before I cast the chart.

Mercury is Rx in this chart. I recently read (in a book on horary by Derek Appleby) that ME Rx may indicate not all the facts are known. Mercury is also combust; the Sun is almuten of the 7th house cusp. Some astrologers would use the Sun as a co-sig of the Seller (I know that not all astrologers use almutens this way but some do). So, there may be something wrong with the house that even the seller doesn?t know about yet. Perhaps this unknown circumstance would, were it to come to light, make the house worth less money, or very expensive to maintain/fix.

In CA, page 205, Lilly indicates that the Moon is a co-sig of the ?House, Ground or Manor to be bought or purchased.? The Moon is in mutual reception by exaltation with L1-Venus. In CA, page 112, Lilly indicates that ?if mutual Reception happen between the principal significators, the thing is brought to pass,? even if there is not an aspect between them. Now, one could argue that the Moon is not a principal significator. But, if we allow that it is, then the MR is one positive testimony.

Lilly also indicates that L4 conjunct the AC is a testimony that ?the Party inquiring [shall] buy the House or Inheritance at that time in question (CA page 205). Mars is co-almuten of the IC and conjunct the AC. So, if we allow almutens as co-sigs, then Mars on the AC can be a testimony for purchasing the house (and once again, I want to emphasize I do realize that not all astrologers use almutens this way). Further, Mars is in mixed mutual reception with Saturn (MA in exaltation of SA, SA in domicile of MA). Many years ago, at UAC 2002, I attended a horary lecture in which a technique called ?mutual reception by degree? was presented. The astrologer (whose name I cannot recall at the moment) essentially ?flips? planets in mutual reception. In this case, we could read the chart as having L4-Saturn conjunct the ascendant. Now, as I mentioned in my OP, having malefics representing the house may mean this property won?t exactly be a joy to own.

At this point, I have decided to wait a couple of weeks before deciding whether to buy this or any property. Right now, my partner and I are on holiday. I will return to my work location during August, and he will be staying with me for a while. We plan on looking at some different properties, including the stone house if it is still on the market. I have seen it in person, but he has not. He remains very skeptical of this particular property, so if I do get something, it probably won?t be this house. But it IS a beautiful house, whatever the chart may say about it!

Thanks again to everyone for their input. :)

LP
Allow yourself to be molded by your own talents.

My pronouns are she, her, hers

10
Leo-Poet wrote:First, I want WCA to know that I wasn?t offended, and I do appreciate the clarification of your reading. :)
:)
Leo-Poet wrote:Mercury is Rx in this chart. I recently read (in a book on horary by Derek Appleby) that ME Rx may indicate not all the facts are known. Mercury is also combust; the Sun is almuten of the 7th house cusp. Some astrologers would use the Sun as a co-sig of the Seller (I know that not all astrologers use almutens this way but some do). So, there may be something wrong with the house that even the seller doesn?t know about yet. Perhaps this unknown circumstance would, were it to come to light, make the house worth less money, or very expensive to maintain/fix.
you know I don't use almutens in the way you're using them, which is a non-issue (to each their own), but there is a point you made here that I found interesting: Merc Rx - some facts unknown. if Sun is seller, combusting Mercury, even the Sun doesn't know of all the problems.

it seems to me that if the Sun is the one doing the combusting, hiding Mercury if you will, that the Sun would be the one hiding the facts and keeping them from coming to light. likely unintentional, or at least no malice is meant. the Sun is not a corrupting influence. even when badly debilitated the worst that happens is the truth remains hidden. I'm not sure I look at this Sun/Merc Rx lineup as "seller is unaware of the facts," if you're using Sun as the seller. if a planet is doing the damaging, it's responsible for it.

now, if Venus was significator of the seller, also combust with Mercury and Mercury retrograde, I think you would have a stellar point -- Venus would be kept in the dark regarding potential home issues.
Leo-Poet wrote:In CA, page 205, Lilly indicates that the Moon is a co-sig of the ?House, Ground or Manor to be bought or purchased.? The Moon is in mutual reception by exaltation with L1-Venus. In CA, page 112, Lilly indicates that ?if mutual Reception happen between the principal significators, the thing is brought to pass,? even if there is not an aspect between them. Now, one could argue that the Moon is not a principal significator. But, if we allow that it is, then the MR is one positive testimony.
it is true that Lilly defined reception as planets being in the other's domicile, exaltation, triplicity, term or face, and makes a statement that appears to define reception as existing without aspect (CA, p. 112). the problem is that Lilly's definitions were often quite lax. reception was a well-understood principle in his time, as were many principles that Lilly chooses not to belabor. Lilly had no idea that 400 years later, students would be using his book as a bridge back to an uncorrupted astrological past. if he had such knowledge, I'm sure he would have taken more care in his definitions, examples, and how he worded his arguments.

looking at a broader range of traditional sources, we see that a placement in another's dignities is termed "generosity," and only rightly becomes reception when the planets are in proper aspect. the reason for this is that generosity is a general disposition -- "you are in my sign, and though we are not interacting I am more to less keen to leave you alone and let you be." (and perhaps provide moral support.) this would be akin to you, as a king or queen, allowing a foreign dignitary to travel through your land unharmed. you aren't directly engaged with them, but they enjoy your general protection.

reception is more special and more intense than that. reception is not merely a disposition, but a disposition (generosity) plus action. picture you are a king or queen, and allow some such foreign dignitary to approach you and treat with you, whatever that matter may be. your guards sheathe their swords (the literal meaning of the Latin recipio, origin of the term "reception," is to withdraw or pull back) and allow that dignitary to pass and approach the king and demand whatever it is he wishes.

there's more to say, and it's fascinating. I find that visuals help, so for those struggling to understand the difference, examples of receiving foreign guests and dignitaries are everywhere in HBO's rendition of the book series Game of Thrones. (not even sure if you watch that show or read the books, but GoT does demonstrate this principle excellently.)

at any rate, it's good to challenge all sources we read and ensure it's aligned with standard practice and tradition. Lilly wasn't wrong, he just didn't deliver the precision needed to put generosity and reception in their proper places.
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11
Hi Folks:

Here is an update. Last Friday, my partner and I arrived in town to look at houses, including the stone house that is the quesited in my horary. My partner liked the stone house a lot more in person. When my agent met us, it turned out that the seller had dropped the asking price of the house significantly and he is "ready to sell." There was another house we liked, but that one had just gone under contract a few hours before we toured it.

My partner and I talked and talked about the stone house. We visited all the comps. I thought I was going to lose my mind a few times because we couldn't come to an agreement on anything. And then finally, yesterday morning, we made an offer together on it (both our names will be on the deed). We did not offer the full current asking price, and we had a ton of contingencies. Because of some concerns raised in this thread, I want to make sure the house is okay, so we are going to have a super-thorough inspection. We also learned that another buyer toured the house for the second time, so there may end up being another offer. My partner and I don't want to be in a bidding war, so if we end up competing with another buyer, we've decided to forget about this house and look for something else.

I hope to hear something today about our offer.

LP
Allow yourself to be molded by your own talents.

My pronouns are she, her, hers

12
Another Update:

The seller countered our offer and we countered back. Yesterday afternoon, the seller accepted our counter offer. We ended up getting the house for 15K less that the original listing price. We now have the house under contract.

It turns out that it will be more advantageous for my boyfriend to take out the mortgage in his name only. I will still be on the deed and will be the one making the mortgage payments. Technically, I guess you could say that I am not the one "buying" the property, since the financing is not in my name. My question asked if I would buy the house.

I am trying to schedule the inspection for next week. It will be EXTREMELY thorough. My BF and I have determined that we will back out if there is anything we don't like in the inspection.

Cheers!

LP
Allow yourself to be molded by your own talents.

My pronouns are she, her, hers