Muchacho wrote:

Michael,

What Seth says there seems to be in alignment with what I've heard Abraham-Hicks say about astrology. It's all about potentials and actually more about probabilities than possibilities.

Muchacho,

Yes, Esther Hicks, with the assistance of her husband Jerry, certainly did an amazing job sharing unusual perspectives from a transpersonal source. I'm not familiar with most of their publications, however. I would appreciate a reference to where Abraham-Hicks talked about astrology.

Actually, Seth did give some specific information on how we are creating our personal reality, from various angles. It seems to be a vast and complex topic, however, and it's not easy to put all the pieces of this jig-saw in their place.

Do you know if Seth believes in the concept of souls?

Yes, one of his best known books actually has the title Seth Speaks: The Eternal Validity of the Soul. Alternatively, Seth would use terms like "entity", and others. He insisted that we are a part of our soul, inseparable from it. His concept of the whole self was more encompassing than any other I have ever heard of, and he kept expanding it over the years. On the website mentioned above, the following post might give you some idea, even though it is based on material from a rather early period of Seth's activity.

http://www.gestaltreality.com/2013/05/2 ... onal-self/

Waybread,

Yes, attitude is a very important factor. I fully agree that interpretations should focus on the potentials. However, following the LOA logic of 'like attracts like' or, if we apply this to people, 'people of similar vibrations will be drawn to each other' (birds of a feather flock together) then the astrologer and the client have to be of a similar vibrational level in order to have a meaningful interaction or to get matched up at all. It's not likely that someone all bright and shiny will go to an astrologer that tends to hand out defeatist interpretations. And it's also not likely that someone with a fatalistic attitude will go to an astrologer that believes that everyone is the creator of their own reality and that our thoughts are more influential than the stars and planets. If both are to far apart (vibrationally speaking) then there is no meaningful interaction possible and they probably won't even cross each others paths.

Which I think is an important point to keep in mind if we should talk about 'responsibility' in the context of giving advice and such.

I also fully agree that there is the question of appropriateness. Giving answers to questions the client has never asked is only confusing. As you say, someone fully occupied with the physical plane doesn't want to hear a metaphysical lecture.

waybread wrote:And I think we're on the physical plane for a reason. I think we are meant to live in it as our medium of existence in this incarnation; and not just try to outsmart it, out-theorize it, rise above it, or ignore it.

As long as 'for a reason' doesn't mean that we are here to learn certain lessons that we didn't learn the last time we were around or that we are here to accomplish some kind of important mission like uplifting humanity, I'll agree.

And yes, the non-physical plane is not better than the physical plane. They are different only in perspective, but not one better than the other, not one more spiritual than the other because there is no separation between physical and non-physical. The physical is an extension of the non-physical. In fact, if we follow the A-H teaching, the physical is the leading edge of creation.

Michael,

According to A-H, the creation process is very simple, you get back what you are sending out vibrationally. And by the way you feel, you always know if what you are sending out (and therefore what you will get back) is in alignment with your broader intentions or not. That's very precise 'inner guidance' here and now. Which means from that point of view, astrology is just secondary 'outer guidance' and basically superfluous (but also not wrong!). I don't know if Seth has been that clear.

I will dig up some A-H quotes about astrology later and put it in a separate post.

I've read your link about souls and this seems to be going into the direction of what A-H say (I say 'they' because the Abraham entity is a group entity) about this topic (although less technical):

"The mistake that most make, or the assumption that is not accurate that most physical Beings make, is that there is one physical Being, or one physical clump, and one Nonphysical clump that is assigned to that physical clump. And we say, it is not that way. It is a Stream of Consciousness that may flow through you and a tree and a dog, all in the same moment."

This is a whole new perspective on the traditional reincarnation concept.

Muchacho wrote:

According to A-H, the creation process is very simple, you get back what you are sending out vibrationally. And by the way you feel, you always know if what you are sending out (and therefore what you will get back) is in alignment with your broader intentions or not.

A-H has a beautiful as well as practical way to explain the creation process. However, breaking it down a little further, and in the most simple of terms, it seems that our surroundings either mirrors us (including unconscious parts of ours) or complement us in some way. An example for the latter being somebody with a lack of Earth in the natal chart and a weak Saturn position always making Capricorn friends.

That's very precise 'inner guidance' here and now. Which means from that point of view, astrology is just secondary 'outer guidance' and basically superfluous (but also not wrong!). I don't know if Seth has been that clear.

Agreed, basically we could find all our answers simply by looking within. To have a suitable mirror can be very helpful sometimes, however.

Seth was really not very elaborate on the topic of astrology, but he certainly would have agreed that inner guidance should always be foremost.

I will dig up some A-H quotes about astrology later and put it in a separate post.

I can't wait for it!

I've read your link about souls and this seems to be going into the direction of what A-H say (I say 'they' because the Abraham entity is a group entity) about this topic (although less technical):

"The mistake that most make, or the assumption that is not accurate that most physical Beings make, is that there is one physical Being, or one physical clump, and one Nonphysical clump that is assigned to that physical clump. And we say, it is not that way. It is a Stream of Consciousness that may flow through you and a tree and a dog, all in the same moment."

This is a whole new perspective on the traditional reincarnation concept.

That sounds interesting but a little unclear for my taste without further explanation.

Michael

"All the world?s a stage,
And all the men and women merely players."

...but still, I prefer to see the world through the lenses of Two, rather than One. Two is better than one.

The world is a Role-Playing Game, and there are winning and losing conditions. People inside the game may feel like they are doing something meaningful. The players "outside" the game may not feel the same; to them, it may merely be entertainment.

Nonetheless, to me, it is rather more practical to see the world as having both advantages and disadvantages, and to maximise on the advantages while mitigating disadvantages. Both pre-determination and free will exist, rather than being a non-issue. There is a post I made on another forum that describes my view on this. There may be no "inherently" bad charts. However, life experiences are perceived as good or bad or neutral, and to me, these are problems to solve in this world. Maybe it is meaningless to solve them once I'm dead, but as long as I am within this stage, I shall act my part.

Without pain, there can be no pleasure. To live like the spiritual masters is to deny myself both pleasure and pain. It is mental suicide. However, there is merit in it, for those people who are experiencing mostly pain and no pleasure. On the other hand, in such situations, I prefer to seek pleasure to compensate for my pain, rather than avoiding the pain.





Michael,

I think that quote is just an elaboration on Oneness. There are no souls, only One Soul (and this sounds like Anima Mundi). All of our souls, presuming the existence of a soul, are either fragments of the same soul, or are in fact the same, identical soul. Think of RAM. There are many processes in a computer requiring the use of a RAM. Yet, it is possible to run multiple processes using only one RAM. In the same way, it is possible for one soul to animate multiple individuals.

So a person who thinks "my soul goes to heaven, your soul to hell" is rather misguided, according to this theory. If my soul goes to heaven, then your soul also goes to heaven, for the souls are identical or inseparable.

This also kind of relates to the idea of benefics and malefics in the Ptolemaic universe. Jupiter and Venus are both moist; they have uniting and combining qualities. Saturn and Mars are both dry; they are separative in nature. So the combining planets, being closer to One (or the Anima Mundi), are benefic, while the separating planets, causing things to move away from One, are malefic.


It also reminds me of one of my hypotheses on re-incarnation, which I will not go into for the moment.

The question presumes that Astrologer knows everything and all that is left is how to break the bad news ?

Humility, care and circumspection is needed because of the astrologers own frailties, leave alone the querent's misfortune.

Why do people take up astrology ?

One reason is that they are unable to decide about something.Now. if the same person is going to do the astrology, he or she is going to be equally indecisive- it just shifts the indecisiveness to a different branch of knowledge.Most successful astrologers or for that matter all successful people are decisive and able to take risk and take the blame or deftly transfer it to a subscript.

From a practical standpoint, astrology is about decisions and risk-taking.As an amateur astrologer, i have most often gone wrong, when I am unable to convey the fruitlessness of a venture and the person keeps coming back for more and more follow-up questions.

PD

Michael,

I think that quote is just an elaboration on Oneness. There are no souls, only One Soul (and this sounds like Anima Mundi). All of our souls, presuming the existence of a soul, are either fragments of the same soul, or are in fact the same, identical soul. Think of RAM. There are many processes in a computer requiring the use of a RAM. Yet, it is possible to run multiple processes using only one RAM. In the same way, it is possible for one soul to animate multiple individuals.

So a person who thinks "my soul goes to heaven, your soul to hell" is rather misguided, according to this theory. If my soul goes to heaven, then your soul also goes to heaven, for the souls are identical or inseparable.

What is not included in this is that we are not simply the receivers of some all-ambient flow but just as much transmitters in our own right. This reminds me of a discussion I once had with a Zen priest in Japan.

What your comment further makes me think of is a metaphor by Itzhak Bentov in which he draws the minds/souls of individual people as cones projected from the top of their heads. The higher up you go, the more each cone expands, and the more it becomes congruent with all the other cones...

This also kind of relates to the idea of benefics and malefics in the Ptolemaic universe. Jupiter and Venus are both moist; they have uniting and combining qualities. Saturn and Mars are both dry; they are separative in nature. So the combining planets, being closer to One (or the Anima Mundi), are benefic, while the separating planets, causing things to move away from One, are malefic.

This reflects something I wrote myself on the "Is Uranus Associated with Uranus?" that I would like to again share here:

Another way of looking of looking at a planet's nature is based on the planetary sigils: Saturn's glyph consists of a moon under a cross, the latter symbolizing the physical (earth = the four elements or directions); and Mars' glyph (in one variation) is a circle (sun) under a cross. The benefics' glyphs are exactly reversed: Jupiter is a moon over a cross, Venus a circle over a cross. The way I read this, the material forces are dominating the spiritual in a malefic; vice versa with the benefics. The division into malefics and benefics may then reflect a certain gnostic perspective according to which the physical world is conceived as inherently bad, the spiritual world as good. Not a point of view that I would subscribe to - but in terms of etheric energies, it's fair to say that the malefics have a stronger tendency to lower the frequency while the benefics tend to lift it up. Sure enough, living in a physical world, we need both types of influences. I wouldn't make a dualistic bad/good thing out of it, which the ancient terms however imply.

Pankaj, that point has been raised earlier and acknowledged. Indeed, I am human and humans are not omniscient. The question became, if, despite stretching myself to the best of my abilities, I cannot see a way to get out of the difficult situation, what should I say to the client?

To me, the answer was to seek more knowledge and insights so that I can help the person better, to ask him to do what he can in the meanwhile, and to count his blessings, no matter how few they are. Additionally, it also meant feeling the client to see how much adversity he can handle at that moment, and to ease him in on his misfortunes, as Deb Houlding suggested.




Michael,

Of course, in life, there is both the Fortune component and the Spirit component. That analogy was not meant to be comprehensive.

Yeah, things are not either "all bad" or "all good". But some ancient authors probably did not think about things in a totally dualistic way. In Valens, I have read not once, not twice, but THRICE about his statement that when the malefics are well-placed, even they are bestower of good things. On the contrary, benefics who are amiss can cause reversals. Dorotheus' books probably had at least one statement that conveys a similar notion. Finally, in Maternus, we see for example that a positively positioned Mars gives the native an authoritative power over people (which, from my perspective, is a good thing).

And let's not forget Valens' analogy of the paints.

Personally, at the moment I am convinced that the benefics are more beneficial to the native than malefics. To be precise, well-placed benefics are more supportive than well-placed malefics. Similarly, badly positioned benefics is still better than badly positioned malefics. Benefics, even when compromised, still strive to create something good for the native. Malefics, when amiss, are quite content in demolishing the native's life.


Of course, the main issue is the difference in values between human beings. For instance, I believe that money and property is good; it is the way that people acquire and use their financial resources that can lead to evil things. Hence, for a person like me, a lot of money => a good thing => benefic. However, if you ask Saleh (a character from FE: Sacred Stones), he'll say that material affluence begets strife. It is better to live without those things. To him, a lot of money => bad => malefic.

Basically, we may reach different conclusions if we base ourselves on different values, on different axioms. If I agree with the ancients that Saturn and Mars are malefics, while Jupiter and Venus are benefics, it may be because I have values similar to the ancients.

...And that is the question.

@Larexene,

Think of yourself as a Doctor or a healer and follow the principles of breaking bad news.

First step is to ask what the querent already knows about the situtation.
Second , what are their worst fears and their best hopes.

By these two questions, you have already primed them and then follow it with- I am afraid ....

A famous Scottish physician, Sir Robert Hutchison wrote the book- Hutchison's Clinical Methods ,now in it's 23 edition.Towards the end of his career his advise to young physicians was:

From inability to let well alone; from too much zeal for the new and contempt for what is old; from putting knowledge before wisdom, science before art and cleverness before common sense; from treating patients as cases; and from making the cure of the disease more grievous than the endurance of the same, Good Lord, deliver us.
Sir Robert Hutchison, 20th century physician, British Medical Journal, 1953; 1: 671.

http://www.bmj.com/content/1/4811/671.1

from another:

Cured yesterday of my disease, I died last night of my physician.
Matthew Prior (1664-1721).

Sometimes, it is best left alone by saying I can't answer it !!


Pankaj

pankaj - good quotes. thanks!

Larxene wrote:

Michael,

Of course, in life, there is both the Fortune component and the Spirit component. That analogy was not meant to be comprehensive.

The Lot Of Fortune indicating what happens to us, the Lot Of Spirit what we contribute ourselves, then?

To be precise, well-placed benefics are more supportive than well-placed malefics.

Well, the question here (that you address yourself in the remainder of your post) is: More supportive in what regard? I.e., living the relatively spartan and secluded life of a monk may be so much easier with a well-placed Saturn in 12th! But of course, it could well be your Saturn inspiring you to do this in the first place. So even though it wouldn't be what most people would look at as a happy life, it might make you happy - if in accordance with your overall personality.

Michael,

here's what Abraham said about astrology:

"They [the stars] influence, but they are like a very small flea on the back of a very big dog compared to conscious thought. Conscious thought is so much more powerful. When you make a decision, and then you consciously, vibrationally harmonize with your own decision, the entire Universe works to assist. If someone says to you "I?m a very powerful being and I have the ability to put a curse on you, and I don?t like you one bit, and so for the next few days you are going to start feeling funny, then you are going to start limping, then you are going to start falling down, and in time you won?t be able to walk at all." And if you are believing in their power, tomorrow you are going to start limping. And in a few days you are going to start falling down. And it?s not because they have any power other than the power of influence. They projected a thought, you focused upon it, it was the opposite of what you wanted because it was the opposite of what you wanted, but you gave your attention to it, you disallowed what you wanted, when you disallow what you want, you get what you don?t want. You say "Gee, that was a powerful person." We say, it?s not that that was a powerful person. It?s that his influence caused you to focus upon something you didn?t want, and Law of Attraction took over from there. There are no powerful people. There is only the powerful Law of Attraction, which you get in sync with or not."


"The only thing that affects your experience is your own resistance. All of those planets and all the way they line up, all of that balance is for the perpetuation of well-being. And so, as you accept well-being, then you cannot experience anything else. But if you focus and assume not well-being, then it is your resistance that disallows it. All of you come forth with enough of the same vibrational intentions. You come forth into a sea of contrast with very clear, deliberate intents to upliftment and well-being and to add unto and all of that. And if you could be born and never again have another conscious thought, then we would say those intentions that were launched before your birth would carry you. But that can?t happen. Because in every moment that you are now physically focused, you are projecting thought in response to things around you, and your physical experience is a byproduct of that. Certainly, mostly controlled by the well-being that abounds. But those [astrology] books have been written by physical beings. Physical beings who, for the most part, are pushing against something. "


"Everything we are talking about is about creating. And creating is about thinking. And thinking is about setting a vibration in motion and the trajectory for this life experience did not start the day you were born. There was a trajectory that you had set into motion, and the precise timing and placement of your birth, perfect in every aspect, no exceptions, to what you were intending, to the trajectory from your non-physical resistance-free perspective. It's misunderstood and so many astrologers are trying to make it more cut-and-dried than we are able to do. Some are able to tune in to the trajectory, which brings up another question: "My trajectory, is it my job to find it and to fulfill it?" And we say, if you are feeling good, you are. But your predominant intention was not to complete a trajectory that was set into motion prior to your birth, it was to explore life and to continue to create the trajectory. Because you are the creator of your reality, not a puppet on a string, not even a puppet on a string with you at another level of your being being the puppet master. You get to decide right here and now who you are."