CA vol I: ch.19 - aspects
Part VI of Deborah Houlding's annotated edition of Lilly's Christian Astrology, covering pages 105-114 |
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Mark
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| Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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Waybread wrote:
| Quote: | | I am wondering if anyone sees an inconclusive outcome on election day, where the winner may not be known for some time, as happened with Gore vs. Bush; given astrologers sitting on both sides of the fence. |
Well as I pointed out earlier here quite a lot of astrologers have predicted an Obama win. Not just the UAC panel. By far the majority. Although Michael O'Reilly has suggested that the left leaning stance of most American astrologers could be influencing their delineations. However, many astrologers think the result will be very tight and the result may be disputed.
There has been lots of astrological speculation on this due to Mercury being retrograde on the day of the election. Quite a few pieces on just that issue alone. Here is Chris Brennan on the subject:
http://politicalastrologyblog.com/2012/08/24/mercury-retrograde-and-the-2012-election/
As Chris points out we have seen Mercury Rx in the two tightest Presidential elections in recent American history: 1960 and 2000. In 1960 Kennedy defeated Nixon by just a few thousand votes. Crucially, Kennedy won the states of Illinois and Texas in both cases by extremely tight margins. Many Republicans believed that Kennedy had benefited from vote fraud, especially in Texas, where Kennedy's running mate Lyndon B. Johnson was Senator, and Illinois, home of Mayor Richard Daley's powerful Chicago political machine. There were also stories of the Mafia assisting the outcome in Chicago. These two states were important because if Nixon had carried both, he would have won the election in the Electoral College. Mind you the thought of Nixon at the helm during a period like the Cuban missile crisis fills me with shudders.
The 2000 Presidential contest again saw Mercury RX on election day. The controversy in the 2000 Presidential election is much better known with the result coming down to one state: Florida and the result ultimately being resolved in the courts.
Chris also discusses the Australian Federal Election in 2010 which occurred while Mercury was Rx and led to a 'hung parliament' where neither of the main parties had overall control. This was the first time this had happened in an Australian election since 1940. In fact both major parties obtained 72 seats. As a result there was a fortnight of negotiation with minor parties and independents to form a government. Eventually, the Australian Labor party formed a minority government with a confidence and supply agreement with the Green MP and some independents.
A very similar situation occurred in the United Kingdom general election in 2010. Again Mercury was retrograde on the day of the election and the result was inconclusive with neither the Conservatives or Labour parties having enough seats to form a majority government. Both parties therefore courted the third party (the Liberal Democrats) and after nearly a week of political wrangling a coalition was negotiated between the Conservative Party and the Liberal Democrat Party. Generally, the first past the post system in Britain does not favour a coalition outcome as the two largest parties tend to get a disproportionate share of seats in proportion to the popular vote. Nevertheless, the UK election in 2010 led to the first coalition government in Britain since 1945.
http://politicalastrologyblog.com/2012/08/24/mercury-retrograde-and-the-2012-election/
| Quote: | | The polls are so close now that the outcome may boil down not only to a handful of "battleground states" but to specific counties and even precincts within those states. A recount takes time and may wind up in a state Supreme Court. |
Quite possibly so. More generally, this will come down to a few crucial states. That is the reality. Hence its not worth Obama campaigning much in California or New York or Romney in Texas or Georgia. These states are solid blue or red respectively. Its the swing states that really count in terms of electoral college votes. As this article below points out Obama starts from a stronger position than Romney in that respect in terms of electoral college votes he effectively has stacked up in safe states. Like Gore in 2000 either Obama or Romney could get more of the popular vote but still lose the election in terms of the electoral College votes. If its very tight either candidate could resort to the courts to challenge results in a particular state.
See the following Map and details on swing states in the Presidential elections:
http://elections.nytimes.com/2012/electoral-map
Click on the states indicated in the map to see how many electoral college votes they carry.
If an American citizen is not of one of the swing states their actual ability to have any effect on the outcome of the Presidential election is minimal.
Mark
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“In nature's infinite book of secrecy a little I can read.” Antony and Cleopatra i.2
Last edited by Mark on Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:25 am; edited 2 times in total |
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james_m
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Location: vancouver island
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:56 am Post subject: |
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regulusastrology was the first one i read who mentioned the mercury station-retro on the election date.. that was back in early may..
http://regulus-astrology.com/pdf/American_Pres_Election_Contests.pdf
lihin, thanks for the links.. to quote from the link
Venus as Morning Star favours the one who holds the crown
that would be obama for this election. fwiw it transits on the midpoint of his a/m on election day as well..
brady went on to say whoever won the 2004 election would hold power for 12 years, so i suppose she has obama winning this as well based on her criteria. mind you back in 2009 she was saying this and it hasn't panned out - "and we are optimistic that it may suggest an end to the crisis in Gaza." |
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margherita
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| Mark wrote: |
There has been lots of astrological speculation on this due to Mercury being retrograde on the day of the election. Quite a few pieces on just that issue alone. Here is Chris Brennan on the subject:
http://politicalastrologyblog.com/2012/08/24/mercury-retrograde-and-the-2012-election/
As Chris points out we have seen Mercury Rx in the two tightest Presidential elections in recent American history: 1960 and 2000. ....
A very similar situation occurred in the United Kingdom general election in 2010. Again Mercury was retrograde on the day of the election and the result was inconclusive with neither the Conservatives or Labour parties having enough seats to form a majority government.
Mark |
It does not work for Italy 
I checked the two last elections.
In 2006 Romano Prodi won on Berlusconi for 24,000 votes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_general_election,_2006
Mercury was in Pisces, but direct.
In 2008 Berlusconi got the absolute majority in the Chamber of Deputies
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_general_election,_2008(in fact without Mrs. Merkel's help we would still be suffering under Berlusconi  ) Mercury was in Aries, combust and direct.
I'm curious to see if the retrograde Mercury rule works for USA again,
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Mark
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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Margherita wrote:
| Quote: | | It does not work for Italy |
Well you haven't shown Mercury Rx in these electoral results. I dont think we are saying that Mercury Rx can only lead to a tight result are we?
I wonder if this is more useful for countries that have a simple plurality system (first past the post) like the USA and UK? Australia also has a basically two party system too and their federal electoral system (house of representatives only) is just a slight variation on first past the post systems.
Most of Europe , like Italy, have proportional representation systems which are much more like to lead to coalitions. Also no disrespect to any Italians here but the majority Italian elections since WWII seem to have had Mercury Rx type quality almost as a default!
The two party systems of USA, Australia and UK have been much more stable and Mercury Rx may rock the boat. I have taken a look quick look at UK general elections. Some very tight results (1929 and 1974 coincide with Mercury Rx). However, the Labour party landslide victory in 1997 also occured during a Mercury Rx phase. 
Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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margherita
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark wrote: | Margherita wrote:
| Quote: | | It does not work for Italy |
Well you haven't shown as Mercury Rx electoral result. I dont think we are saying that Mercury Rx can only lead to a tight result are we?
Most of Europe , like Italy, have proportional representation much more like to lead to coalitions. Also no disrespect but the majority Italian elections since WWII seem to have had Mercury Rx type results almost as a default!
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Since 2006 Italian electoral law is based on a majority system- so you can vote the party which is part of one of the 2 coalitions.
In every case I just wanted to check if the rule would work in Italy too, to be honest i was expecting Mercury being retrograde in 2006 election, because it was the kind of election you were talking about, but unfortunately not.
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pankajdubey
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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I managed to find Zoidsoft aphesis freeware and Ellen Black's article on John Kerry.
Now, I am armed and dangerous
Kerry has never been harmed in Libra or Aquarius terms and maintains status quo.He is likey to be the Secretary of state if Obama wins again.
The elction date for Obama falls in his Libra-Aquarius and Obama's inauguration falls in Libra-Aquarius-Virgo and the L4 jump of Leo to Pisces happens in Feb 2013.
So, Obama wins.
I like this Zodiacal releasing thing- it reminds me so much of the "Kala chakra dasa system" with similar jumps called by various names as "Simhaavalokana(Lion's glance) and "Maandooka(frog's jump etc)" .
https://sites.google.com/site/brihathparashara/Home/bph-11/bph-11krama |
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waybread
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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I understand the bad reputation of Mercury retrograde, but I personally think it is overplayed. All kinds of contracts must get completed, surgeries successfully performed, planes landing on time, and so on during its supposed baleful influence, because Mercury goes retrograde so frequently. The press would obviously be reporting a complete stand-still of everyday business practices and communications if this retrograde problem always applied.
I can't recall where I read this, but one (modern) astrologer suggested that Mercury retrograde natives may actually do better when transiting Mercury goes retrograde. During those times, we're more attuned to its movements, supposedly.
I note that Mitt Romney has Mercury retrograde, while Obama's Mercury is direct.
margherita, you raise a good point about whether the Mercury retrograde problem applies to other countries' elections. But maybe it does explain why non-Italians are sometimes prone to see Italian politics as less orderly than governments in the Anglo countries? |
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margherita
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| waybread wrote: |
margherita, you raise a good point about whether the Mercury retrograde problem applies to other countries' elections. But maybe it does explain why non-Italians are sometimes prone to see Italian politics as less orderly than governments in the Anglo countries? |
Because they are so
But even in Italy there is a difference between a landslide victory like Berlusconi's ones in 2001 and especially in 2008 and winning for 24,000 votes out of 38,000,000 voting people like Prodi in 2006.
We should only wait and see what the retrograde Mercury will bring to Americans, if the rule works for them this time too...
margherita
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lihin
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:45 pm Post subject: More complete delineation appropriate? |
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Good evening,
May i suggest that it might be worthwhile and appropriate in the context of the US elections next month to go a bit deeper into the other astrological data that condition 'Mercury retrograde'?
Examples might be:
1. How is Mercury configured in the vernal and autumn tropical solar ingresses of 2012, set to Washington DC, USA, including all Mediaeval honours and debilities, essential and accidental?
2. How is Mercury configured in the foundation chart of the USofA, perhaps using Dr H's (Regulus Astrology) rectified time or a better one?
3. Aside from becoming retrograde, how will Mercury be configured on election day at 12h00 local time in Washington DC or at a time deemed more appropriate?
As far as i can see (errors and omissions excepted), when He goes retrograde at 23h04 UT on 6 November 2012 (Washington DC) He will be in sect but not in hayizz, debilitated, opposed to the ascendant, conjunct the malefic fixed stars Akrab and Dschubba, of southern ecliptical latitude, slow, ruled by Jupiter (also retrograde) and in mutual reception with Him by rulership and triplicity, in His triplicity with co-rulers Sun and Saturn, in Jupiter's Egyptian bound and in His own (MER) face. He 'faces Helios' (see parallel thread).
His aspects by signs will be conjunct Mars, opposition Jupiter, trine waning (thus malefic), debilitated Moon, sextile Venus. He will be averse to Saturn and Sun, two of His triplicity rulers.
It seems to me perhaps presumptuous to judge 'Mercury goes retrograde' without having considered such data. Relatively little astrological attention has apparently been focussed on the outcomes of the elections to the US Congress that will substantially determine the possible effectiveness of the next government of the USofA.
Best regards,
lihin
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Last edited by lihin on Sun Oct 14, 2012 7:36 pm; edited 6 times in total |
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zoidsoft
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| pankajdubey wrote: |
The elction date for Obama falls in his Libra-Aquarius and Obama's inauguration falls in Libra-Aquarius-Virgo and the L4 jump of Leo to Pisces happens in Feb 2013.
So, Obama wins. |
Would you care to explain your logic? It does not appear this cut and dried to me.
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pankajdubey
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| zoidsoft wrote: | | pankajdubey wrote: |
The elction date for Obama falls in his Libra-Aquarius and Obama's inauguration falls in Libra-Aquarius-Virgo and the L4 jump of Leo to Pisces happens in Feb 2013.
So, Obama wins. |
Would you care to explain your logic? It does not appear this cut and dried to me. |
Well!
It goes like this-
1.The subject (Kerry) and the method (Zodiacal releasing) respond to each other.
2.The changes in Kerry's life based on ZR technique are quite marked.
3.Kerry, is not in one of those detrimental phases till until after the Presidential election.
4.Till that time Kerry's situation will improve (Secretary of State).
5.For that to happen, Obama will have to win.
6.Once Obama wins, Kerry's own luck takes over and the Leo to Pisces jump takes its effect.
7.By that time, Obama is the President for next 4 years. |
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lihin
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:12 am Post subject: Alternatives? |
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Good morning,
Perhaps Mr Kerry, upon the possible loss of elections by Mr Obama, might obtain an excellent position in the private economy earning several times his current income.
It would seem that all of Mr Obama's ministers' charts would have to be evaluated in order to attempt a conclusion like Mr Pankajdubey's. Even then, the conclusion might be erroneous due to the frequency of advantageous transfers of key personnel from the public to the private sector and vice versa in the USofA.
In my humble opinion, based only on astrology Mercury is considerably more likely than not to function differently in Italy than in the USofA.
Best regards,
lihin
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pankajdubey
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: Alternatives? |
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| lihin wrote: | Good morning,
Perhaps Mr Kerry, upon the possible loss of elections by Mr Obama, might obtain an excellent position in the private economy earning several times his current income.
It would seem that all of Mr Obama's ministers' charts would have to be evaluated in order to attempt a conclusion like Mr Pankajdubey's. Even then, the conclusion might be erroneous due to the frequency of advantageous transfers of key personnel from the public to the private sector and vice versa in the USofA.
In my humble opinion, based only on astrology Mercury is considerably more likely than not to function differently in Italy than in the USofA.
Best regards,
lihin |
Thanks.
And the Astrology is ?? |
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Mark
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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Lihin wrote:
| Quote: | | May I suggest that it might be worthwhile and appropriate in the context of the US elections next month to go a bit deeper into the other astrological data that condition 'Mercury retrograde'? |
Fair point. I have personally been researching Mercury in American election charts back to 1856 (the first election the Republican party contested). I will post up my results later.
| Quote: | Examples might be:
1. How is Mercury configured in the vernal and autumn tropical solar ingresses of 2012, set to Washington DC, USA, including all Mediaeval honours and debilities, essential and accidental? |
I plan to post up both charts too. Although you could post them yourself and delineate them if they really interest you? Do you know how to post charts? It makes threads more interesting rather than just paragraphas of text.
| Quote: | | 2. How is Mercury configured in the foundation chart of the USofA, perhaps using Dr H's (Regulus Astrology) rectified time or a better one? |
Well thats the Holy Grail of American mundane astrology isn't it? We had an epic thread on Skyscript on that exact topic some years back. However, it just went to prove the myriad of options for a 'foundational chart'. There is no consensus. I personally agree with Benjamin Dykes that from a legal point of view the USA began in 1789 not 1776. The various 4th of July charts tell us about American national identity. However, the institutions of the modern USA : The Presidency, House of Representatives, Senate, Supreme Court and the constitution all date from 1789. I tend to use 2 charts for American government. The USA Constitution chart (from the date the constitution took legal effect-00:00 hours 4th March 1789) and the |Presidential chart, from the date and time of the inauguration of the first President George Washington on April 30th 1789. However, I do find the Sibly chart useful too.
I dont really, want to open the thread up to full a debate on which chart is the 'correct one'. It would distract from the topic of this thread too much. Your welcome to open a thread on this elsewhere if you like. Personally, I have found it a fruitless discussion. Much better to just to post your own analysis and research with a chart you use and trust.
I plan to post up the version of the Presidential chart I use. Its interesting not just to time events but also to see if prospective candidates nativities tie into it. I should state I think subsequent research has shown the time of 12:45pm quoted by Nicholas Campion in Book of World Horoscopes is far too early. I work with a rectified time of 1.20pm. This has Virgo rising and a Gemini MC. This in part goes to to explain the particular sensitivity of the USA to Mercury placements in Presidential elections.
| Quote: | | 3. Aside from becoming retrograde, how will Mercury be configured on election day at 12h00 local time in Washington DC or at a time deemed more appropriate? |
Thanks for your systematic listing. What do you think it actually means for the candidates though?
Mark
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lihin
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:00 pm Post subject: More |
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Good afternoon,
Meanwhile i have added three charts above and more information.
Frankly, may one express reservations about publishing mundane delineations on such topics? Humans generally identify intensely with their countries and their political parties, harbour strong patriotic feelings, are subject to more or less indoctrinating inland mass media, etc. "My country right or wrong" is an example of what arises. Foreigners tend to have images of other countries - in this particular case of the USofA - which seldom match those of the citizens wearing rose-coloured eye-glasses.
One may recall that leading British astrologers predicted peace in 1939 although the ingress charts permitted other conclusions.
If one applies astrological knowledge, particularly of the planet Hermes - who symbolises both scribes and thieves -, to the charts' data, stark delineations emerge suggesting that - even and specially in the USA - politics are very far from being as clean and transparent as one would like or pretend. One example amongst many of astrological data leading to such delineations is the two malefic fixed stars Hermes in conjoined to on 6 November. Detailed descriptions would probably provoke useless polemics. Discretion is less imprudent.
In my humble opinion Mark has mentioned the valid difference between events underpinning a country's myths and sense of common identity, and those establishing its structures. The former more indicate the dream, the latter the reality. Here is a tropical chart of the entry of the Constitution of the USofA into effect on 4 March 1789 set to New York, NY.
Here are a table of honours and a list of the calculations, essential and accidental, according to W. Lilly's point system, and a list of partile conjunctions with bright fixed stars:
Dignity Calculations (scheme William Lilly)
1789-03-04, 0h00 LMT, New York, NY, USA
Mercury in mutual reception to Mars by triplicity
Mercury +3
Mars +3
Saturn is peregrine -5
Saturn is in house 5 +3
Saturn is direct +4
Saturn is swift +2
Saturn is oriental +2
Saturn is combust -5
Jupiter is exalted ruler of its sign +4
Jupiter is in house 9 +2
Jupiter is retrograde -5
Jupiter is slow -2
Jupiter is occidental -2
Jupiter is free of suns beams +5
Mars is peregrine -5
Mars is in house 4 +4
Mars is direct +4
Mars is swift +2
Mars is oriental +2
Mars is under suns beams -4
Sun is peregrine -5
Sun is in house 5 +3
Sun is swift +2
Venus is peregrine -5
Venus is in house 4 +4
Venus is direct +4
Venus is swift +2
Venus is oriental -2
Venus is free of suns beams +5
Mercury is peregrine -5
Mercury is in its detriment -5
Mercury is in its fall -4
Mercury is in house 5 +3
Mercury is retrograde -5
Mercury is slow -2
Mercury is occidental +2
Mercury is under suns beams -4
Moon is peregrine -5
Moon is in house 8 -2
Moon is free of suns beams +5
Moon is waxing +2
Partile Conjunctions with Bright Fixed Stars
Moon conjunct Hyades 0 15'
Venus conjunct Deneb Algedi 0 13'
Venus conjunct Sadalsuud 0 22'
Saturn conjunct Achernar 0 34'
Ascendant conjunct Rigel Kentaurus 0 20'
Here are two relevant tropical equinoctial ingresses:
Best regards,
lihin
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Last edited by lihin on Sun Oct 14, 2012 12:55 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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