skyscript.co.uk
   

home articles forum events
glossary horary quiz consultations links more

Read this before using the forum
Register
FAQ
Search
View memberlist
View/edit your user profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
Recent additions:
Book III of Carmen Astrologicum by Dorotheus
translated by David Pingree
Notes on Dorotheus III: the haylāj, Kadhkhudāh, and terms of life
by Deborah Houlding
Godfather of Modernity: The Alan Leo Legacy Vol. One - Early Astrological Journals 1890-1912, compiled by Philip M Graves
Reviewed by Deborah Houlding
Lilly's Considerations
compiled by D. Houlding

Skyscript Astrology Forum

7th house

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 323
Location: Lemuria

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:56 am    Post subject: 7th house Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by varuna2 on Sat May 04, 2013 7:34 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Pisces_girl



Joined: 14 May 2011
Posts: 25
Location: Europe

Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:13 pm    Post subject: Re: 7th house Reply with quote

varuna2 wrote:
If there are planets sitting on the Descendant degree or somewhere that would generally be considered to be the 7th house, does this mean the native gives those planetary significations to others? Or does it mean other people give those planetary significations to the native? And if it is both, then how to determine which way it goes and when?


Hi Varuna,

I think your question is very interesting.

Unfortunately, I'm not qualified to answer it. My guess would be that those planetary significations are achieved through others (i. e. partnerships). Also for the sole presence of planets in this house, 7th house matters are emphasized in the life of the native.

I hope someone with more experience or astrological knowledge gives you a better answer.


Pisces
_________________
One in many births, a single ocean holder of all streams of movement, sees our hearts.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 323
Location: Lemuria

Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by varuna2 on Sat May 04, 2013 7:34 am; edited 2 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1381

Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

. . .

Last edited by ### on Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4199
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kirk wrote:
Quote:
When talking about the chart native I think the focus needs to remain on the other side of the chart with the rising sign, its ruler, and any first house planets. Add the Sun and Moon and you have a good idea of what themes and stories will be lived by the native. All investigating into relating with others starts there............

The 7th house is more descriptive of others and circumstances, therefore it's not a matter of giving anything away but of experiencing a 7th house planet through others.


Fair enough if we accept the medieval and renaissance outlook in western astrology. However, the perspective of ancient astrology was different. Although associated with marriage the 7th house didn't have links to 'others' in a vague generic sense. There was also no notion of the 7th being about 'open enemies'. That is another distinctly medieval idea. However, the 7th house did have other meanings restricted to the native such as old age, death, and foreign places.

To the ancients the 7th was seen as a weakening place though and often called 'the setting place.' Hence it was often linked to old age and death (along with the 8th) when the vitality of the native was fading just like the setting Sun. The 8th house was more about the literal process or circumstances of dying though while the native was still alive.

The angles were often used to describe stages of a person's life in diurnal order. 1st =early life, 10th=mid life, 7th=later life, 4th=your legacy after death. Hence you see astrologers like Paulus delineate Moon in the 7th as a sign you will spend your later life in another country since the Moon is the natural significator of the home. Similarly, Rhetorius delineates Jupiter in the 7th as an indication of a long life, few children, and wealth and happiness coming later in life. Jupiter is of course the natural significator of wealth and children. Rhetorius delineates Venus in the 7th as a possible indication the native will marry a younger woman and marry late. Aside from the last example these delineations dont relate to 'others'.

In his article on the house meanings in hellenistic astrology (Facets of Fate) Robert Schmidt has written:

Quote:
7th house
Marriage or Sexual Union; Wife; Travel Abroad; Death. The Medieval tradition here makes much about Enmity, Hostility, and Contention, which Hellenistic astrologers reserve for the 6th and which seems to be clearly derived from the opposition of the 7th to the 1st; it generalizes marriage to include any sort of partnership, again without precedent; the theme of death is lacking


I tend to work with the house meanings somewhat more liberally myself but I do think the focus on old age, death and foreign travel provide more depth to our understanding of this house. Indian astrology seems to have retained more of the ancient associations of this house than medieval and renaissance western astrology.

Mark
_________________
''Man is troubled not by events, but by the meaning he gives them"

Epictetus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1381

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

. . .

Last edited by ### on Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4199
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But the symbolism through the visual effect is too good and too effective to ignore.


Hi Kirk,

I see your problem with the term 'weakening'. Yes its an angular house so that implies power. The medieval astrologers removed that apparent paradox by removing the death association of this house altogether. All I can think is that here the power shifts away from the circumstances of the natives birth somewhere else i.e. self-partner, youth-old age, home-abroad, life-death. I cannot think anything more inimical to life ie the 1st house than death itself. So the concept of opposition is very strongly retained here. Arguably, the ancient scheme makes more sense than the medieval approach which lumps partners , friends and enemies into the 7th. Although anyone who has been divorced or through a nasty relationship breakdown might find this resonating with their previous relationships turning sour. Smile Valens also introduces the idea of close friends to the 7th.

In the ancient scheme enemies belonged in houses which were in aversion (aka inconjunct) to the 1st (6th and 12th) symbolising their hostility and total lack of understanding towards the native.

Still, I dont work for the Hellenistic Inquisition! If you dont find the logic convincing your at liberty to reject it. Its interesting though that Indian astrology retains the idea of change of residence and possible death in regards this house. Similarly, Indian astrology also assigns enemies to the 6th rather than the 7th house.

I am sure you are well aware that a lot of our house meanings derive from the diurnal motion of the Sun. This is explained by Deborah Houlding in her book Houses: Temples of the Sky. So the symbolism behind the house meaning is quite naturalistic in terms of the setting sun=the end of life or old age. This is obviously when the physical vitality of the native is at its weakest.

Anyway, chew on these further comments from Robert Schmidt on the 7th house from his article cited above:

Quote:
7th The "immergence" of the native. As the birth or genesis associated with the 1st place is emergence from invisibility and the familiarity of the mother's womb into the strangeness of the light, so dusis is the key Greek word for the 7th for, emergence comes from a Latin word that literally means 'to plunge out of', whereas dusis comes from a Greek word that means 'to plunge into', which is"immergence." Although it is hard to find a neat English term derived from bearing or carrying that connotes the opposite of "being born," the range of meanings in the Greek verb dun perfectly conveys this opposition. The verb dun means to set or plunge into the womb of the ocean, retiring from life and light into darkness and obscurity, which is a standard metaphor for death. It also means to enter into a strange foreign country and live there, to merge with the foreign inhabitants, another primary meaning of the 7th. Again, it means to penetrate into a body, like a sword thrust, and, in our astrological context,refers to the sex act itself, where the man enters the womb of a woman in intercourse, or merges with her in marriage. Here, and not in the 8th, the phrase "little death" may be appropriate. Valens also considers the 7th a place of friends, presumably as those with whom we merge and form especially close bonds.


Mark
_________________
''Man is troubled not by events, but by the meaning he gives them"

Epictetus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
###



Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 1381

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

. . .

Last edited by ### on Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mark
Moderator


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 4199
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Kirk,

Quote:
The houses have acquired their significations and strength to a large extent through their relationship to the Ascendant.


Yes certainly. Although I think house meanings derive from 3 main sources

1 Relationship to Ascendant-both diurnal and zodiacal.
2 Diurnal motion of the planets -Links to Egyptian solar Mysticism
3 The Planetary joys

I have also seen arguments that the Thema mundi is a source for house meanings too but I am not sure if this was the chicken or the egg.

The very notion of angularity arguably in part originally relates to the sun as it traverses the four angles. However, while the 7th is angular it also sits in opposition to the ASC. Arguably the opposition is the most difficult of the aspects. It is the power of this house that makes it a threat to life. The 6th brings illness but not necessarily death due to its cadency.

So in short this house is not 'weak' but its very strong oppositional power can 'weaken' the native.

Incidentally, I should just make the point that the original formulation of houses was most probably whole sign houses. So the Sun could literallly sink below the horizon in the 7th. This association makes much less sense if you judging the 7th using quadrant houses.

Mark
_________________
''Man is troubled not by events, but by the meaning he gives them"

Epictetus
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
varuna2



Joined: 20 Feb 2012
Posts: 323
Location: Lemuria

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

delete

Last edited by varuna2 on Sat May 04, 2013 7:35 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
Posts: 1836
Location: vancouver island

Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

another interesting conversation with many different ideas. thanks!
my 2c
i see the ascendant as a point of high subjectivity and the descendant one of greater objectivity. it is thru an opposition and the tension implied by an opposition that we arrive at some type of consciousness or greater awareness of ourselves.. the ascendant seems to be a place of spontaneity that doesn't include the thought of others, or how others might perceive our actions which is how i think of the 7th. the idea of 'others' or someone other then us would seem to be captured in ideas associated with the descendant and by extension the 7th house area. i am with mark in not thinking quadrant but whole sign for houses when i say all this.

i seem to recall both freud and jung having sun/uranus in the 7th and also the idea of this being a type of astrologers placement if you think of the idea that some type of awakening is possible thru interaction with an astrologer, or that the astrologer acts as a type of vehicle for the awakening of another.. and, of course this goes back to my idea (probably not my idea, but someone elses!) that the ascendant is a point of subjectivity, while the descendant is one of greater objectivity. it is only thru relationships with others that we gain a greater perspective, to the point that relationships are a path to greater consciousness in whatever form they take..
i have venus close to the descendant and in an opposition to my moon which is close to the ascendant in my chart.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Nativities & General Astrology All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
. Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

       
Contact Deborah Houlding  | terms and conditions  
All rights on all text and images reserved. Reproduction by any means is not permitted without the express
agreement of Deborah Houlding or in the case of articles by guest astrologers, the copyright owner indictated