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Essential Dignity-Qualitative or Quantitative?
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James,

With respect I am not sure if you are really getting my point here or not.

We all know there are many factors involved in delineating a chart.

I am basically challenging the usual centrality of essential vs accidental dignity and the point scoring mentality that goes with it. Its basic limitation is that it mixes together qualitative and quantitative factors together as if they are completely synonymous.

Several people here have noted that planetary sect and solar phase can have a qualitative influence on a planet too just like essential dignity.

So I am trying to explore here what factors people see as conveying strength or power to a planet.

Ultimately, I fully accept all this has to be pulled together in a chart interpretation. Still, I think its useful to have a clearer understanding of qualitative and quantitative influences in a chart. Its not a topic that gets as much emphasis as it should in my opinion.

Mark
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi mark,

i think you are correct in that i am not getting it!!

actually - i never really was drawn to the scoring concept to figure things out. all you figure out is how to score things and i have never been convinced it told me much. i think that system was invented for horary, but perhaps some historian can correct me on that too as i have at least a 50/50 chance of being wrong on that as well.. some of us don't mind being wrong, lol..

there are just too many factors to consider and the scoring system doesn't factor them all, or give any insight into why they get scored the way they do - retrograde - being one of many scoring approaches i don't agree with.. i guess this is like coming out and saying i don't agree with lilly, lol.. so be it..the good thing is next to no one will listen to me anyway!

here's an idea was expressed recently - stationary planets - that gets completely shredded or passed over in this essential or accidental dignity approach.. this is one of the many reasons i can't get into the scoring game.
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:
Quote:
i think you are correct in that i am not getting it!!


Ok I expanded my point above while you posted. Just to be clear I am not defending the point scoring approach at all. Quite the opposite!

Nice try to bring in stationary planets. But you had a whole thread devoted to your pet subject. Now its my turn! Laughing

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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james_m



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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i got that mark. thanks! lol the stationary planet comment!- james
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pankajdubey



Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1219
Location: Delhi

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Qualitative degrees have been converted to numerical scales. For reasonable reliable communication.

The Pain score:

http://painconsortium.nih.gov/pain_scales/NumericRatingScale.pdf

they are combined with visual clues:

http://www.mvltca.net/Presentations/mvltca.pdf

If zero is no pain and 10 is the worst you ever had:

crying & 10 = genuine grief.
Very Happy & Zero= geniune relief.
Secret + 10= craving for dope
Lala Happy= got it.


PD
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Yukionna



Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 128

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to ask what you think of the statement that 'the ruler in the house can realize the affairs of that house' so independent of the fact if it is an strong (angular) house or not. I think R.Zoller mentioned that in his course.
I'm asking because it was stated several times that the planet's power to act depends on its angular (or succeedent) position among other things, and that seems to contradict the above statement by Zoller.

On the topic of planetary phase, I always thought that it was mostly a matter of quantity , in accordance with the theory of combustion and under the beams, which is considered by most to be a strong weakening of the planet's power to act, unless it is in domicile, where t is then on its throne, and thus protected against combustion. I don't see an oriental Venus qualitatively weakened, she just has a more active, masculine character. But within 30 degrees of the Sun she does seem to be less able to act.

As far as joys are considered, I'm still hesitant. Saturn in 12 should not be able to act much, as 12 is a very weak house strengthwise, but more often then not, we see lots of trouble arising from this position. That can only be explained if we see joy as an accidental, quantitative strengthening. Or so it seems to me.

Questions upon questions.

Yuki
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Janis Valkovskis



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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi guys

I should say that essential and accidental dignity are not differential but complementary factors. Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating to pour all ingredients (essential and accidental dignity) in a blender and make a cocktail or mush. We should be scrupulous in our choice of ingredients and their right proportion to make a palatable cocktail, I mean a good judgement.

If we interpret a chart, be it a native, event, etc., on average we are dealing with 20% essential and 80% accidental dignity.

Considering the proportion, (1) good and strong essential dignity (house, exaltation) can only mitigate bad accidental debility, (2) bad and strong accidental debility can utterly sweep away good and strong essential dignity or even alter it into a strong and bad accidental debility,(3) good and strong accidental dignity can completely overcome bad essential debility, and (4) strong accidental dignity can extremely boost strong essential dignity.

Example:
We have a day chart with Libra rising and Venus in Taurus, the 8th sign (house). Venus has exceptional essential dignity - apart from the sign, she rules the triplicity. So, the native must be extremely happy with her position... This we put on one side of the balance.

Let' us start putting weight (accidental dignity or rather debility) on the other side of the balance.

Venus is placed in the 8th sign (aversion ASC) which she rules by house and triplicity, making her an unrelenting lady of death and other unpleasant things related to the 8th house. We see that her exceptional essential dignity has altered into a terrible accidental affliction.

Venus is hemmed in by both malefics, which naturally and here by accident pertain to the 8th house. She is aversion to the Sun, the sect luminary.We can put and put accidental debility on the other side of the balance and see that there has nothing left from Venus's essential dignity, instead it has turned into a terrible accidental affliction.

We can't strictly say that essential dignity is a qualitative one but accidental one a quantitative one; everything is relative though.

I would not like to discuss here the relative weight (score) of various accidental factors, as the scoring tables differ from author to author. Perhaps, I would start soon a new thread on this topic trying to make a reasonable hierarchy of various accidental factors.
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lihin



Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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Location: Mount Kailash

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:18 pm    Post subject: How to measure quality? Reply with quote

Good evening,

Perhaps i shall venture to gently rock the boat of the idyllic harmony in this thread by proposing that, like nearly every-thing else, astrological essential planetary debilities and dignities do not consist only of quality. Like quantity, quality is one of the categories forming part of the framework of Aristotle's logic expounded in Organon. One category alone is insufficient to define some-thing.

How are the various essential planetary dignities to be measured, evaluated? In contrast to Hellenistic astrology, Mediaeval (and Indian) astrologies introduced more or less elaborate, complex systems of quantitative evaluation that gradually included accidental as well as essential debilities and honours. Configuration with pivots is an example of the former. Renaissance astrologers, ex. gr. Mr William Lilly, further developed such systems, for example by paying attention that the total points of possible disabilities be identical to the total possible points of possible honours.

The meanings of 'essential' and 'accidental' are directly derived from Aristotle's 'system' that included 'philosophy of nature'.

Best regards,

lihin
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zoidsoft



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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember Robert Schmidt saying that some things such as the finding of the Kurios, that the planet with "more counters" is the captain (for instance). This was not a "weighted" dignity scheme, but simply counting all attributes as equal.
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Kenneth Johnson



Joined: 12 Aug 2012
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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with Curtis that Hellenistic dignities were not weighted -- I have not seen numerical systems "weighing" the dignities before the early Arabic period (700-800 CE). Also, I am not sure that we can resolve essential digities into quality and accidental dignities neatly into quantity. Some of the rather charming descriptions from astrologers such as Bonatti and Ibn Ezra, for example the idea that a planet in its own house is "like a lord in his manor" and an exalted planet is like "an honored guest," seem to have their roots in such qualitative judgment as the Hellenistic term for detirmented planets as being in "exile" (far from home, perhaps punished in a certain way, as when Ovid was exiled to the Black Sea for fooling around with Augustus' daughter).

But sometimes accidental dignities could be qualitative as well. Unfortunatley, I am traveling and far from my library and don't have the exact reference, but see Antigonus of Nicea's interpretation of Hadrian's horoscope, wherein he uses the heliacal rising of (I think) Venus and the Moon to tell us some personal details about the women in Hadrian's life. So this is more than just "strength" or "ability to act" (or, to use Schmidt's term, "to conduct business"). Accidental dignities can be just as qualitative as essential ones.
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Mark
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Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kenneth Johnson wrote:
Quote:
But sometimes accidental dignities could be qualitative as well. Unfortunatley, I am traveling and far from my library and don't have the exact reference, but see Antigonus of Nicea's interpretation of Hadrian's horoscope, wherein he uses the heliacal rising of (I think) Venus and the Moon to tell us some personal details about the women in Hadrian's life. So this is more than just "strength" or "ability to act" (or, to use Schmidt's term, "to conduct business"). Accidental dignities can be just as qualitative as essential ones.


Hello Kenneth,

I find it interesting that you chose solar phase as an example of when an accidental dignity is qualitative.

One could argue solar phase is an essential dignity. Ptolemy certainly considered it as such. He proposed solar phase as the 5th essential dignity.

Quote:
In general the mode of domination is considered as falling under these five forms: when it is trine, house, exaltation, term, and phase or aspect; that is, whenever the place in question is related in one or several or all of these ways to the star that is to be the ruler. Tetrabiblos 3.2


Ptolemy did not use face (decans) as an essential dignity and some medieval astrologers such as Montulmo followed this example.

Personally, though I dont think the essential/accidental dignity distinction is really that helpful in this context of quality vs quantity.

It seems to me that several so called accidental dignities are mostly qualitative in operation. Sect and solar phase immediately come to mind. Houses or places on the other hand seem predominantly quantitative in operation.

I feel its a useful process to think through various accidental dignities and reflect about how they predominantly manifest.

-Sect
-Solar Phase (including combustion)
-Planetary Speed
-Retrograde motion
-House placement
-Aspectual contacts
-Reception
-Fixed Stars
-Nodes
-Lots


Mark
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‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly


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PFN



Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 393
Location: Ouro Preto, Brasil

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say that some confusion steams from the fact that there is a qualitative dimension to the houses as well (Just like a planet, a house can be interpreted in terms of it's angular position and/or by it's essential meaning). The scheme of the houses goes from most particular (1st house) to most alien (6th house) as I understand it. The idea would be that the closest position analog to life, the rising sign on the horizon, would determine one of the rulers of life itself, alongside the natural rulers such as the Sun and Moon. So, in a way, each angular house represents an element that is closer, the succedents represents something close, and the cadents represents something already distant. Also, If it is a dark house, that tells us about a quality of the house as well. This being said, the reason why a Saturn in 12th would be problematic, is not because it is powerfull to act, but because it is a malefic planet in a dark house, so when it acts, seldom, if ever, any good can come of it. A cadent house is not a sealed house, but a less forcefull one. We live in a world where life is possible, because life is more likely than not, still, in the confines of a chart, death and destruction still lurks, and it will manifest itself at some point.

So, each house, inobstant it's angular power, holds several matters, and among these houses are some that are of a quality contrary to the principle of life. And that is why we call them malefic.

About planetary speed, I think it is elusive, because speed affects how fast something can be done, or put another way, how fast something is "born" to this world. A swift planet will solve it's matters faster, by meeting the light of other planets, while a slower planet will deliver later... I'd enjoy further discussion on this point...
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