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Skyscript Astrology Forum

Why im not convinced by WSH
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damon



Joined: 23 Sep 2012
Posts: 419

Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 7:50 pm    Post subject: Why im not convinced by WSH Reply with quote

hi
Nigel Farage has Jupiter at 27 aries conjunct Mercury at 2 taurus. He is known for speaking his mind.
Yet in WSH they would be in different houses.Ive seen a few case like this which makes me cast doubts about wsh systm

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Farage,_Nigel
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Morpheus



Joined: 21 Mar 2007
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Location: Rawalpindi/Islamabad (Pakistan)

Posted: Sat Mar 30, 2013 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aries Sun....Sagittarius Moon...Mars in Aries and North Node square Sun
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3573
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this reminds me of the story of using the wrong tool for the job. don't use a saw if you want to nail something down. try a hammer instead..

any conjunction between 2 planets regardless whether it is in 2 different signs or houses is still going to have a significant impact based on the fact the planets are in a conjunction.. so, first things first - a conjunction is still a conjunction regardless of whether a person puts one of the planets in 1 house and the other in another.. a conjunction that involves 2 different signs - same deal.. consider the nature of the 2 planets first. mercury/jupiter conjunction -'confident thought process, without any other considerations from the chart. jupiter also trine the moon in the fire element - even more so..

i suppose this is the 'art' part to astrology that can drive some beginners crazy..
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 3573
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i was thinking about this a bit more this morning and realized that whole sign houses are coming out of hellenistic astrological practice.. the idea of 2 planets being in the same sign being 'conjunct' is another hellenistic idea as i understand it, and different from the idea of 2 planets being conjunct based on a particular orb which could include being across 2 signs.. this distinction would be another important consideration for someone wanting to practice an astrology close to the original 'hellenistic' idea based on my understanding of it.
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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 393
Location: Ouro Preto, Brasil

Posted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not think that using WS invalidates using the orb doctrine.

Furthermore, not every user of WS has a deep interest in the practice of an astrology closer to helenistic sources. Some just find WS more reasonable.

I, for one, respect the arabic contribution, so much so, that my work resembles it a lot more, although I only use divisions to convey planetary strength, not meaning of rulers (that job I leave to celestial houses, as opposed to the mundane ones).
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Ariondys



Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Posts: 191
Location: Vancouver Island, Canada

Posted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Why im not convinced by WSH Reply with quote

damon wrote:
hi
Nigel Farage has Jupiter at 27 aries conjunct Mercury at 2 taurus. He is known for speaking his mind.
Yet in WSH they would be in different houses.Ive seen a few case like this which makes me cast doubts about wsh systm

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Farage,_Nigel


I don't know this fellow but taking what you just told me: He is known for speaking his mind. The out-of-sign conjunction you appear to have your eye on while considering WSH may not be the critical link you seek.

This chart shows the 3rd house is Scorpio. And Mars is in Aries. The Domicile Lord is exalted.

http://www.azastrologers.org/Articles/noblehorsepr.pdf

I don't pretend to understand this complicated system of rulerships, but presumably the 3rd house is well ruled if he speaks well. The example goes on to suggest Mars in Aries can't "see" Scorpio because they are not in aspect, so I don't know. It seems to be asking a lot to suggest that a scorpio ruled house will never be "seen" if Mars is in Aries...
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AstroNovice



Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 153
Location: United States

Posted: Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.astro.com/astro-databank/Hitler,_Adolf

what about hitlers chart? According to most accounts, he was born around 6:30 pm, however I have read here that according to Wilhelm Wulff, hitler could have been born as early as 6:02 pm.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/wulff2.html

However both the 6:30 chart and the 6:02 chart give hitler a libra ascendant, which in a whole sign system pushes a placidus 3rd house moon and jupiter firmly into the fourth house, while pushing hitlers placidus 10th house saturn into the 11th house. Neither of which are very descriptive of hitlers life. The only chart that makes sense for hitler using WSH is using a birthtime around 6:47 pm. IMO I think it is more plausible that hitler was born around 6:47 pm and his commonly accepted birthtime of 6:30 pm is wrong as opposed to the possibility the WSH is ineffective or wrong. However wulff own personal account of being hitlers personal astrologer is quite convincing in its own right which does lead credence to the libra ascendant chart being the correct one. In any case I really do think that hitlers chart is a good one to use for trying to determine whether or not WSH or placidus is the actual correct one to use.[/url]
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Kenneth Johnson



Joined: 12 Aug 2012
Posts: 132
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA

Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm having difficulties here with terms like "the correct house system."

The picture is far too complex to be remanded to an almost impossible search for "the one and only" correct system.

The Greeks began with whole sign houses, yet also used what we now call Porphyry houses for specific purposes. The Hindus adopted whole sign houses and have never used anything else, even until the present day. The earliest Arabs appear to have used whole sign houses, but as the Middle Ages progressed, they switched to a house system called Alcabitius (al-Qabisi), which was also known to medieval astrologers like Bonatti. By the time we get to Lilly, the preferred system is Regiomontanus. Later, Placidus was developed, and in the 20th century we saw the rise of a plethora of house systems, from Rudhyar's Campanus (now seldom used) to Uranian meridian houses, to the popular Koch (which is an updated version of... Alcabitius!).

With all this incredible diversity. how is it even possible to hypothesize that only one single system can be correct and all the others must be wrong?
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Ariondys



Joined: 31 Oct 2012
Posts: 191
Location: Vancouver Island, Canada

Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120322104217AAlKIqU

"Been There" provides some wisdom
Quote:
Think about it ... people tend to round times, including birth times, off to the nearest hour as their first choice. The round it off to the nearest half-hour only as a second choice.
So it Hitler's birthtime is given as 6:30, it is extremely UNlikely that he was born at/around 7:00.
There is no astrological justification to rectify a birthchart in this manner, and this is very poor astrological practice.
This person seems more concerned about "being right" than it being correct.

As for Hitler's chart, the accepted 6:30 PM time shows Libra rising. Yes, people who knew him found him very charming


I have few doubts that Libra rising is correct. But that's just one more opinion on top of so many...

transit Pluto conjunct his MC in 1939 is quite convincing

also, it seems suspiciously probable "someone" told him some astrology. Perhaps that his primary direct Mars would conjunct his Part of Fortune. If so they were using 6:30. Who knows what was told him if they had.

Do astrologers reincarnate as astrologers again? If so, some of us were there... he wasn't very nice to astrologers.

I don't speak or write german but I reading some translated: german word, english, german word, english. I got to a point where I needed to move the page, the last word in german. I spaced out doodling... there's little doubt some part of me knew what that word was after I moved the the page considering my doodle.
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AstroNovice



Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 153
Location: United States

Posted: Fri May 03, 2013 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

interesting logic regarding the 6:30/7:00 pm time difference. Still, if we assume that hitler was indeed born at 6:30 (or any time below 6:47 pm) then that would make hitler a libra ascendant and would IMO greatly discredit the WSH system since hitlers libra WSH chart is not at all descriptive of his life.
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AstroNovice



Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 153
Location: United States

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so can anyone shed light on this? I'm still conflicted over hitlers chart and the proper interpretation of it and which house system should be used. In a nutshell, IF hitlers birthtime is correct, then it seem to make a pretty strong case against WSH, however if hitlers birthtime as we know it is wrong and he was born later then it makes an excellent case for the WSH. Or perhaps hitlers birthtime is correct and both placidus and WSH can be used together in some odd way. I'm not really sure, so I was hoping some of the heavyweights on this board could weigh in on the issue.
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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 470
Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 8:30 am    Post subject: Astrological tools and calibrations Reply with quote

Good morning,

'Rectification' of event times, in particular of human birth times like that of the historic German Chancellor Adolf Hitler, depends on the astrologer's assumptions concerning correspondences of terrestrial events to celestial phenomena, a system of topical places being one such assumption.

As, measured on the ecliptic, each equal sign consists of 30 degrees, some if not many have a tendency to consider whole sign topical houses as 'static' or even 'deterministic'. However, measured in primary daily motion of civil time, depending on latitude and season, equal signs rise with greatly differing velocities and accelerations / decelerations, sometimes not rising or not setting at all in polar regions.

As with most things astrological, comparatively much speculation but little systematic verification can be found concerning systems of topical places and the assignments of topics to them.

Best regards,

lihin
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AstroNovice



Joined: 24 Jun 2012
Posts: 153
Location: United States

Posted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so basically you are saying that maybe WSH system could be insufficient due to the nature of the actual rising and setting of the signs in the sky? This does sound plausible, plus I recall reading about how lily paid attention to signs of long and short ascension; so...if lily acknowledged that such things exist and do in fact affect the interpretation of the chart, then I guess that would make a solid case for the actual physical constellations (as opposed to the WSH non physically based zodiac) having an effect on us, which in turn would somewhat invalidate the WSH system as well. If of course, I am understanding everything correctly. Sorry but I cant help but feel that maybe I am a little bit out of my league when it comes to discussing complex astrological matters like this...
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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
Posts: 470
Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:55 am    Post subject: Unequal rising and yearly times of signs Reply with quote

Good morning,

Hellenistic authors, ex. gr. Vettius Valens, mentioned and often emphasised the importance of the differences in rising times amongst the tropical signs. If ones combines them with the signs' relative acceleration or slowing, for example fast and slowing Ariès and Libra, slow and accelerating Capricornus and Cancer, one has six pairs of dynamic, symmetrical astronomical movements characterising the tropical signs.

All 'demonstrations' of the validity of topical place systems in genethliacal astrology i have seen to date have relied on a few or several positively chosen example charts coupled with much often verbose justification why this or that system seems particularly coherent in itself and / or less incoherent than others. Faithful reliance on often contradictory 'traditions', the older the better, is also frequently practised. Although one may doubt the possibility of absolute verification of anything, even extensive relative validations of topical place systems based on say 250 or more randomly selected Rodden AA nativities do not yet, to my knowledge exist to date, let alone with a demonstration of significant probability.

Alas, the ancient Greek philosophical school of the sceptics, summarised well by Sextus Empiricus for example in his "Outlines of Pyrrhonism", has largely been deliberately ignored by proponents of dogmatic schools like Platonism, Neoplatonism, Epicurianism, Aristotelianism and Stoicism.

As in the past, questions about astrological house systems will in the future probably continue to provide many pages and much revenue for astrological authors. For example, the system of clockwise houses extensively proposed by Monsieur Jacques Dorsan and practised by Monsieur Luc Audy and Madame Marie Delclos, has received, perhaps due to lack of requisite language skills, little attention to date amongst astrological authors of the English language.

Best regards,

lihin
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margherita



Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 1369
Location: Rome, Italy

Posted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kenneth Johnson wrote:
I'm having difficulties here with terms like "the correct house system."

The picture is far too complex to be remanded to an almost impossible search for "the one and only" correct system.


With all this incredible diversity. how is it even possible to hypothesize that only one single system can be correct and all the others must be wrong?


I agree with every word. I believe astrologers practicing traditional astrology are like archaelogists. There is no such a thing like the right or the wrong method, there are texts we investigate in order to better understand traditional astrology.

The stuff i'm less persuaded is the empyrical method. I've a great experience about reading every kind of techinques and I generally see that everything works for the author of judgement. Smile

Moreover I noticed that some techiniques seem to better flow with whole sign houses, like profections, others can work very well with house division.

margherita
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