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primary directions verses solar arc directions
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james_m



Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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Location: vancouver island

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ed,

take what is useful and leave the rest... i offered in in a spirit of trying to be helpful, like you have been to me in the past.. if it is of no help - ignore it....
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Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Location: Ipswich, MA USA

Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
ed,

take what is useful and leave the rest... i offered in in a spirit of trying to be helpful, like you have been to me in the past.. if it is of no help - ignore it....


My comments were definitely not in the spirit of insulting you. Keep on keeping on.

- Ed
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

let me try to unravel something for myself then and perhaps others here will have some useful ideas to offer on this...

as i understand it a chart is static - fixed - based off a time that is considered of significance - birth of a person and etc. etc.

to talk about directing a planet, but not the angles baffles me.. perhaps there is some rationale for moving some of the points in the chart but not others, so i am curious if someone could articulate this for me... let me add, that i don't ask this based on what was done in the past, so much as understanding the rationale behind it.. thanks!
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Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

james_m wrote:
let me try to unravel something for myself then and perhaps others here will have some useful ideas to offer on this...

as i understand it a chart is static - fixed - based off a time that is considered of significance - birth of a person and etc. etc.

to talk about directing a planet, but not the angles baffles me.. perhaps there is some rationale for moving some of the points in the chart but not others, so i am curious if someone could articulate this for me... let me add, that i don't ask this based on what was done in the past, so much as understanding the rationale behind it.. thanks!


Suppose we decide for some reason that one sidereal day reflects one tropical year (this is one kind of "secondary" direction). And to keep it astronomical, we consider the tropical motion of the sun and the sidereal motion of some reference point on the equator, say the RAMC.

So to determine a progressed event, we can look at a transit event and determine how far the sun has moved in celestial longitude since the radix, including cycles. We can now move the natal RAMC the same number of degrees, and find out when that occurs to determine the progressed time. Erect a chart for this event time and the location of the native at the time. Note that the RAMC moves through 360 degrees of right ascension between two solar returns. Not naibod, solar arc or any such measure in advance of the natal RAMC.

IMO, this is a correct secondary progressed chart, using the "quotidian" method of moving the cusps.

The conventional method is to separate the calculation of the planets' positions, which are done as above (with some variation), and to use a distinct method for the cusps. As far as I can tell this became popular in the late 19th and early 20th century as a shortcut to seeing PDs to the cusps in a secondary progressed chart. But the resulting pseudo PDs (conjunctions to cusps) are way off in their timing.

- Ed
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james_m



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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ed, your example relates to secondary progressions.

i don't use 1 day = 1 year - secondary progressions..

i do use 1 degree = 1 year - solar arc directions..

4'= 1 year - i understand to be primary directions..

i continue to question why it's okay to direct the planets, but not okay to direct the angles using primary directions.. maybe it is not something simple, and the reason i am not able to understand this is my failure to understand the astronomy of it. i still maintain the chart is static.. transits aren't static.. directions and progressions of various sorts on the other hand are symbolic... i think it is a good question to ask how they relate astronomically also...
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Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, we're on different wavelengths here. Onward...
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Martin wrote:
Quote:
The angles, having no secondary motion, cannot be directed using secondary directions (which is what Placidus called them); and as Placidus accepted only the five Ptolemaic significators, he was left with only the Sun and Moon to direct in this fashion. He may perhaps have considered the secondary directions of some other planet in the relatively rare instances where such a planet would qualify as hyleg according to Ptolemy's criteria; but I can't recall seeing an instance of this (perhaps Margherita would know?).


I remember being really confused by the angles in SP charts for ages. Why if the system was based on day for a year did the angles not move faster? Confused Noone else I spoke to seemed to know why this was so either.

In the pre-internet era it took me a while to find a source explaining the angles of the chart are moving through primary not secondary motion. As has been suggested the marriage of the two is not really logically consistent. If one is going to use SPs as a self consistent system it seems more logical to progress the angles at the same rate as the planets. I assume this is how the technique of Quotidian secondary progessions developed. I have never used that particular technique but it does sound interesting with the degrees of the angles changing on a daily basis.

''Quotidian” comes from the Latin word for “daily” and refers to the daily motion of the Midheaven. In a 24-hour period, the Midheaven doesn’t move just 1 degree; it moves 360 degrees. In other words, during the day/year of the progressed chart, the houses will have made a complete cycle just as they do in real time. While the planets don’t move any faster in a Quotidian Secondary Progressed chart, they do change houses and contact the house cusps, and this is could presumably pick up significant events.

My current Solar Fire software doesn't seem to calculate Quotidian secondary progressions. Any other suggestions on software that does? I would really like to try these out! Smile

Mark
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Last edited by Mark on Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:25 am; edited 2 times in total
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

James_M wrote:
Quote:
in everything i read of alan leo, i don't recall the system of solar arc directions or 1 degree = 1 year being presented.. 1 day = 1 year is the basis for the popular term 'secondary progressions' which are different then secondary directions... to my knowledge alan leo was working with sec progs, not solar arc directions... some of the terminology can be similar which makes it a bit confusing..


It was a group of British astrologers -Vivian Robson, Sepharial and later Charles Carter that really popularised solar arcs. However, they described them as 'the radix system'. Their version varied slightly from the popular version of solar arcs used today since they progressed the chart a standard 1 degree annually in all cases rather than accounting for the variable daily motion of the Sun throughout the year. They also varied from a lot of modern astrologers like Tyl in looking at trines and sextiles not just the hard aspects.

Mark
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‘’As thou conversest with the heavens, so instruct and inform thy minde according to the image of Divinity…’’ William Lilly


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james_m



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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark,

i have solarfire 7.3.1
in the preferences menu -> edit settings ->progs/dirns -> you will see a drop down menu with options SA in RA, SA in Long, Naibod in RA, Naibod in Long and finally Mean in Quotidan... not sure if this is the same as what is under discussion or if you have a version 7.3 or not, but this is an option i have on my version of solarfire..

thanks for the info on solar arc directions history.. i see carter mentioning this in the zodiac of the soul 1928.. i wonder when this system actually originated?
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Mark
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi James,

Thanks. I think my version of SF is a bit older than yours but I will check that out. I was actually fishing around for other software options too though. Does Kepler do this?

Regarding the history of Solar Arcs we already had an excellent thread devoted to that. Some really great contributions in there if you read it all. Actually, I just realised I forgot to mention Simmonite as another British populariser of this in the 19th century. However, I still think Kepler may have been doing something very similar to solar arcs.

http://skyscript.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2817

Mark
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Martin Gansten
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread has certainly been very active since yesterday!

james_m wrote:
here is an overview from noel tyls book intro on solar arcs that you might find interesting[...]

I have that book, and I really have to warn against believing anything Tyl says about primary directions (which he doesn't understand, or at least didn't at the time of writing that book) or about the history of astrology (on which he seems singularly ill-informed).

James: the point about the angles is that the planets have two kinds of motion (primary and secondary), the angles only one (primary). As the earth rotates around its axis, the angles appear to move around the zodiac (or rather, the zodiac across the angles), and the planets appear to rise, culminate, set, etc. This is the basis of primary directions. But the planets also have their own, much slower motion along the zodiac (in the opposite direction of the primary motion), and this is the basis of secondary directions (which are now called secondary progressions).
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Atlantean



Joined: 14 Aug 2009
Posts: 396

Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello

Interesting to read these comments on these important, but often misused/misunderstood techniques...

Re: James, as far as that Tyl quote, I can't even start to comment on its distortions.

Yes, using Primary Directions is not an easy technique (compared to Solar Arcs), not the least of which is requiring a super-accurate birthtime. Still, anyone that says that they don't work with great precision is just plain wrong.

Example:



I've listed 15 events and 30 connected Primary Directions. The combined orb of all of these Primary Directions is 1° 47' or an average orb of 0° 3' of arc.

I've examined the Solar Arcs for these events and not only do they not get you "in the ballpark" (in terms of appropriate aspects and ORB), they don't get you close to the state containing the city containing the ballpark. Wink I don't wish to make the discussion more polemic...the Solar Arcs vs. Primary Directions initiation of the thread has already established the theme of contrast and compare.

All my data is available on request for those who would care to do a similar study (using Solar Arcs) to what I have done (using Topocentric Primary Directions).

Peace

James
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Atlantean



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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for the Secondary Progressions (with angles progressed by Sun's movement in Right Ascension), they also work very, very well.

Some examples from another chart (rectified 7 seconds from Birth Certificate time)...

Death of Great Grandfather, Sun conjunct Pluto 7'

Death of other Great Grandfather, Moon conjunct 8th 7'

Death of Great Grandmother, 8th conjunct Venus 2'

Birth of Sister, Mercury sesquisquare 3rd 3'

Death of Grandmother, IC sesquisquare Saturn 1'

Death of Grandfather, MC square Pluto 2'

Birth of Son, 5th sesquisquare Moon 5'

Marriage, Moon conjunct Sun 7'

Death of Father, Sun trine Saturn 1'

The average orb of these very appropriately symbolized progressions is less than 0° 4'.

Re: Solar Arcs

...

Peace

James
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Ed F



Joined: 22 Jan 2008
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark wrote:

''Quotidian” comes from the Latin word for “daily” and refers to the daily motion of the Midheaven. In a 24-hour period, the Midheaven doesn’t move just 1 degree; it moves 360 degrees. In other words, during the day/year of the progressed chart, the houses will have made a complete cycle just as they do in real time. While the planets don’t move any faster in a Quotidian Secondary Progressed chart, they do change houses and contact the house cusps, and this is could presumably pick up significant events.

My current Solar Fire software doesn't seem to calculate Quotidian secondary progressions. Any other suggestions on software that does? I would really like to try these out! Smile

Mark


The key idea that changed my perspective on progressions and direction (and profections) was that all of these methods are symbolic time methods based on correlating astrological frames of reference. Once that sinks in, you realize that the emphasis of the method is determination of an earlier time that says something about a transit time in the native's life. Chart construction should then be done as usual, though we might compare different kinds of coordinates (eg mundane vs zodiacal) depending on their velocity for a given kind of symbolic time.

For example, a secondary progression is a correlation between earth and solar frames of reference. The progressed time could be determined by measuring the celestial longitude of the sun between radix and transit, then moving the radix RAMC the same number of degrees in RA, giving the LST of the progressed time at the radix location, and so the UTC and date. Then draw the secondary progressed chart for that UTC and the location of the native at the progressed time.

A similar approach can be used for tertiary (Moon/Earth) and minor progressions (Sun/Moon).

Then it get interesting. A kind of primary direction can be calculated by a double application of the secondary progression method: move the natal RAMC the same number of degrees as the secondary progressed sun to determine a "directed" time. Calculate a chart normally, and compare either mundane or the mundane projections of the zodiacal positions to those of the radix.

This is also called a primary progressed chart.

A similar approach applying two different pairs of reference frames give an approximation to the usual profections.

This approach does not give results exactly coinciding with the various conventional methods, but the results are within the range of variation of them. And there is a rather nice logic to it.

As far as SF is concerned, I do not have it, but I thought someone said you could do the quotidian progression of the angles with it. Janus 4 supports doing so.

- Ed
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james_m



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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mark,

thanks for the link to the other thread on solar arc directions and history... i found it didn't really get the answer in a definitive sense, but i enjoyed reading the thread... andrews comments were interesting.. i found it interesting his thinking antisica was more valuable for use in predictive chart reading then the 45 degree aspect... i was just looking at dr petoits chart earlier today - jan 17 1897 auxerre france 2:51am 21 scorpio ascendant.. i find the 45/135 aspect set extremely useful and yes they were popularized by ebertin and his rather large influence on a number of astrologers today.. if you look at this doctor/murderer from france who was beheaded in 1946 i believe, you will note the stationary mars closely conj pluto in a 135 to his natal sun all fairly close... i suppose one could get at the darkness to the chart a few ways, but avoiding the use of 45 or 135 is just not something i would do... on the other hand, i respect those who feel the need to simplify all the data by lessening the number of aspects they use..

at any rate, i found the the thread worthwhile reading so thanks for sharing it.

martin,

thanks for your comments... both you and ed seem to want to take tyl to task for his comments.. that is fine! i have no attachment but only pointed them out as i thought he might have said something useful to offer in getting at the basis for the use of solar arc directions... i thought the comment about the connection of sepharial to bonatis deserved some consideration and wondered if bonatis at any point discusses what sepharial seems to have used - a type of solar arc direction by the sound of it according to the data in tyls forward to his book - solar arcs, which is down near the bottom of what i shared.. this is why i asked if someone was familiar with bonatis work if they could comment at the top.. at any rate it seems the name tyl threw the both of you off!

i do understand the basis of the movement of the angles - clockwise movement as opposed to the movement of planets along the ecliptic but thank you for articulating this as it emphasizes something i want to talk about.. it seems one issue of the use of these different techniques primary verses solar arc has to do with the fact one is based on a real type of motion, as opposed to a symbolic one that is not based on anything directly connected to the movements, other then the movement of the sun... this i understand, but don't hold a strong position on philosophically.. i see the difference, but from my point of view i want to value what works from a predictive point, as opposed to a basis in nature that seems coherent.. maybe i haven't articulated that quite right, but it gets at what i am putting at the top of my priority for use of anything in astrology..

i continue to see the use of the word progression and direction being interchanged in a way that seems to create some confusion over these terms.. secondary progressions aren't the same as solar arc directions, but it seems the 2 systems get lumped into the same box as progressions or directions.. perhaps i am misunderstanding how some folks use these terms and stuck in the way i am used to using them.. thanks for your comments either way and by the way - i am enjoying your book on primary directions.. it is clearly laid out and i like that!

atlantean,

thanks for your comments.. i would just like to comment on this from your post "Still, anyone that says that they don't work with great precision is just plain wrong." if you read the link that ed f provided to the connections article by rumun kolov page 56 to the end you will note that lilly seems to uses primary directions in a window of time that is much wider then the manner if which you appear to be using the primary direction data... you might enjoy reading that article that ed f left.. here is the link to it again. http://issuu.com/considerations/docs/14-1
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