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Why is Virgo a bi-corporeal sign? What are its two bodies?
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Larxene



Joined: 22 Sep 2012
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Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While we're on the topic, can someone explain to me why is it that 0 Aries is where spring begins, when the Sun in Virgo causes spring-like things to occur already?

Perhaps because in Virgo, the season contains both spring-like and winter-like events?
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Deb
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Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I may be confused by your question but Virgo is not (as far as I'm aware) associated with spring, but the change of season from summer to autumn. This is what Manilius says in reference to Erigone (his name for Virgo):

“Erigone, too, is numbered among the double signs, but the duality in her appearance is not the reason; for at the middle of the Virgin summer on one side ceases and autumn on the other begins” (2.175; Loeb p.97).

The significance of precession is also relevant to comment he makes a little later where he says “summer comes with the Twins, autumn with the Virgin, winter begins with the Archer, spring with the Fishes” (2.265)
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waybread



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Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right! Sometimes the old-timers referred to climatic change, not the star calendar in isolation.
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Larxene



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Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh sorry, I mistook Virgo for Pisces there. I meant to ask why is the autumnal equinox placed at 0 Libra instead of, say, 15 Virgo, if the season begins to change to autumn in Virgo?
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Mjacob



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Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

waybread wrote:
Right! Sometimes the old-timers referred to climatic change, not the star calendar in isolation.


I made a reference to this idea in my post of the 8th April but would like to point out that I am not an old-timer. I am a middle-aged timer. Ageism aside anyone can use their free will to believe the evidence of their own eyes and and see that blooming flowers, lambing and the absense of frost indicate spring, and infer that spring has begun by reasoning not "facts" in books. Much as one should value one's ephemeris
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Last edited by Mjacob on Sun Apr 13, 2014 2:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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waybread



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Posted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By "old-timers" I meant the ancient Hellenistic astrologers!
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Mark
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Posted: Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb wrote:
Quote:
Yes, the Manilius reference is very interesting in suggesting that the vernal point was originally expected to be in the middle of the signs rather than the beginning; especially combined with his reference to the shifting position of the vernal point at the end of his third book, and details provided by Goold (p.lxxxi) which shows how older accounts placed it at the 15th degree of the signs. That makes a lot of sense to me, given our knowledge of the history of the zodiac and how long it was employed before the period when the 1st degree of the constellation Aries coincided with the VP.


As you suggest the fact Manilius appears to support the idea of the seasonal shifts occurring in the middle of the signs indicates he was tapping into a much older tradition. I have located a reference to the 4th century BCE astronomer and mathematician Euxodus of Cnidus (408 BCE–355 BCE). He appears to be the original source of this idea in hellenistic astrology:

Quote:
Hipparchus shows that Eudoxus placed the points of the year in
the middle of the signs Capricorn, Aries, Cancer, and Libra, not at
the beginnings of the signs where he himself placed them. ..... Finally we must bear in mind that if Hipparchus means that Eudoxus placed the points
of the year in the very center of the signs, then Eudoxus at one time
adopted a vernal point at Aries 15°. STUDIES IN THE GREEK ASTRONOMERS, by George Huxley


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudoxus_of_Cnidus

Mark
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johannes susato



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Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2014 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could it be that the discussion with regard to Manilius is running little bit on the wrong way, not meeting with his teachings really? His text as to bicorporeal signs seems to be treated here as it would concern tropical signs, whereas Manilius distinguishes both in fact (of course), saying that the "astra bina" go before the "astra tropica".

And Manilius states, as Deb has mentioned and I have quoted above, that there are three degrees named by authorities, i.e. the 8th, 10th, and the 1st, but explicitly within the tropics ("tropica"), not within the bicorporeals ("bina"), these degrees signifying the longest, shortest and equal days (III, 671-682).

So with Manilius these relevant degrees are not within the bicorporeal signs, but they clearly are within the tropics.
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johannes susato



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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The essence of the bi-corporeal signs Manilius gives in II, 178-180:

"The reason why the bi-corporeals precede the tropics as Aries, Libra, Cancer, and Capricorn, is because they, connecting two seasons, contain double forces."

These signs announce the end of the preceding season and the next season to begin, but they are not the end and the beginning itself - II, 192,193:

"Also the two Pisces, sent ahead by Aries, name (portend, allude to) two seasons: The one of them closes winter, the other begins spring."

This is my onw translation, so it would be fine, if Deb or someone else could add the Goold translation.
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's interesting.. i am curious how the siderealists view bi-corporal signs? anyone have an idea? i can't imagine it being based the seasons, but i don't know.
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

James wrote:
Quote:
i am curious how the siderealists view bi-corporal signs? anyone have an idea? i can't imagine it being based the seasons, but i don't know.


Hi James,

I think you will find an answer if you check out this ongoing thread on the sidereal forum:

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8223

Mark
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Larxene



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Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops, looks like Mark beat me to the punch. Tongue Out

@johannes:

What does it mean to "announce the end of one season and the beginning of another"?
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Phil



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Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deb and Mark,

Regarding your discussion on the first page of the VP shifting throught the signs, from perhaps 15 degress to 10, 8, etc., I don't understand how the autumn equinox would have fallen within Virgo in Manilius' time or before. I don't see how any Virgoan symbolism would contain such a thing. The equinox would've been in the other direction, i.e. Libra.

Please forgive me if I either missed your points or am off in visualizing the mechanics.

Phil
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johannes susato



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Posted: Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Larxene wrote:
[...] in Virgo, the season contains both spring-like and winter-like events?


If in your question you would replace Virgo by Pisces, i.e.:

[...] in Pisces, the season contains both spring-like and winter-like events.

then this would hit the teachings of Manilius perfectly, him saying

johannes susato wrote:
II, 178-180:

"The reason why the bi-corporeals precede the tropics as Aries, Libra, Cancer, and Capricorn, is because they, connecting two seasons, contain double forces."
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Larxene



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Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you johannes, but I do not understand something. As someone who lives in a place where seasons don't really exist, I have no first-hand experience with the them.

So how do the seasons change? Is it like, today is winter, and suddenly tomorrow is spring? Because if that is the case, then the vernal equinox should lie in Pisces, not Aries, since Pisces contains both seasons, and the seasons change or "turn" in it.
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